CASAA | The Consumer Advocates for Smokeless Alternatives Association

[mtndude]

Just because a ban is put in place doesn't mean it's the end; just a setback, though a big one for sure.

For legal reasons, e-cigs cannot be marketed as safer / reduced harm. What legal straightjacket bears on CASAA in this regard?

This one has been bothering me ever since you posed the question...

I'm thinking that it comes down to having to separate the words smoke-free alternatives and reduced harm alternatives. This could be a good case for what would, otherwise, appear to be redundancy.

 

[LaceyUnderall]

Lacey,

GREAT! Would there be any issue in mirroring your library page on CASAA? Primary links would all come from wherever you store them, but in any DOS attack, we can easily switch over to dozens of mirrored servers all over the world.

I don't see why not... I do have to get everything in order first! LOL as I know where it is and what it is but others wouldn't and it needs to be blatantly obvious so a "library" type situation is effective. As soon as I have an update, I will let you know... but you will have to bear with me

 

[AngeLsLuv]

The links on the site don't work for
http://casaa.org/

:-(

 

[Vocalek]

Realisticly, the PV will evolve but not change that greatly.

If forced to choose between an inhalator with nicotine and an e-cig with no nic, i'd choose the e-cig; as much as I (believe) i like the nic. The act and the fog are big parts of the enjoyment that the other alternatives just don't offer.

I can envisage the organisation getting into difficulties in the future by being too broad in scope.

I feel i've said my piece on this now. Improvements to the e-cig will occur, but it will still clearly be an e-cig. There might be some safer chantix-like drug or fast acting patch and such, but i really have no interest in that type of product. It;s not just about getting off smoking; but also about being free to vape as a safe and enjoyable activity. That makes it different.

For me, the issue is keeping nicotine available. It's a matter of survival. My visual memory, short term memory, and concentration, become so impaired without nicotine that I can't function. Off nicotine, I am just as impaired driving a car as someone who has had several drinks.

If there is a ban, we may need products like Snus in order to make liquid for our e-cigs.

 

[Webby]

The links on the site don't work for
http://casaa.org/

:-(

LOL - peddling as fast as I can! The SQL back end is the biggest pain, loading content will be easy and I'll be calling on everyone here to do that!

 

[Webby]

For me, the issue is keeping nicotine available. It's a matter of survival. My visual memory, short term memory, and concentration, become so impaired without nicotine that I can't function. Off nicotine, I am just as impaired driving a car as someone who has had several drinks.

If there is a ban, we may need products like Snus in order to make liquid for our e-cigs.

From everything I've read, any ban would be on suppliers and imports. I don't see an outright ban on users. Of course, if you cut off supply....

 

[Vocalek]

From everything I've read, any ban would be on suppliers and imports. I don't see an outright ban on users. Of course, if you cut off supply....

Exactly my point. I figured it up and I am good for about two years. After that time if replacement supplies are not available, I need to figure out a way to get therapeutic doses of nicotine, or I need to find someone to take over all my responsibilities.

Anyone want to get an 80-something woman with dementia to her doctor's appointments, organize her medications, do all her paperwork for obtaining medications, drive her to the grocery store, manage her check-book, etc. etc.?

Wait, I'm not talking about me (yet). I'm saying that I have these responsibilities now for my elderly mother, as well as working 80% of full-time. I am positive I would be unable to perform these duties with any degree of accuracy sans nicotine.

Of course I could replace nicotine with a combo of drugs such as Valium, Prozac, Ritalin, and Aricept. But then you get into the heavy-duty potential of serious side effects, the co$t, the black-box warnings, etc.

 

[kinabaloo]

For me, the issue is keeping nicotine available. It's a matter of survival. My visual memory, short term memory, and concentration, become so impaired without nicotine that I can't function. Off nicotine, I am just as impaired driving a car as someone who has had several drinks.

If there is a ban, we may need products like Snus in order to make liquid for our e-cigs.

