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Common Sense and the Unknown

Discussion in 'Health, Safety and Vaping' started by paladinx, Nov 4, 2011.

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  1. paladinx

    paladinx Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    I used to be active in this health thread some time ago.. I see nothing has really changed. Everything seems to be a guess. A lot of people become extra sensitive or hypochondriacs and attribute new or old symptoms to vaping.. Others seem to have a reaction to vaping that is legit. Sometimes its hard to really know for sure. My biggest concern is this.

    Cigarettes are viewed as the devil. We know everything bad about them and all the chemicals inside of them yadda yadda. But for what they are,, You have to acknowledge the fact that cigarettes are very long term killers.. Most people who get disease or die from smoking related illness have been consuming a lot of cigarette smoke for many decades. I think this is an important aspect we always choose to forget.. The amount of consumption of cigarette smoke that causes disease. Vaping has only been around a few years if that.. Hearing people with symptoms only vaping for a few months or a year is a little disheartening to me. Put it this way... There is no carcinogens or tar in a block of cheese.. If i continuously ate 20 to 30 blocks of cheese every single day, 7 days a week I believe that in couple of decades even less I might have some very serious problems. If i was unaware of the dangers of saturated fats and just ate cheese because it didn' thave the same carcinogens as cigarettes, I would be eating the cheese in large amounts believing it was healthier than cigarettes.. when in fact the cheese would probably kill me faster than the cigarettes.. This is the point that we should take into consideration.. Its easy to compare anything to what we know about cigarettes and list all the bad things that aren't in them.. but we need to look at what else is in Vapor or these devices that has its own set of risks.. Such as the understanding the danger of the fats in eating cheese everyday. Maybe coating your lungs daily with PG creates some kind of health hazard that is equally or just as dangerous as cigarette smoking.. Maybe not.. But its still unclear to me.. I just think that only focusing on all the carcinogens that are not in cigarettes isn't enough because like i said,, with all the bad stuff in cigarettes in trace amounts.. u still need to smoke ALOT for decades to really kill yourself. So the main killer in cigarettes is the addiction.. I think if u smoked only a couple of cigarettes a day it wouldn't do much to you. Ur body would be able to handle it.



    On a side note.. There is a flip side to this. People reading the health thread might get the wrong idea as well because probably the ones to visit the health threads are those who might be nervous about e-cigs, or those with anxiety, worries etc.. and those having troubling symptoms.. The people who are happy and vaping with success might not even be interested in coming here to post. So there might be an inherit bias. I would love to take a huge poll from the entire community of Users only.. no sellers.. on how long they have been vaping, how they feel etc. Just to get an idea of how well vaping is going for people and how many are actually having side effects etc.
     
  2. hubseven

    hubseven Super Member ECF Veteran

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    I have been off cigs for 1 year, thanks to vaping. I am well aware of the benefits of vaping over smoking, BUT since I don't smoke anymore I am really interested in seeing some objective, fair and honest studies done on vaping. We ARE the test group and that is unsettling. When you post anything possibly bad about vaping on this forum you are either attacked or reminded AGAIN about how bad cigs are, I know already, enough. Keeping your head in the sand really doesn't work.
     
  3. mel_vin

    mel_vin Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    What worries about vaping is this:

    As you stated, long term effects of PG/VG inhalation on the lungs
    Nicotine in this form: handling it, slightly injesting it at times
    Electicity heating up Metals in the atts/carts.

    Point one: hard one to debate, as the whole PG is found eveywhere (meds, hospitals etc). However is it really meant to be directly inhaled THAT much?

    Point two: again tricky. While there are reports of nicotine having positive effects in situations (Parkinsons, Memory etc) The form we've used to get it from was the dried plant itself (yes sprayed with all the other crap) Just how and where are they getting this nicotine from then?

    Point three: this one is interesting....people have always been scared to be arround power lines and such. There is something new floating arround about the CFL lightbulbs emiting some electromagnetic waves or something to that effect. Not that these little batts on some of these would be the same, but makes one wonder. Repeated heating of the attys to, does that metal break down slowly over time and are we inhaling it?

    OP you are bang on the money tho. Smoking is known to screw us, but after many years of use. While I have seen both sides myself of people happily vaping away with no ill effects and others (myself included) have expierenced some not so plesant symptoms at times...Our minds can work tricks on usthis has been proven. People have conituned to smoke and be fully aware of the long term consequnce and ignore. People are fast to blame vaping for everything.

    Im on the fence. Whille I would love to think that vaping is "safe" long term, when is it ever "have you cake, and eat it to"?
     
