Puff Bars are Back. Now with TFN.

[zoiDman]

So it looks like Puff Bars told the FDA to Pound Sand. And Now they are Back with TFN.

Puff Bar Defies FDA Crackdown on Fruity E-Cigarettes by Ditching the Tobacco

About Puffbars

Will it Work?
Will Congress have a Hissy Fit?
Will there be a Ginormous Legal Battle?
Will a Bunch of Lawyers get Rich?

You Tell me.

 

[Myrany]

Will it work? I doubt it long run.
Will Congress have a hissy fit? Eventually probably. ANTZ will long before.
Will there be a Ginormous Legal Battle? I doubt it. Company will change hands again and continue on. I do wonder how they are managing the shipping bans.
Will a Bunch of Lawyers get Rich? See above.

 

[zoiDman]

Key Concept: If it Isn't a tobacco Product, it Doesn't Fall Under FDA Deeming Control.

I've been Waiting for someone to Tell the FDA that TFN isn't under their FSTCA Authority. I sure wish it was someone Else besides Puff Bar.

But the Enemy of My Enemy is sometimes My Friend.

 

[r77r7r]

300mah=20 cigs, lol. $9-20...

I guess I'm not going there come April.

 

[Katya]

Option #4. Lawyers will get rich.

 

[UncLeJunkLe]

 

[Ryedan]

So it looks like Puff Bars told the FDA to Pound Sand. And Now they are Back with TFN.

Puff Bar Defies FDA Crackdown on Fruity E-Cigarettes by Ditching the Tobacco

About Puffbars

Will it Work?
Will Congress have a Hissy Fit?
Will there be a Ginormous Legal Battle?
Will a Bunch of Lawyers get Rich?

You Tell me.

From what I've read about the new regs, I don't think they have any chance of this working.

Of course I'm not a lawyer and I hope I'm wrong, but it would really surprise me in this case.

 

[UncLeJunkLe]

If PB is successful at getting the FDA to lay off because TFN is not derived from tobacco, then that means tanks, coils and every other non-tobacco-derived product that they currently deem as "tobacco" can never be deemed as tobacco as it can just be marketed as "only for use with TFN substances".

That means that the only thing they can deem "tobacco" is nic base made with tobacco-derived nicotine and any eliquid that uses it.

PB is likely in for a long, expensive legal ride or a huge smackdown. If they win, it opens up more lawsuits for hardware sold without nicotine and 0mg juice.

 

[zoiDman]

From what I've read about the new regs, I don't think they have any chance of this working.

Of course I'm not a lawyer and I hope I'm wrong, but it would really surprise me in this case.

Yeah... Where's Judge Leon when we Need Him.

 

[Territoo]

Yeah... Where's Judge Leon when we Need Him.

He's retired. Trump appointed his replacement, Trevor McFadden.

 

[zoiDman]

If PB is successful at getting the FDA to lay off because TFN is not derived from tobacco, then that means tanks, coils and every other non-tobacco-derived product that they currently deem as "tobacco" can never be deemed as tobacco as it can just be marketed as "only for use with TFN substances".

...

Unfortunately, Judge Grimm (You Can't make a name like that up - LOL) was pretty clear when He ruled that the "Reasonably Expected Use" wording in the Deeming Rule set was Valid. But for a Non-Refillable, that Reasonable Expected Use thing goes out the Window.

Ergo... A TFN Puff Bar couldn't be Swept Up in all that "Tobacco Product" BS.

Unfortunately, I'm sure if the FDA can't get a Judge to call a TFN Puff Bar a "Tobacco Product, which would be a Reach even for even someone like Judge Grimm, they will turn around and declare it an Unapproved Medical Nicotine Delivery Device.

But Hey, that How Lawyers get Rich defending stuff like this. And Who Knows maybe things could get Bogged down in our Streamlined Court System.

 

[UncLeJunkLe]

they will turn around and declare it an Unapproved Medical Nicotine Delivery Device.