It's a tricky one, but the reluctance I have for taking the separate the e-cig from the juice and sell the e-cig as an air-freshener or whatever line is that a) I doubt this will wash, and b) it makes it easier to ban the nicotine; which is the part most needed (by those who need it, not all for sure). Easy to make an e-cig out of a torch and some nichrome wire, buy VG and flavoring.

Seems goalposts are shifting, as one would expect because the desire to ban came first; nic is not really harmful so trying now to make 'it's addictive' stick.

Without the nic, it can't function nearly so well as a smoking alternative. And that will be a tragedy.

 

[kinabaloo]

Exactly my point. I figured it up and I am good for about two years. After that time if replacement supplies are not available, I need to figure out a way to get therapeutic doses of nicotine, or I need to find someone to take over all my responsibilities.

Anyone want to get an 80-something woman with dementia to her doctor's appointments, organize her medications, do all her paperwork for obtaining medications, drive her to the grocery store, manage her check-book, etc. etc.?

Wait, I'm not talking about me (yet). I'm saying that I have these responsibilities now for my elderly mother, as well as working 80% of full-time. I am positive I would be unable to perform these duties with any degree of accuracy sans nicotine.

Of course I could replace nicotine with a combo of drugs such as Valium, Prozac, Ritalin, and Aricept. But then you get into the heavy-duty potential of serious side effects, the co$t, the black-box warnings, etc.