  4. paladinx

    paladinx Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    Great points Melvin. I am on the fence as well. I have read another post that you made and I think we share some things in common. I too suffer from bad anxiety and anxiety attacks, that is a whole other level that is added to this for us. We never know what is in our minds and what isn't. Im about to go on meds or something for anxiety since it can be very debilitation. I sometimes am convinced I got heart problems.. But that is another issue all together.

    I know what the other guy means too about this forum. It is a little bit PRO vaping.. and thats fine, but we shouldn't be closed minded.. Don't forget .. The fda and big tobacco are business, so is vaping.. this is a new business that is taking off and people are making money out of it. Lets be real. When cigarettes first came out doctors were telling people that they were actually good for you.. History repeats.. we just have to be objective and use common sense. Its hard to find information that we can trust.. MOST studies no matter what study usually have an intended purpose.> So even when studies to become available you have to look at the vested interest and whos funding the studies etc. Statistics is the art of portraying a certain point of view using figures.. Unless u really know what your looking for... you can easily be mislead.. So bottom line is.. all we have is each other, a little research and our common sense.

    We should use e-cigarettes as a means to quitting nicotine completely. I think those who believe using these things forever being 99 percent safer than cigarettes are being delusional. One of my concerns is how your inner organs deal with these chemicals and flavorings even PG. I mean is it smart to keep your lungs totally lubricated all the time? Who knows if bacteria can grow more easily for if your kidneys etc have a problem after awhile deposing of the waste.. Getting lactic acid buildup to me isn't a really great sign at all. But hopefully in the end it is safer than cigarettes.. we are the guinea pigs.

    And about the metal.. one person told me they are concerned about breathing the electricity.. I mean i have no idea what that means, but something about the electrons or particles given off by the atomizer.. Something about e-cigs troubles me.. But what do i have to lose.. I smoke almost 2 packs a day and totally addicted. Im going to try snus and e-cigs.. than only do snus than try to quit everything .. maybe have a cigar once in a blue. Sorry for the long rant lol.
     
  5. kinabaloo

    kinabaloo Vaping Master ECF Veteran

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    Seems 1 cig a week is almost as bad as 10 a day (see some research on this).

    The really dangerous fats are not saturated fats but plyunsaturated oils (polyunsaurates freed of their protective packaging go bad very quickly).

    It might take time, vut the harm is still the smoke not the addiction per se; one can replace the smoking with vaping - same 'addiction', no carcinogens or combustion.

    Well, none of the tobacco toxins anyway. Main carcinogen in tobacco is the radioactive polonium, imo; studies have shown that this alone could on its own cause cancer; not that the others also play a role in weakening the body.

    I agree that we might be minimising the new risks, but in my best estimate I don't see a mechanism whereby vaping could get within 1% the danger of smoking; might be nearer 0.1% But always on the lookout for pitfalls - of which flavorings and other additives are highest on the suspect list; filler burning also.

    Some individuals may not suit vaping but in general, to speculate fear is as bad as to ignore the huge benefits. No polonium and no combustion products = FAR safer. The only known serious vaping nasty is the diacetyls and related compounds (certain buttery flavorings).

    I would advise on less lung inhalation though; it's not really necessary with vaping.
     
  6. kinabaloo

    kinabaloo Vaping Master ECF Veteran

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    @paladinc

    Yiu worry too much ;)

    Some ggod points; many are blindly pro vaping. I think I have looked hard into the dangers but at this time have to cobclude that in generak there aren't any significant ones, aside from individual intolerances and certain additives. There are still a number of things I will push to improve but there's a point at which risks are so small they just pale in relation to general pollution, diet limitations, inevitable aging. Not to mention the significant ill effects of stress.

    I think one potential danger, however, lies in refilling - if done without care one could be inhaling a mouldy or infected carto.

    +++

    I have an eye on the possibility of metal inhalation; more likely from the solder than the coil itself; i rate this as possible and could be bad news if significant. Ideally soldered joints will be replaced with another mechanism. In this reagrd, cartos would be better than carts/atomizers and tanks better still; also lower voltages.

    +++

    Have a read of the 'success stories' subforum - people regaining their health, coming of med.s, measures returning to normal.

    +++

    Ome more point - if there were a clear danger found, the vaping opponents would certainly have come out with it by now.

    That smoking was dangerous only became known after decades is a myth; it was hushed for decades; the dangers were known from the early days.
     
