I need help to understand what happened...

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JohnyVape

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Aug 18, 2017
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Hi Guys,

I made some juice and before, usually I'm succesful with VGPG 50/50, but last month I tried doing VGPG 80/20, the end result had a very strong menthol feel, eventhough I did not put any menthol concentrate on it.

4000ML
Strawnana 0mg
PG 720
VG 2800
Strawberry 360
Banana 120

Please help me understand what happened.
Thank you in advance!
 
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IDJoel

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Welcome to ECF @JohnyVape!
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Sorry to hear you are having troubles. What brand, or brands, of flavor concentrates are you using in the problem recipe? Different flavor manufacturer's flavors, can taste different, even when they have the same name.

On the surface, I don't see anything about your ingredients that looks like they should be imparting a menthol taste.

Have you vaped any e-liquids that had menthol in them since you last changed you wick? Menthol can linger for quite some time and influence the taste of other e-liquids that follow. If this is the case, change your wick, and taste your problem mix again.

On the same principle; did you use any measuring equipment (syringes, pipettes, beakers, graduated cylinders, mixing bottles, etc.), that has had menthol (especially menthol concentrate) in it previously? Without complete cleaning, it is possible the menthol residue, used in a previous recipe, has contaminated your current mix. Plastics are particularly hard to get truly clean.

I have dedicated syringes, and pipettes that I use only for menthol and mints. Same for my plastic bottles; once menthol goes in it, I mark the bottom of the bottle with a permanent marker, and then never use that bottle for anything other than menthol-containing recipes again.:)

If you are certain that contamination is not possible; I would start testing the individual ingredients. If you would like suggestions on how to go about doing that, let me know, and I will be happy to go into detail.

Also, as a side note (that shouldn't have anything to do with the menthol taste), I don't think you actually made a 20PG/80VG mix. I think you are more likely at 30PG/70VG unless your flavor concentrates are VG based (PG based concentrates are still the majority of the market).

PG 720 (18% of 4000)
VG 2800 (70% of 4000)
Strawberry 360 (9% of 4000)
Banana 120 (3% of 4000)

If your flavor concentrates are PG based, that will give you 30% total PG, with 70% total VG. If your flavor concentrates are VG based, that will give you 18% total PG, and 82% total VG. Neither of these take into account whatever base your nicotine concentrate is or how much you added.

Like I say, I highly doubt this has anything to do with the menthol taste you are getting, but because you said, this all started because you wanted to try a different ratio, I thought you might like to know.;)
 

IDJoel

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Hi Joel,
Yes, my mistake. It's 70/30.
No worries; I thought it might just be an oversight, but I wanted to make sure you were aware.
Will a contaminated beaker affect a 4000ML juice? Let's say a contaminated beaker can contain 5ML residue.
I think that really depends on what the contaminant is; and how sensitive a person's palate is. 5mL of menthol concentrate in 4 liters (it works out to 0.125%) of a lightly flavored mix, would be probably be enough for me to detect; but I imagine it would be pretty faint.
Also, does adding flavor and PG, and remixing/cooking them will help attain the taste that I want?
I can't give you an honest answer to that. Maybe? I personally do not use heat in my e-liquid development.

If you are going to try to adjust you 4 liters to mask the menthol; I would strongly encourage you to do two things:
1.) DO NOT do anything to it for at least a week. Park it in a dark place, and just forget about it for a minimum of 7 days. Then shake, and vape it again to see if, and how, the flavor may have changed.

Then if you still feel it requires adjustment:
2.) Work only with small samples; DO NOT try adjusting the whole 4 liters to start. Draw off 10mL and use that as an experimenting sample. Take notes on everything you try, so if it works to your satisfaction, you can then apply it to the rest. If it fails your intentions; dump it, and take another 10mL to try something else. Repeat until you are satisfied, or you feel it is no longer worth the effort.

If you try adjusting the entire batch to start, you will only have one chance; and the odds are stacked against you that early efforts will make it worse, not better. I would hate to see you ruin 4 liters of e-liquid.

