Bitter taste invading my mouth

[AndriaD]

That makes sense to me; one reason (aside from my asthma) that I wouldn't care for lung-hitting is that it would miss most of my tastebuds. I couldn't deal with unflavored because I use at least 85% PG, which I think must taste pretty bad, it sure doesn't smell good -- the smell of it reminds me of the "antiseptic" smell in a doctor's office, almost like alcohol.

Have you given any thought to trying out PEG400 (polyethylene glycol)? I tried it at one point when I was suffering so dreadfully with dehydration and electrolyte imbalance, but I found the taste odd, and it seemed, from what I read, that it wouldn't help my problems, as it's likely as hygroscopic as PG and VG. But I wonder if it might give your tongue some relief. I got some via Amazon. It's just as harmless as the other more common carriers, in fact it's sometimes a major ingredient of laxatives (Dulcolax, et al), though it's a little more costly.

Andria

 

[Danny55]

Yeah, I do wonder how people are getting this extra flavour they say they get from direct lung hits. I get some flavour, but in a different way. I'll check out PEG400. vaping VG though Andria is ok, it's got a slightly sweet taste and none of the horrible taste of PG, if you ever fancy trying unflavoured.

 

[AndriaD]

Yeah, I do wonder how people are getting this extra flavour they say they get from direct lung hits. I get some flavour, but in a different way. I'll check out PEG400. vaping VG though Andria is ok, it's got a slightly sweet taste and none of the horrible taste of PG, if you ever fancy trying unflavoured.

I can't vape more than about 15% VG, or I can't breathe at all -- lately it's actually been 86%-87% PG, 13%-14% VG. So that's completely out of the question.

Andria

 

[Nimaz]

Hi Nimaz,
Thanks for checking that out, and by the way, I hope things are ok with you!
Yep, the biopsy I had showed nothing sinister and I was basically diagnosed with GT. It does seem that GT is the cause of my problems. What's odd though is that it doesn't affect my taste at all with food, only with vaping. Now that you mention it, I would love to try some anti inflammatory medicine to see if it would work, and if only to see if I could taste eliquid properly. Then I'd know 100% it's GT, plus I'd be able to enjoy vaping.

I happen to have another doctor's appointment booked for the 3rd Jan, so I'll see if she can recommend me anything that she thinks might work. I just read an article which looks promising, but it seems more tests are needed for proof of efficacy and safety. Basically a couple of people were treated (seemingly successfully) for GT with a topical ointment called Tacrolimus. No idea if my doctor will know about that stuff but i'd like to try it, even if it means I can get a referral to a proper ENT.

Geographic tongue treated with topical tacrolimus

Thanks, I'm doing great, getting ready to run a marathon... Just kidding, I'm in a pretty good shape to tell you the truth running 3-5 miles daily and swimming 500 yards occasionally.

I digged a bit further into it following your link. The published results on tacrolimus are limited but the shown results are quite overwhelming based on a 2 weeks 0.1% treatment on 2 Japanese patients. There is a sell prospect behind it, which makes me a bit skeptical... I tried to find more recent data on this and found one kid successfully treated with it. Now, this is an immunosuppressant so I would recommend great cautiousness before getting into it... Other treatments as dexamethasone are pretty strong and nasty anti-inflammatory treatment for a broad range of inflammatory conditions, but very effective. Tacrolimus, like cyclosporine acts in a different pathway, targeting T-cells rather than the secretion of pro-inflammatory proteins by specialized cells. Not too good in my stand point as T cells are needed to control many aspects of our physiology, including the growth of tumor cells... I had cyclosporine treatment when I was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes, the earliest diagnosis found in the world at that time so the smart doctors thought that they can block the disease progression by blocking my T cells... Naive from their and my part but I was young.

The vape doesn't provide me an overwhelming taste sensation to date. The cappuccino flavor I'm using now taste a bit like it but doesn't blow my mouth like the one I drink. A stinky blue cheese on a baguette toast with a well aged wine and olives on the side take me to the moon... I would never challenge anyone to make up that flavor though, lol.