  7. El Diablo Marrón

    El Diablo Marrón Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    I have tried mouth only vaping.. but i thought about cigarettes all the time.. i need the throat hit I get while vaping or i think about smoking. :(
     
  8. kinabaloo

    kinabaloo Vaping Master ECF Veteran

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    You can get good TH while inhaling only a little; alittle hard to explain but worth experimenting a bit (in fact it's better without the deep inhale). Try also slow exhale rgtough the nose for some extra hit.
     
  9. paladinx

    paladinx Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    kinabaloo.. Great point on refilling cartos.. that is something I never really thought about, but makes perfect sense.

    I agree with your points but at the same time I kind of see them a little differently. Firstly, the dangers of cigarettes weren't public until decades later. Yeah someone had an idea at one point, but no one is going to threatened their business and that is a constant that will never change. Sometimes you need time to know if something is bad or not, same with medications.. Some that get passed the FDA and clinical trials still get recalled years later.. etc etc..

    I still stand by what I said that it isn't the smoke that is the killer but the addiction. This is not to be taken literally but in a common sense way. Cigarettes have horrible things in them but its only in small percentages. And the common sense part has to do with looking at those with disease from smoking and seeing how much cigarette smoke they had to consume and for how long on average.. The amount of smoke is staggering. This means it takes a lot of abuse to cause damage. And the block of cheese example was not meant to be taken literally as well. It was to suggest that even though cheese does not have any known toxins in it,, over consuming it would lead to disease as well. Alcohol is a poisen,, a small glass of wine a day is actually good for you, but for people addicted to alcohol who drink all day long it kills them. So what is the killer the alcohol or the addiction to it?
     
  10. jj2

    jj2 Moved On Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    For decades facts about smoking were hidden, but we knew smoking was bad and most likely was going to kill most of us in the end.

    No we don't know if Vaping is any better since it hasn't been around that long, but if there was any proof out there that is was just as bad or worse, it would be all over the headlines. And I'm not talking about the fact that some people have allergic reactions to PG /VG/ Flavorings.
    Right now the FDA, or any other antis, can not positively say vaping is worse so they cling to the minor negatives that they found and they desperately use them (and 'the children') in their propaganda tactics to save the golden cow (taxes, money from BT, etc).

    Since it is so new, it's impossible to get the proof that vaping is 99% safer in the long term. That leaves us in the middle of both so basically it's up to each individual person: Listen to what your body is telling you. Most of us see a doctor at least once a year. Have that doctor check you over thoroughly while you are there.

    I've been vaping for about 2 1/2 years now. I have dealt with vaping allergies and worked them out. My doctor just checked me over and I'm doing fine. In my smoking days, my doctor use to insist I have a lung x-ray done every 5 years when I was younger, later it was every 3 years, and at the end of my smoking days, it was every year due to bronchial problems and COPD.
    Considering that the bronchial problems and the COPD are gone and just how much better I'm feeling over all, I think every year is a bit excessive, but, even if I don't have insurance that will cover a lung x-ray just because I'd like one done, I'm going to try to work it into the budget around my three year mark. It will be done because we are the lab rats and I'd like to know what's going on in my lungs.
     
  11. paladinx

    paladinx Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    yeah good points.. But that is just the thing, Its not enough time. You look through this health thread and it is kind of scary sometimes.. How people are reacting to it in such a small period of time. Some having to quit vaping,, Others getting pneumonia from it.
    I am not sure if it is just silliness on my part, or the devil you know type mentality, but something about vaping freaks me out a little bit. I just think i need to go forward with it and give it a chance and see how my body reacts.

    I think a good thing for this place to do is have a survey of users only.. no dealers or sellers and especially t hose vaping now for a few years to hear how it has been for them. I wonder what the real percentage is of people having "allergies" or side effects.. if its super common or just a minority. I hate using the word allergy because I feel like if you are going to make the argument that PG is in EVERYTHING than lets not say everyone has an allergy to it.. I feel like symptoms get written off as an allergic reaction because that sounds better. It could be a certain ingredient not even related to PG/VG, it could be a flavor, the device itself, some other chemical.. there are a lot of variables and question marks..

    either way I have a kit coming and will give it a shot and see how it goes.
     
  12. kinabaloo

    kinabaloo Vaping Master ECF Veteran

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    I think the withdrawal symptoms of smoking account for much of the experiences.

    Not lung inhaling so much, at least at first (though I recommend always) is good advice. And care re refilling and storage.
     
  13. paladinx

    paladinx Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    Yeah true.. I am sure a lot of people get withdrawal and than think its the E-cigs ..but there are some who have quit smoking before and know the symptoms and they seemed to think something was different.. One thing that bothered me was the ecig user who died of pneumonia. Now its not clear if e-cigs really caused it or not.. However, I have a friend who got pneumonia and his doctor said it was from the e-cig.. again not totally sure..