One last note: The sample size can be what ever you are comfortable with; I only suggested 10mL because it doesn't waste a lot of product, and it keeps the math simple for scaling it up for larger batches.

Let us know how it works out; best wishes!:)
 

JohnyVape

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Aug 18, 2017
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No worries; I thought it might just be an oversight, but I wanted to make sure you were aware.

I think that really depends on what the contaminant is; and how sensitive a person's palate is. 5mL of menthol concentrate in 4 liters (it works out to 0.125%) of a lightly flavored mix, would be probably be enough for me to detect; but I imagine it would be pretty faint.

I can't give you an honest answer to that. Maybe? I personally do not use heat in my e-liquid development.

If you are going to try to adjust you 4 liters to mask the menthol; I would strongly encourage you to do two things:
1.) DO NOT do anything to it for at least a week. Park it in a dark place, and just forget about it for a minimum of 7 days. Then shake, and vape it again to see if, and how, the flavor may have changed.

Then if you still feel it requires adjustment:
2.) Work only with small samples; DO NOT try adjusting the whole 4 liters to start. Draw off 10mL and use that as an experimenting sample. Take notes on everything you try, so if it works to your satisfaction, you can then apply it to the rest. If it fails your intentions; dump it, and take another 10mL to try something else. Repeat until you are satisfied, or you feel it is no longer worth the effort.

If you try adjusting the entire batch to start, you will only have one chance; and the odds are stacked against you that early efforts will make it worse, not better. I would hate to see you ruin 4 liters of e-liquid.

One last note: The sample size can be what ever you are comfortable with; I only suggested 10mL because it doesn't waste a lot of product, and it keeps the math simple for scaling it up for larger batches.

Let us know how it works out; best wishes!:)

Thank you for your explaining things. I kind of understand some of them now. :)

Question:

Why don't you heat your ejuice? I heard heating helps in making sure that the cons, PG,VG gets mixed.

Also, does closing the container matter during storage?

I don't have a cold area for storage because Philippines is naturally warm. Is that a problem?

How long does steeping take?

If a mixture needs sweetener, how much do you advice to put, to make it sweet?

Thanks! :)
 
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tazzle

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Unfortunately, I don't see reviews online for Flavor House, but maybe you can contact other vapers who use these flavors to see if they've had any similar experiences? Perhaps one of the flavors came to you adulterated with menthol. Do you have any of the original batch of flavor left that you can test? (I'd also first do a test of your PG/VG just to rule them out; there are a few bases that come with menthol flavoring, though this would almost certainly be clear on the packaging).

Also, I'm assuming you've tried your mix in a couple of different clean atomizers, or with brand new coil/wick to rule out it coming from anything left over in your tank.
 
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IDJoel

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Why don't you heat your ejuice? I heard heating helps in making sure that the cons, PG,VG gets mixed.
I have experimented using heat to speed up the aging process; and did not particularly care for the results, so I personally choose not to. What we perceive as taste comes not only from our tongue, but also from smell (aroma); this is why food often doesn't taste very good when we have a stuffy nose. Some of the molecules that, provide these aromatic notes, begin to evaporate at much lower temperatures (some even at room temperature. Once they evaporate; they can no longer aid the flavor. You will often see this referred to as "flavor fade." As a very general rule (and there are plenty of exceptions), the more aromatic a flavor is, the more susceptible it is likely to be to fading.

That said, there are plenty of DIYers, that DO use various heating methods, and are satisfied with the results. Experimenting with, and without heat, is going to be the only real way to see whether it is right for you.

Flavor fade not only happens from heat (though heat will accelerate it), but also, naturally over time. Exposure to air (open tops, airspace in bottles), and storage in plastic (verses glass), and time, all contribute to its potential affect.
Also, does closing the container matter during storage?
My answer answer to this; sort of builds on my previous answer. Some DIYers will automatically age everything they make with the cap off (at least for a few hours, to a few days). Others will do so only when they use certain flavor concentrates.