Here is my take over the few I read about GT. The knowledge about this condition is very limited. Inflammation can be triggered by exogenous compounds, like cat's hairs or pollen for asthmatics. Anti-inflammatory treatments are effective in providing asthma crisis relief in combination with other medicines such as Albuterol, a bronchodilator that relaxes muscles in the airways and increases air flow to the lungs. These medicines are not curative but rather symptomatic treatments. If asthmatics can avoid these allergens, like my son, they are just fine... I know some of them but sometime crisis are pupping out of nowhere, especially during this season, and I don't know what are the triggers. The xmas emotional excitements may be a trigger for my son. So if GT is an inflammation triggered by an exogenous compound(s) (or emotional....), you may find out which one(s) they might be in your daily routine. Don't neglect any possibilities as no one knows.... Whatever goes through your mouth and maybe more... Or maybe somethings that don't go through your mouth anymore? Challenging though! Another possibility, is that inflammation in GT is triggered by a self-antigen, some elements that make up our body, especially the tong in GT. I think that they call these conditions autoinflammatory diseases. I don't think that anyone has explored this possibility yet but it might have been discussed somewhere. Autoimmune conditions are really broad, when the immune system bit up part(s) of the body like it's a foreign entity leading to nasty diseases like type 1 diabetes, Lupus, or Rheumatoid Arthritis... Nicotine is an anti-inflammatory molecule, interestingly used to treat ulcerative colitis, a chronic inflammatory disease... I think that we are a the edge of knowledge on GT so there is just room for speculations. I'm just sad to see that too many physicians cannot educate them self on that matter before prescribing quick fix medications.

I wish you well, and please just take my writing for what it is, just speculations...

 

[Danny55]

I can't vape more than about 15% VG, or I can't breathe at all -- lately it's actually been 86%-87% PG, 13%-14% VG. So that's completely out of the question.

Andria

Hey Andria, totally understand that! Yep, it seems I have to do the opposite, higher VG, although right now, I'm back on boring unflavoured 100% VG, no PG at all, gives me no problems.

Nimaz, that's extremely impressive running daily miles plus some swimming! I can take a leaf out of your book.

I read through your findings, and it's very interesting reading. Thanks for sharing.

I went to the doctor again on monday as a sort of follow up. Told her the Flucanazole didn't work, neither did Nystatin, neither did Daktarin oral gel (Micanazole). So clearly there doesn't appear to be any candida. I received a prescription for 20 x Nicotine 15mg inhalation cartridges. I haven't bothered with those yet. I asked about some anti inflammatories, steroids, antibiotics, and she said no, not needed. I asked about B12 complex, she said not needed, my blood test showed I have plenty of that.

The GT I've been diagnosed, I'm not so sure it is that. My tongue makes marked improvements pretty quickly when I'm away from PG and only vape VG. It goes from very patchy to smoothing itself out again. That's not to say VG is not affecting me. I still sense a sandpapery dryness effect on the back of my tongue with VG, but nothing bad. And if I go back to flavours after doing just VG for a while, I'll taste the flavours quite well, but only for a very short time before the PG starts corrupting my mouth again.

I'm convinced the PG is coating my mouth and tongue and creating this bitterness that stops me tasting properly. It's also what is burning off the top layer of my tongue and creating what appears to be GT, or, it is GT and the PG is keeping it active and making it worse. Granted, I have the tools here to do further tests to see if it's PG or just the flavours, and as yet, haven't tried vaping pure PG with no flavours. So I'll try that. But smelling PG from the bottle, it smells as toxic as the taste I seem to get.


Anyway, I'm considering something else which I'll probably need to ask about in another sub forum. VG concentrates. Concentrates with no PG. I found a place in the UK that sells it.

VG Concentrates

I was thinking of buying a couple of VG concentrates and pairing it with AG, which is thinned with 20% distilled water.

AQUEOUS GLYCERINE AG SELECT SIZE

But I've got no idea if the flavours in VG concentrates contain anything like alcohol, which may or may not be a good thing. Anyway, perhaps this could be the answer for me? Flavoured vaping with no PG. I can only imagine that if it works, it may take an awful lot more flavouring and a lot more steeping for the flavours to carry through.


Anyway, Andrea, Nimaz and everyone, a very Happy New Year to you!

 

[AndriaD]

Hey Andria, totally understand that! Yep, it seems I have to do the opposite, higher VG, although right now, I'm back on boring unflavoured 100% VG, no PG at all, gives me no problems.