    The best report i read on PG, was that study done on the monkeys.. I don't really remember any other studies like that one.. But as far as the FDA's finding on PG.. i find them unrelated because even fog machines aren't meant to inhale 7 days a week.. and the PG in cigarettes is in a very tiny amounts I believe.. Plus cigarettes burn at different temperatures.

    They should have a forum wide poll for users and their experiences so far. My goal is to use snus and e-cigs to quit smoking and that way I don't do snus or e-cigs too much.. i will like try and use both to space them out.
     
  14. kinabaloo

    kinabaloo Vaping Master ECF Veteran

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    PG is antimicrobial; but that doesn't necessarily mean it couldn't be to blame in some ways.

    Have a link to that story about pneumonia who died ?

    edit: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...attempts-implicate-e-cigarettes-uk-death.html
     
  15. kinabaloo

    kinabaloo Vaping Master ECF Veteran

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    If one's e-liquid has any separation apparent - different layers - it is best reported on the forum and chucked away.

    An 'oil' is any organic liquid that does not mix with water (not a class of chemical as such). Small amounts of oil might mix when alcohol is also present. Some flavorings are themselves oils, regardless of the base they come in. This covers a very broad range of chemicals, beyond the alkanes that form mineral oil (which used to be used in fog machines and has very long-lasting visible vapor).

    Those with dimished lung function should try to minimise lung inhalation. Or, on balance, when have a lung infection.
     
  16. paladinx

    paladinx Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    Thanks for that link. I will check it out..

    Yeah I hear about fog machines a lot when we talk about e-cigs and the safety aspects of it. I think its a good sign that it is used in fog machines, but I believe its a whole different game all together.. No one breaths in a fog machine directly 7 days a week etc.

    The thing is, I hate when we all bicker back and forth about things like safety or what causes what.. I have seen both sides fight back and forth and its pointless because its speculation on both sides.. I just wish we could have a way to help each other out. regardless if you are a vaing diehard or you are skeptical.. We all have a common goal.. We went to quit smoking and maintain the satisfaction of the act of smoking in the safest way possible. Its hard to get the real facts because you have different sides with different vested interests.. People who want to profit off E-cigs, people who want to profit off nicotine patches, the gov't, everyone has their own interests. We have to stick together and watch each others backs and help each other out because no one else is going to do it. Part of that is sharing our own stories in the health section good and bad.. I wish people who didn't have any complaints still visited here and posted their positive experiences.. Sometimes I feel like only the negatives even feel the need to come to this section.

    If there is something wrong that we are missing.. if people start dropping dead in 10 years from now they will just have a reason to ban the whole idea all together.. Thats why we need to do our best to make sure any damage is minimized to keep the industry alive long term.

    regards
     
  17. kinabaloo

    kinabaloo Vaping Master ECF Veteran

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    I agree we need to be on guard regarding daily glycol inhalation. I'm thinking infection here in particular, even though on the face of it PG at least should act to counter infection. For example, inflammation response in some might be a greater effect; but that's just a possibility. There might just be a syndrome that resembles infection but is something else, based on intolerance or inability to deal with (absorb) the levels of glycols inhaled.

    If there is going to be something show up only years later it will more likely be due to additives (sweeteners, flavorings, trace amounts of say oils and such, VG breakdown, persistent irritation by PG, filler burning products). But PG / VG inhalation daily might have concerns of its own.

    As it stands today, and considering that vaping is essentially a smoking alternative, there's no cause to panic, just to be cautious.

    Do have a read here : E-Cigarette Success Stories
     
  18. kinabaloo

    kinabaloo Vaping Master ECF Veteran

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    If DIYing, PG should always be pharma grade.
     
  19. kinabaloo

    kinabaloo Vaping Master ECF Veteran

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    I think there might be a sizable sub-group of people for whom neither VG or PG (or PEG) will sit well, and so I'm thinking t would be good if there was on the market a glycol-free e-liquid; the base would ne something like 90% distilled water and 10% ethanol. It would produce no visible vapor sadly but otherwise could deliver the nicotine or WTA effectively.
     
  20. paladinx

    paladinx Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    Yeah great points guys.. these are the types of convos we should have on here, too many times people argue back and forth, which isn't always a bad thing, but working together will probably work a lot better..

    btw have any of you guys heard of the ploom? I saw a video of it on youtube and it seemed interesting.. It vaporizes tobacco, without burning it.. and it works on butane instead of a battery.. I have no idea in regards to safety, but the idea is pretty clever. I wonder how much safer vaporizing tobacco vs burning it is..
     
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