With a friendly MD, and keeping a low profile, a compounding pharmacy route might be the way to go, unless that get's blocked too.

~~~

One additional reason for the desire to get nic banned is that quite a bit of reasearch shows some therapeutic benefits, which obviously needs to be available only in glossy boxes at a mighty price, and probably patented deformed versions at that.

 

[mtndude]

Not to drag this out, but another e-cig/snus relationship, is a method of obtaining nicotine liquid from snus. Not to say CASAA would ever be an advocate of DIY liquids, but If the hardware stays available while the liquid is banned.... I get the feeling suppliers, manufacturers and consumers are not going to be cursing that paticular alternative.

 

[dragonpuff]

If a complete ban on liquid goes through (and if snus doesn't work for me of course), i've seriously considered soaking tobacco in PG for a while (overnight? a week? idk yet), straining it and squeezing all the liquid out of the tobacco, and vaping that. It won't be the best solution (and it'll probably taste funky), but it will definitely be less harmful than smoking still.

Thing is, they won't ban tobacco, and they're not going to ban PG just because it can be used for something illegal (look at sudafed, it's used to make .... and all they did was make you ask your pharmacist for some), and the same goes for flavors like lorann's.

If that doesn't work, i will surely go back to smoking as i cant physically or financially afford to go through yet another round of trying various dangerous medications for years searching for something that will never replicate the efficacy of nicotine (maybe THAT's where the drug companies should be focusing their energy instead of making up new molecules all the time ).

I just hope our fears don't really come true too many lives are on the line over this.

 

[webtaxman]

Clean Nicotine

 

[Territoo]

If a complete ban on liquid goes through (and if snus doesn't work for me of course), i've seriously considered soaking tobacco in PG for a while (overnight? a week? idk yet), straining it and squeezing all the liquid out of the tobacco, and vaping that. It won't be the best solution (and it'll probably taste funky), but it will definitely be less harmful than smoking still.

Thing is, they won't ban tobacco, and they're not going to ban PG just because it can be used for something illegal (look at sudafed, it's used to make .... and all they did was make you ask your pharmacist for some), and the same goes for flavors like lorann's.

If that doesn't work, i will surely go back to smoking as i cant physically or financially afford to go through yet another round of trying various dangerous medications for years searching for something that will never replicate the efficacy of nicotine (maybe THAT's where the drug companies should be focusing their energy instead of making up new molecules all the time ).

I just hope our fears don't really come true too many lives are on the line over this.

Check the eliquid DIY section on the forum. People have already done a lot of this and have worked out at least some of the bugs....

 

[dragonpuff]

Check the eliquid DIY section on the forum. People have already done a lot of this and have worked out at least some of the bugs....

Thanks territoo

I'll definitely check that out. I can't imagine the process being much more difficult than brewing coffee

 

[stevo_tdo]

Not sure about you all, but I believe things are shaping up nicely. As far as the whole snus thing. I just started using it to get that steady nic dosage my brain needs. Am I saying I crave it, no that's not it. I quit smoking altogether about 36 days ago or so. First week was good then my mind started to go. My situation might differ from yours as I have schizophrenia. I flat out have come to terms that I don't want nicotine, I don't crave it, but I can't function without it. So far since starting snus yesterday my mind is doing better, i'm not forgetting words, faces, and places as much. My doc always wants to know how i'm doing pretty well off medication. I tell him it's called nicotine bub.

So as far as supporting snus, I need it. As far as E-cigs, I need it. I get the nic I need for my mind to function and I can vape nic or no nic while I do it. For some of us E-cigs just don't cut it. The nic absorbtion is atleast only 10% of smoking cigarettes. So until breakthroughs in nic juices fix the speed and absorbtion problem I will use snus.

We all should have the choice to use reduced harm products and no I don't mean nicorette, the patch, etc. To me reduced harm means in essence it's the same product but steps have been taken to reduce the harm to the consumer.

For example: An e-cig produces a smoke-like substance and you inhale it. Snus replicates the action of chew but is not as harmful.

Hope someone gets the point out of my rant. I'm not really sure I had a point.

Wait, here it is. I have no problem with the organization supporting multiple options in harm reduction. You can't come out all hitler-like trying to make the perfect race or in this case make the E-cig the only perfect device (because it's not there yet). It would be up to the members of the organization to vote on what direction it takes as it evolves.

 

[dragonpuff]

We all should have the choice to use reduced harm products and no I don't mean nicorette, the patch, etc. To me reduced harm means in essence it's the same product but steps have been taken to reduce the harm to the consumer.

Truthfully speaking, for anyone like you or I that needs a certain level of nicotine for medical reasons, the patch, gum, etc. just don't cut it. The dosages are so painfully low that they are useless.

The last time i quit smoking (before this time ), i was using the patch, gum and lozenges all at the same time. I still had cravings, and within a couple days my performance at school was faltering and i could feel my marbles slipping through my fingers, so to speak. I started smoking again 4 days later. It was a massive failure.

I think they dose them that way because they're meant for nicotine cessation by gradual reduction of intake, not continued use. Which of course makes them useless to us.

 