Nimaz, that's extremely impressive running daily miles plus some swimming! I can take a leaf out of your book.

I read through your findings, and it's very interesting reading. Thanks for sharing.

I went to the doctor again on monday as a sort of follow up. Told her the Flucanazole didn't work, neither did Nystatin, neither did Daktarin oral gel (Micanazole). So clearly there doesn't appear to be any candida. I received a prescription for 20 x Nicotine 15mg inhalation cartridges. I haven't bothered with those yet. I asked about some anti inflammatories, steroids, antibiotics, and she said no, not needed. I asked about B12 complex, she said not needed, my blood test showed I have plenty of that.

The GT I've been diagnosed, I'm not so sure it is that. My tongue makes marked improvements pretty quickly when I'm away from PG and only vape VG. It goes from very patchy to smoothing itself out again. That's not to say VG is not affecting me. I still sense a sandpapery dryness effect on the back of my tongue with VG, but nothing bad. And if I go back to flavours after doing just VG for a while, I'll taste the flavours quite well, but only for a very short time before the PG starts corrupting my mouth again.

I'm convinced the PG is coating my mouth and tongue and creating this bitterness that stops me tasting properly. It's also what is burning off the top layer of my tongue and creating what appears to be GT, or, it is GT and the PG is keeping it active and making it worse. Granted, I have the tools here to do further tests to see if it's PG or just the flavours, and as yet, haven't tried vaping pure PG with no flavours. So I'll try that. But smelling PG from the bottle, it smells as toxic as the taste I seem to get.


Anyway, I'm considering something else which I'll probably need to ask about in another sub forum. VG concentrates. Concentrates with no PG. I found a place in the UK that sells it.

VG Concentrates

I was thinking of buying a couple of VG concentrates and pairing it with AG, which is thinned with 20% distilled water.

AQUEOUS GLYCERINE AG SELECT SIZE

But I've got no idea if the flavours in VG concentrates contain anything like alcohol, which may or may not be a good thing. Anyway, perhaps this could be the answer for me? Flavoured vaping with no PG. I can only imagine that if it works, it may take an awful lot more flavouring and a lot more steeping for the flavours to carry through.


Anyway, Andrea, Nimaz and everyone, a very Happy New Year to you!

One other idea comes to mind -- you mentioned B12... I've always found that anytime I have any kind of mouth irritation, B Complex before bed often effects a "miracle cure" -- for any kind of mouth problem. Some Vitamin A might also be good, because it helps all skin cells rejuvenate faster -- Accutane, and this other new acne med, are synthetic derivatives of Vit A, which is how they help acne, they help the skin slough and rejuvenate more rapidly. Used together, vit A, and B complex, over say 2-3 wks, might help. It's about the only thing you haven't tried, I think. Bedtime, with a lot of water, is how I take the B complex. And Vit A can be drying to all mucous membranes, so the extra water would definitely help with it.

Andria

ETA: doctors will seldom recommend vitamins for "treatment" purposes of anything except a definitive vitamin deficiency -- I think it's because they don't get kickbacks from BP for recommending vitamins.

 

[Danny55]

Thanks Andria. If I buy some vitamin A and some vitamin B12, is it safe to take them if I'm already getting enough, in other words, as safe as if we overdosed on vitamin C because we just pee away excess vitamin C?

Also, I currently have a 90 tablet container of one a day multivitamins + minerals, would it be ok to take separate Vitamin A and B12 while taking a multivitamin a day? I also have a container of Zinc Sulphate 45mg, 90 tablets, one a day which I haven't used much yet, and wonder if I should take those too.
The blood tests showed my zinc and B12 levels are good/normal. But as you say, it might still be good to take them anyway.

B12 like this?Holland & Barrett Vitamin B12 Tablets 500ug | Holland & Barrett - the UK’s Leading Health Retailer

Or B Complex like this? Tesco Vitamin B Complex X 240 - Groceries - Tesco Groceries

Also, can't find much on dedicated Vitamin A except this, but not sure if it's one drink and it's gone, or a concentrate? Get More Vitamin A 500Ml - Groceries - Tesco Groceries

 

[AndriaD]

Thanks Andria. If I buy some vitamin A and some vitamin B12, is it safe to take them if I'm already getting enough, in other words, as safe as if we overdosed on vitamin C because we just pee away excess vitamin C?

