Evolv sues Joyetech over VW technology !

[suprtrkr]

I think there is confusion about what is being sued and what was patented.

Looks to me like evolve is suing over their dna200 patented chip.
The dna200 chip is VW technology.
Hence the catchy headline (designed to cause controversy as usual) : "evolve sues over vw technology"

Meanwhile as part of a lawsuit, a typical lawyer will often negotiate from the ridiculous end of the spectrum first and back off from there.

I read the pleading. They're suing over VW in general, and name every VW product in Joye's line. This post has a photo of the two boards side by side. It is self evident they use different ICs arranged in a different configuration, they just happen to be mounted on boards that fit interchangeably in the same case. I have a link to the pleading if you want to read it, but I can't post it because it's through another board the system will not allow links to.

 

[skoony]

@sofarsogood
Not necessarily. Resistance can be determined by knowing the current and voltage.
When resistance changes current changes at a given voltage. By calculating the
change one can determine the correct voltage to obtain the desired wattage.
So with a voltage detector and a amperage detector interfaced with a cpu
to calculate and determine the changes needed to maintain the desired
total power.
regards
mike

 

[suprtrkr]

I'm not an electronics guy. Does regulating watts depend on knowing the resistance of the coil? My impression has been that sensing ohms is for safety.

Technically, no. In practice, yes. It is technically possible to regulate watts without knowing resistance using the formula V x I. That is, a circuit might control voltage and limit current to regulate watts. In practice, in vape mods, the reisitance is crucial; mods use the V^2/R formula to get there. That's why so many mods allow you to lock resistance with a new atty. And the reason most mods will permit resistances only within certain ranges is because the voltage the board can produce, and the ability to measure resistance by the board, is limited.

 

[suprtrkr]

This should be a direct link to evlves patent.
Patent US8820330 - Electronic vaporizer that simulates smoking with power control

I scanned the patent, didn't try to read it in detail. It appears to me they are claiming rights to most any means of regulating watts to any device used for inhaling vapor as we customarily do. The first claim,
"a user input device configured to allow a user to select a wattage setting from a plurality of wattage settings, wherein the wattage setting corresponds to a power level in watts to be delivered to a heating element for vaporizing a material during a simulated smoking session;"

I believe they mean any method of regulating watts for the purpose of supplying power to an atomizer. They didn't invent ecigs and didn't invent regulatied power via voltage or regulted watts in thousands of other devices. They claim a patent on contoling a vaporizer by watts rather than volts or wire resistance. They don't present any specific way of doing it. They just want to own the idea of doing it no matter how it's accomplishedd. IF I'm understanding the claims correctly I don't think it's a slam dunk for Evolv. I'm guessing there have been plenty of patent lawsuits that are similar and will be used by one side or the other, assuming it goes to trial.

I'm a life long garage inventor. I developed some novel and useful things that I manufactured and brought to market and made money. Products included some patented items but the money makers were not patented. I protected the business by being first to market AND capitalizing on that by delivering top quality for a fair price or, to keep competitors at bay, was the least cost provider for certain key items. (No I'm not going to get into specifics.) Manufacturing couldn't be simpler, buy raw materials, add value, sell for a profit. The more of something you can make the closer the cost will come to the bare cost of raw materials. An invention, to be patentable needs two things, novelty and utility. So, is the evolve invention sufficiently novel, is it so unobvious, that it deserves patent protection? I suspect that's what the dispute will come down to.

I didn't buy a DNA 40 because it was too much money for what was offered--for me. I would by a DNA200 device, if the programing features were available in a single 18650 mod. There needs to be a DNA75 with all the DNA capabilites except power. (I'm really talented at being out of step with the market.)

That's how I read the pleading too.

 

[Marc411]

I attached a copy of the filing as a PDF.

This statement was made by Evolv in one of their videos.

"We will not use this patent to go after other companies and hurt the industry, We only did it so a patent troll wouldn't do that"

Interesting turn of events. Joytech was targeted because of their market share, they have surpassed Evolv by making an afford and reliable device. I think Evolv stumbling with the DNA40 chip turned some folks away. I own 3 DNA40's and all three had problems, Evolv resolved them but it was a hassle.

Some people put them in the same bucket as Microsoft, we were Beta testers.

Plumes of Hazard Episode 114 talks about the filing. It starts at the 1:52 mark and they also mention the quote I posted above at around the 1:56 mark.

 

[sofarsogood]

That's how I read the pleading too.

So it;s Evolve against the entire industry. I would expect other companies to be getting in touch with Joytech and offering to help them.