[Vocalek]

Found this article:

The Brief Addiction Science Information Source (BASIS): ASHES, Vol. 5(3) - The No-Nicotine Blues: Investigating Why Some Smokers Feel Depressed While Trying to Quit.

Left this comment:

The findings provide the explanation of the biological mechanisms underlying the connection between depression and nicotine deprivation. No doubt similar mechanisms cause the anxiety, attention deficits, and memory problems linked to smoking cessation. It is long past time to consider permanent nicotine maintenance as a treatment for those with permanent cognitive and mood impairments. Current NRT products, aimed at weaning the user from nicotine, are too weak to provide therapeutic doses for most people. The electronic cigarette holds promise as a way to deliver vaporized nicotine without the harmful tar, carbon monoxide, and multitude of toxins and carcinogens found in tobacco smoke.

 

[Webby]

Left this comment:

The findings provide the explanation of the biological mechanisms underlying the connection between depression and nicotine deprivation. No doubt similar mechanisms cause the anxiety, attention deficits, and memory problems linked to smoking cessation. It is long past time to consider permanent nicotine maintenance as a treatment for those with permanent cognitive and mood impairments. Current NRT products, aimed at weaning the user from nicotine, are too weak to provide therapeutic doses for most people. The electronic cigarette holds promise as a way to deliver vaporized nicotine without the harmful tar, carbon monoxide, and multitude of toxins and carcinogens found in tobacco smoke.

Well said!

 

[dragonpuff]

Found this article:

The Brief Addiction Science Information Source (BASIS): ASHES, Vol. 5(3) - The No-Nicotine Blues: Investigating Why Some Smokers Feel Depressed While Trying to Quit.

Left this comment:

The findings provide the explanation of the biological mechanisms underlying the connection between depression and nicotine deprivation. No doubt similar mechanisms cause the anxiety, attention deficits, and memory problems linked to smoking cessation. It is long past time to consider permanent nicotine maintenance as a treatment for those with permanent cognitive and mood impairments. Current NRT products, aimed at weaning the user from nicotine, are too weak to provide therapeutic doses for most people. The electronic cigarette holds promise as a way to deliver vaporized nicotine without the harmful tar, carbon monoxide, and multitude of toxins and carcinogens found in tobacco smoke.

Very good find, and well commented!

Unfortunately this study also supports age-old concepts like replacement of nicotine with bupropion (which doesn't work in some people and in others might be dangerous) and how "dangerous" continued use of nicotine is, giving more cannon-fodder to current politico-medical beliefs.

It also begs the question: how long does it take for serotonin to recover to pre-nicotine levels? I'm betting that in many cases it simply never does.

I've had so many people (non-smokers of course) tell me that if i can just stick it out through the withdrawal i'll feel better than ever. I sure tried to stick it out, until i had to go to the hospital. Then I had several medical professionals; doctors, nurses, emt's, etc.; tell me that i should not quit smoking because the "withdrawal" can last a very long time (how long they did not specify) and it is too dangerous for me to quit.

It's really something when doctors tell you not to quit smoking.

My point is, at the present time these disruptions in serotonin by nicotine abstinence are assumed by many to be temporary and, therefore, cessation is assumed to simply create a manageable period of adjustment. I would love to see similar studies on if and when the brain actually recovers. If we can prove that the brain never recovers for some people, then we would have a strong scientific basis for long-term use of high doses of nicotine.

 

[Territoo]

Very good find, and well commented!

Unfortunately this study also supports age-old concepts like replacement of nicotine with bupropion (which doesn't work in some people and in others might be dangerous) and how "dangerous" continued use of nicotine is, giving more cannon-fodder to current politico-medical beliefs.

It also begs the question: how long does it take for serotonin to recover to pre-nicotine levels? I'm betting that in many cases it simply never does.

I've had so many people (non-smokers of course) tell me that if i can just stick it out through the withdrawal i'll feel better than ever. I sure tried to stick it out, until i had to go to the hospital. Then I had several medical professionals; doctors, nurses, emt's, etc.; tell me that i should not quit smoking because the "withdrawal" can last a very long time (how long they did not specify) and it is too dangerous for me to quit.

It's really something when doctors tell you not to quit smoking.

My point is, at the present time these disruptions in serotonin by nicotine abstinence are assumed by many to be temporary and, therefore, cessation is assumed to simply create a manageable period of adjustment. I would love to see similar studies on if and when the brain actually recovers. If we can prove that the brain never recovers for some people, then we would have a strong scientific basis for long-term use of high doses of nicotine.

The failure to ever recover can explain why people relapse after many years of being smoke-free. I was smoke-free for 6 years, was sitting w/ a co-worker who was smoking, bummed a cig, figuring just one couldn't hurt. I rapidly was back to smoking.

The problem w/ depression and nicotine withdrawal has been acknowledged by the medical profession. In the past, even though a hospital was smoke free, one room was set aside in the psychiatric ward for patients to smoke. With the increasing government imposed bans, this is becoming more difficult, but the psychiatric wards are not banning possetion of cigarettes in adult patients, even though they are now forced to go to an outside smoking area.