Also, I currently have a 90 tablet container of one a day multivitamins + minerals, would it be ok to take separate Vitamin A and B12 while taking a multivitamin a day? I also have a container of Zinc Sulphate 45mg, 90 tablets, one a day which I haven't used much yet, and wonder if I should take those too.
The blood tests showed my zinc and B12 levels are good/normal. But as you say, it might still be good to take them anyway.

Well I don't think it's B12 that is needed; it's either B3 or B6, I get them confused -- one of them is really good for all complaints of the mouth, and is often given to people in detox -- alcoholics often get mouth sores from a lack of it, and it really helps. With B Complex you get all the B vitamins, which is good, because they all work best when taken together.

I would be careful of the zinc; it's really a trace nutrient, and if you're not showing a definitive lack, then you don't need any more of it. Vitamins A & E are fat soluble vitamins, so it's a good idea to be wary of them too, as they might build up to toxic levels. But B vitamins are water soluble, and thus it would be very difficult to "OD" on them -- but as I said, I don't think it's B12 that's the problem; B12 would be needed if you were suffering anemia or low energy levels, for example, and unless you're a vegan or vegetarian, you probably get sufficient B12 from animal sources -- meat, eggs, milk, cheese, etc. Taking B complex gives you all the B vitamins in proper balance.

Although Vitamin A is fat soluble, taking a single pill each day shouldn't present any problem, if you aren't taking any other vitamin A products. (such as accutane or the other acne medication).

Andria

 

[Danny55]

Well I'm not taking any other Vitamin A product, unless you include Vitamin A in my one a day multivitamins? Though I think multivitamins contain small doses of each vitamin.

Also, I'm not a vegan or vegetarian, but I tend to eat more white meat like chicken and fish than red meat these days, just because I'm cautious about the dangers of red meat.

Otherwise, I'll go to my nearest Holland & Barrett (don't know if that shop brand is also in the US? It's a quite a big health shop franchise here in the UK ) and buy these

Holland & Barrett Vitamin A Capsules | Holland & Barrett - the UK’s Leading Health Retailer
Holland & Barrett Complete B Vitamin B Complex | Holland & Barrett - the UK’s Leading Health Retailer

 

[AndriaD]

Well I'm not taking any other Vitamin A product, unless you include Vitamin A in my one a day multivitamins? Though I think multivitamins contain small doses of each vitamin.

Also, I'm not a vegan or vegetarian, but I tend to eat more white meat like chicken and fish than red meat these days, just because I'm cautious about the dangers of red meat.

Otherwise, I'll go to my nearest Holland & Barrett (don't know if that shop brand is also in the US? It's a quite a big health shop franchise here in the UK ) and buy these

Holland & Barrett Vitamin A Capsules | Holland & Barrett - the UK’s Leading Health Retailer
Holland & Barrett Complete B Vitamin B Complex | Holland & Barrett - the UK’s Leading Health Retailer

Don't know that shop; over here you can find supplements practically everywhere, from Walmart right down to specialty shops like that one.

I don't think the extra 1 pill a day Vit A plus your regular multivitamin should be a problem, if the Vit A is for a definite finite period; probably wouldn't be good to do that indefinitely, but for 2-3 wks, shouldn't cause a problem. And the B complex, not a problem at all, just because they're water soluble -- you lose those vitamins left and right, with all liquids that leave your body, and other factors can cause their faster destruction -- too much sugar, alcohol, etc.

Any animal products are good sources of B12 -- even milk and cheese. I don't eat much red meat either, just because beef has so much cholesterol, which my gall stones keep me from being to digest properly. But lots of chicken! (fried chicken sizzling on the stove right now! gotta go turn it!)

Andria

 

[Nimaz]

Hey Andria, totally understand that! Yep, it seems I have to do the opposite, higher VG, although right now, I'm back on boring unflavoured 100% VG, no PG at all, gives me no problems.

Nimaz, that's extremely impressive running daily miles plus some swimming! I can take a leaf out of your book.

I read through your findings, and it's very interesting reading. Thanks for sharing.