I agree 100%. They will never let vaping slide. They'll get it one way or another and they, and the race of subhumans who own them, will profit from it one way or another.

 

[zoiDman]

I agree 100%. They will never let vaping slide. They'll get it one way or another and they, and the race of subhumans who own them, will profit from it one way or another.

Yeah... I have No Doubt that it will Not end well.

But if something like TFN Puff Bars, or this...

Tobacco-Free Nicotine | TFN Nicotine | River Supply Co.

... could Stay on the market for a Extra Year while the Lawyers fight it out, wouldn't that be a Good Thing?

 

[UncLeJunkLe]

But if something like TFN Puff Bars, or this...

Tobacco-Free Nicotine | TFN Nicotine | River Supply Co.

... could Stay on the market for a Extra Year while the Lawyers fight it out, wouldn't that be a Good Thing?

Yes. Those prices, though ! Glad I got the real stuff.
I wonder what TFN is like. I would have bough a small 120ml bottle from heartland had it not been so expensive.

300mah=20 cigs, lol. $9-20...

Due to the prices of TFN, I wonder if you'd find anything much cheaper worth vaping?

For me, at those prices and my economic situation, quitting would be the only option. I spent $15/day for 2.5 PAD habit back in 2014 (when I wasn't rolling). Ain't going there again with cigarettes or e-cigarettes.

 

[zoiDman]

...
I wonder what TFN is like. ...

It's Very Clean Tasting. But Not exactly something that will Blow your Sox Off unless you are used to Sub-Par Nicotine.

ETA: I have tried Synthetic Nicotine.

And it was almost Tasteless and Odorless at Vapable mg/ml's. But Not Night n' Day to any of the High End Nicotine Bases I had at the time. More on a Par.

And the Average DIY User would Probably Not see a huge Difference in a Finished Flavored e-Liquid.

Tobacco free nicotine.

 

[Katya]

Yeah... I have No Doubt that it will Not end well.

But if something like TFN Puff Bars, or this...

Tobacco-Free Nicotine | TFN Nicotine | River Supply Co.

... could Stay on the market for a Extra Year while the Lawyers fight it out, wouldn't that be a Good Thing?

Don't quote me, but I'm pretty sure that the deeming regs and the last shipping ban bill cover all kinds of nicotine, not only the tobacco-derived kind.

 

[smacuser]

Five Pawns has been selling TFN for a while now.

 

[Myrany]

Don't quote me, but I'm pretty sure that the deeming regs and the last shipping ban bill cover all kinds of nicotine, not only the tobacco-derived kind.

As I read the shipping ban it captures all of Vaping even stuff without Nic at all including CBD which is why I wondered how PB was planning to get around that one.

 

[dwcraig1]

I can't see it happening at least not for very long.

 

[zoiDman]

Don't quote me, but I'm pretty sure that the deeming regs and the last shipping ban bill cover all kinds of nicotine, not only the tobacco-derived kind.

That's were it Starts Raining Lawyers.

Because the FDA gets it's Authority to Regulate a "Tobacco Product" Not from Deeming. But from the FSTCA. And the FSTCA defines a "Tobacco Product" as something that is "Made from or Derived from Tobacco".

Face it. The whole Hardware is a "Tobacco Product" when it is Reasonably Expected to be used with a "Tobacco Product" is a BS Overreach. But Judge Jackson and Judge Grimm allowed it via Judicial Deference to the FDA. Their Reasoning appeared to be that there was Only One Degree of Separation. And people could use a "Ball and or a Box" for Different Purposes including using it with something made from or derived from Tobacco.

But a Closed System/Non-Refillable Doesn't pass that "Ball and or Box" test that Judge Jackson alluded to. So why does the FDA have Authority over it under the FSTCA?

BTW - The Stoner Execs/Millionaires will be Watching this Very Closely. Might even want Enjoin in a Lawsuit. Because this is Directly tied to their Get High with Vaping market.

Which, of course, will just Add More Drama and Hype to the Whole Thing.