The primary benefit of leaving the cap off (what many DIYers refer to as "breathing"), is to allow ethyl alcohol to evaporate (EA is used as a carrier in some flavor concentrates). Ethyl alcohol can produce harsh, unpleasant/unwanted, notes in a finished recipe.

The problem with breathing a mix is that it also aids the loss of those certain flavor notes I described, in my answer to your first question. Again, only by experimentation with individual recipes, will you know whether it helps, or hurts, any given recipe.
I don't have a cold area for storage because Philippines is naturally warm. Is that a problem?
I do not refrigerate any of my finished e-liquids (but I also don't make 4 liter batches either;)); especially during the aging process. We refrigerate to slow, or halt, the aging process.

Any cool, dark place in your home, that is safely away from children and pets, should be perfectly fine.
How long does steeping take?
As much time as it takes to taste good to you; or until the flavor no longer changes. The only way you will know how long "that" is (for each specific recipe), is by periodically vaping a little bit to taste. Be sure you are writing down your perceptions each time, so you can refer back to your notes, to have a better understanding of this change.

Also, large batches (like your liters) may take extra time; due to less efficient/thorough mixing, and total volume.
If a mixture needs sweetener, how much do you advice to put, to make it sweet?
It depends on the person's individual perception (some taste "sweet" much more than others), how sweet they want it, and the type of sweetener used. As my (again) very general rule; when I am making a recipe, that I think could benefit from sweetening, I will start at 0.5% and only add extra as needed.
You're welcome; I'm happy to help when I can.:D

I hope, that from this experience, you have learned that one should never mix large batches before the recipe is perfected. That means not only is the formula 100%, but that you have worked out aging, storage, and durability too.;)
 

SteveS45

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Will a contaminated beaker affect a 4000ML juice? Let's say a contaminated beaker can contain 5ML residue.

From this statement you made in my opinion this is where the menthol came from. I am presently heating 180ML's in 3 60ML bottles under a desk lamp to aid in speeding up the infusion and as I have said many times you must never exceed 150°F when heating Nicotine.
 
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JohnyVape

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I have experimented using heat to speed up the aging process; and did not particularly care for the results, so I personally choose not to. What we perceive as taste comes not only from our tongue, but also from smell (aroma); this is why food often doesn't taste very good when we have a stuffy nose. Some of the molecules that, provide these aromatic notes, begin to evaporate at much lower temperatures (some even at room temperature. Once they evaporate; they can no longer aid the flavor. You will often see this referred to as "flavor fade." As a very general rule (and there are plenty of exceptions), the more aromatic a flavor is, the more susceptible it is likely to be to fading.

That said, there are plenty of DIYers, that DO use various heating methods, and are satisfied with the results. Experimenting with, and without heat, is going to be the only real way to see whether it is right for you.

Flavor fade not only happens from heat (though heat will accelerate it), but also, naturally over time. Exposure to air (open tops, airspace in bottles), and storage in plastic (verses glass), and time, all contribute to its potential affect.

My answer answer to this; sort of builds on my previous answer. Some DIYers will automatically age everything they make with the cap off (at least for a few hours, to a few days). Others will do so only when they use certain flavor concentrates.

The primary benefit of leaving the cap off (what many DIYers refer to as "breathing"), is to allow ethyl alcohol to evaporate (EA is used as a carrier in some flavor concentrates). Ethyl alcohol can produce harsh, unpleasant/unwanted, notes in a finished recipe.

The problem with breathing a mix is that it also aids the loss of those certain flavor notes I described, in my answer to your first question. Again, only by experimentation with individual recipes, will you know whether it helps, or hurts, any given recipe.

I do not refrigerate any of my finished e-liquids (but I also don't make 4 liter batches either;)); especially during the aging process. We refrigerate to slow, or halt, the aging process.

Any cool, dark place in your home, that is safely away from children and pets, should be perfectly fine.