I went to the doctor again on monday as a sort of follow up. Told her the Flucanazole didn't work, neither did Nystatin, neither did Daktarin oral gel (Micanazole). So clearly there doesn't appear to be any candida. I received a prescription for 20 x Nicotine 15mg inhalation cartridges. I haven't bothered with those yet. I asked about some anti inflammatories, steroids, antibiotics, and she said no, not needed. I asked about B12 complex, she said not needed, my blood test showed I have plenty of that.

The GT I've been diagnosed, I'm not so sure it is that. My tongue makes marked improvements pretty quickly when I'm away from PG and only vape VG. It goes from very patchy to smoothing itself out again. That's not to say VG is not affecting me. I still sense a sandpapery dryness effect on the back of my tongue with VG, but nothing bad. And if I go back to flavours after doing just VG for a while, I'll taste the flavours quite well, but only for a very short time before the PG starts corrupting my mouth again.

I'm convinced the PG is coating my mouth and tongue and creating this bitterness that stops me tasting properly. It's also what is burning off the top layer of my tongue and creating what appears to be GT, or, it is GT and the PG is keeping it active and making it worse. Granted, I have the tools here to do further tests to see if it's PG or just the flavours, and as yet, haven't tried vaping pure PG with no flavours. So I'll try that. But smelling PG from the bottle, it smells as toxic as the taste I seem to get.


Anyway, I'm considering something else which I'll probably need to ask about in another sub forum. VG concentrates. Concentrates with no PG. I found a place in the UK that sells it.

VG Concentrates

I was thinking of buying a couple of VG concentrates and pairing it with AG, which is thinned with 20% distilled water.

AQUEOUS GLYCERINE AG SELECT SIZE

But I've got no idea if the flavours in VG concentrates contain anything like alcohol, which may or may not be a good thing. Anyway, perhaps this could be the answer for me? Flavoured vaping with no PG. I can only imagine that if it works, it may take an awful lot more flavouring and a lot more steeping for the flavours to carry through.


Anyway, Andrea, Nimaz and everyone, a very Happy New Year to you!

Thank you! Happy New Years and best wishes to you for 2016! I'm glad that you are narrowing down the GT issue with what seems, at least in part, to be PG exposure. I remember reading that GT can evolve, change and improve very rapidly. I'm also glad that your Doctor doesn't recommend these nasty anti-inflammatory medicines... This is the asthma season for my son, and he's back to his full treatment gears, which also includes anti-inflammatory drugs, necessary but I would rather avoid them on him. His Doctor said yesterday that he is doing good on the regimen that I'm using on him and just recommended honey to treat his cold infection. My son and I liked that! He quoted a study about Honey efficiency versus other pharmaceutical cold medicine showing that honey is as effective. That's funny because my Mum used Honey on my sick head all the time when I was a child and I still use it for myself up to date.

I'm having daily multivitamin/mineral supplements whatever they add to my regular diet. I don't think they hurt anyway... Also, I've been looking at my vaping habits in a very different way lately. I DIY my juices and rebuilding my coils away from cigs for a long while now wondering if I should set vaping for special occasions or only in specific time in my schedule.... Without any major issues with the liquid products, I, in contrast, cannot tolerate much VG in my mix just because of its thickness. Good luck in your VG flavor concentrate search!

 

[Newbz]

OP, welcome to my world. For whatever reason, PG and me do not mix. The flavor is chemical, bitter, artificial, and leaves a coating in the back of my throat that lasts for days. Way back when in the brand new days of the vaping industry, the only primary VG flavor out there was ECOpure. That was it. Every other vendor was high PG loaded in their formulas and no one at that time understood what the heck I was talking about when I claimed that well regarded flavors tasted wretched. To this day, when I go to brick and mortar stores where the PG/VG mix is typically 70-30 or something similar, they *still* don't get it even though PG intolerance/ dislike is a common conversation here. Brick and mortar stores have a long way to go to catch up with this forum.

Anyway, I stick to primarily VG formulas. No bitterness or dry throat if I do so. I can tolerate a VG/ PG mix of 70/30 but that's really my limit and I have precisely one flavor out of hundreds I have purchased that I'll tolerate that high of a level of PG for. I much prefer a 100% or 90% VG mix. Not all palettes are the same. You just have to work around yours, it seems.

Good luck!