As much time as it takes to taste good to you; or until the flavor no longer changes. The only way you will know how long "that" is (for each specific recipe), is by periodically vaping a little bit to taste. Be sure you are writing down your perceptions each time, so you can refer back to your notes, to have a better understanding of this change.

Also, large batches (like your liters) may take extra time; due to less efficient/thorough mixing, and total volume.

It depends on the person's individual perception (some taste "sweet" much more than others), how sweet they want it, and the type of sweetener used. As my (again) very general rule; when I am making a recipe, that I think could benefit from sweetening, I will start at 0.5% and only add extra as needed.

You're welcome; I'm happy to help when I can.:D

I hope, that from this experience, you have learned that one should never mix large batches before the recipe is perfected. That means not only is the formula 100%, but that you have worked out aging, storage, and durability too.;)

Thank you so much. I think I already have the answer to my original problem. The menthol taste/feeling came from the Ethyl Alcohol. Because after I mixed it/Cooked it, eventhough it was still warm, I closed it inside a plastic container, thus, the ethyl alcohol taste remained.

I have another weird experience. I made a banana split e-juice, and the end effect had water on the upper level of the juice. Why did that happen? Did it just perspire?
 

IDJoel

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Thank you so much. I think I already have the answer to my original problem. The menthol taste/feeling came from the Ethyl Alcohol.
To me, menthol tastes nothing like ethyl alcohol. EA doesn't really have a "taste" as such, more of an unwanted harshness. While on the other hand, menthol has very distinct notes of cold, and Vicks Vape-O-Rub, or Ben-Gay. But, if you have it figured out, I'm glad.
I have another weird experience. I made a banana split e-juice, and the end effect had water on the upper level of the juice. Why did that happen? Did it just perspire?
I have no idea. Why do you think it is water? Without knowing what exactly you are using for ingredients (brands, and amounts), and what you are doing with/to them, I would be totally guessing. If you are using warm/hot water, and an open container, perhaps you are getting condensation introduced into the mix (?); I don't know...

Maybe you would like to explain just exactly how you are mixing, and "cooking," your mixes?

I am happy to help, but I am not very patient with trying to second-guess or "divine," what the person I am trying to help is actually doing. Be forthcoming, and honest with me, and I will do the same with you. Telling me:
I made a banana split e-juice, and the end effect had water on the upper level of the juice.
tells next to nothing.
What specific ingredients did you use?
How much?
What did you do with them?
These are all things, that might help me give you, an answer that may be of some actual use. If you had told me:
"I mixed in a glass beaker:
2mL flavor "X", mfg."N"
5mL flavor "Y" mfg. "N"
4mL flavor "Z" mfg. "P"
9mL PG, mfg. "A"
77mL VG mfg. "B"
3mL 48mg/mL nicotine in VG base
shook by hand for 5 minutes
and then placed the beaker in a pot of steaming water, with the lid on, for one half hour."

Then, I could suggest that the covered pot caused condensation, in the wide open-mouthed beaker, and that you might want to try leaving the pot uncovered next time. Or maybe, manufacturer "B"'s VG is reported to contain 5-10% water, and heating it has caused the water to separate out, prior to boiling.

I am not scolding; I am just not interested in playing twenty questions. I can only know what you tell me; and only to the detail that you share. My answers can only be as accurate as the information as you provide. Again, I am not scolding; I only wish to establish a mutual understanding. Does that sound fair?:)
 

tazzle

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... I closed it inside a plastic container, thus, the ethyl alcohol taste remained.

I have another weird experience. I made a banana split e-juice, and the end effect had water on the upper level of the juice. Why did that happen? Did it just perspire?

Be careful of using plastic for your mixes; some flavors react with plastic, and you really don't want to be vaping part plastic in your juice. Banana, by the way, is one that is known for not doing well with plastic. Here's a partial list of many juices and flavors that have reacted with polycarbonate tanks, for example. I use glass containers for all my mixes because I can't keep up with all the "tank cracking" flavors.
 
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