 

[MarkCM]

In my interpretation of the suit, after reading it entirely, word for word, is that Evolv is suing over the use of the DNA200 chip, not necessarily VW in general. I think the other VW devices manufactured by Joyetech/Wismec were simply mentioned and served as evidence of VW devices in their setup and usage. However, the suit goes into more detail concerning the RX200 and Cuboid, which, as Evolv claims, is most similar to that of the Realeaux DNA 200, in its accuracy, appearance, and own statements made by Joyetech/Wismec (basically claiming its the same device with an in house chip that works similarly to the DNA200 chip). In my opinion, Joyetech/Wismec were basically asking to be sued by coming out with a device thats so similar in every way (in the Rx200), and one that uses a similar chip (at least) with the Cuboid. Were they in the right or wrong? That's not up to me to decide, but I do think Evolv has a good case here.

Of course, this has potentially positive and negative consequences for the industry as a whole, regardless of which side comes out on top. Either we're going to be "stuck" with "low quality" devices, while Evolv, who's chip is superior in my opinion, falls by the wayside and is driven out of the market, leaving us with less satisfying devices. Or Evolv wins, and we could potentially see a lot of "budget friendly" devices cleared off the market, hurting those of us who can't afford the high end stuff and desperately need to get off the cigs. Hopefully, in the end, it works out best for us consumers. After all, I do enjoy both my Evic VTC Mini and my two DNA200 devices, and would like to have these plethora of options heading into the future.

 

[crxess]

It's all about the money in the long run anyway.
Evolve could have just as easily had the product manufactured off Shore and raked in the profits.

Will wait for the fireworks and see if this drives up pricing or causes industry supply loss.

 

[Robert Cromwell]

So people will just start buying their VW mods from FT and such vs US vendors if Evolve wins their suit.
And the Chinese ecig companies will remove their USA offices.
And they will no longer purchase Evolve chips.
And Evolve chips will be relegated to $300 plus mods and their chip sales will plummet.

Evolves suit will mainly just hurt US consumers of VW mods and the US retailers who sell non Evolve VW mods.

 

[Robert Cromwell]

personally I think that Evolve is just having a hissy fit over the RX 200 vastly out sellling the model with the DNA200 chip in it.

 

[suprtrkr]

personally I think that Evolve is just having a hissy fit over the RX 200 vastly out sellling the model with the DNA200 chip in it.

So do I.

 

[Douggro]

I was wonder What Amount has been stated?

From what I skimmed through, they did not have specified damages as part of the suit, leaving it to be determined during the trial.

 

[USMCotaku]

I am all for a company being able to protect their creations with a patent, I am just not sure if this one will hold up. Did eVolve create variable wattage regulation? No, they just found a way to implement it in a vape device. I am also a bit concerned about what this will do to the vape world. If they win, how many shops will it effect? (guess that will depend on if a settlement is reached, and if joyetech pays to continue to use VW in their devices)

Sent from my LGMS631 using Tapatalk

 

[USMCotaku]

My guess is that Provape did its legal homework and worked out a solution with Evolv prior to the release of the P3 and Radius.

Hope so.

Sent from my LGMS631 using Tapatalk

 

[Douggro]

I've followed some of the cases in the technology "patent-troll" arena over the past few years. This case certainly doesn't fit that mold, since Evolv actually does design, produce and sell a product. It was suggested earlier in this thread that Evolv filed the 330 patent specifically to prevent some other entity from filing for and receiving a broad, general patent that could be applied to products that Evolv was making - i.e., snubbing a potential "troll" from going after them. Would there then not be some not-so-subtle irony that they are taking that very patent to wield against a partner-manufacturer for infringing on said patent? ("Here, let's file a broad patent with just enough specificity to cover our butts before someone else does.")

At any rate, the suit will almost certainly come down to arguing over two points:

1. Whether the 330 patent includes any design and application of original creation on behalf of Evolv in their controls; and
2. Did the defendants copy, reverse-engineer, or knowingly implement features and functions covered under the 330 patent.

Evolv is seeking treble damages - unspecified amount, but I can speculate that they will request that defendants produce sales figures of devices and calculate lost sales of Evolv boards and derive a figure from that, plus punitive damages - and a permanent injunction from defendants being allowed to manufacture, market or sell infringing products immediately.

Personally, I think Evolv is on somewhat unsteady ground as far as their patent is concerned. In principle, the patent is generally applying existing technology to a specific application, and I see there is enough room to have the "prior art" argument allow for vacating the patent. The abuses by the patent trolls has made the courts much more aware of the sometimes vague and specious nature of technology and intellectual property patents and they have become less swift and keen to side with plaintiffs in such cases.

In the end, it may come down to who has the financial resolve to see the case through the courts. If that's the case, Joyetech has the upper hand..

 

[Mazinny]

I think there is confusion about what is being sued and what was patented.

Looks to me like evolve is suing over their dna200 patented chip.
The dna200 chip is VW technology.
Hence the catchy headline (designed to cause controversy as usual) : "evolve sues over vw technology"

Meanwhile as part of a lawsuit, a typical lawyer will often negotiate from the ridiculous end of the spectrum first and back off from there.

Curious where you get the notion that the DNA200 chip specifically was patented ?

They refer to patent '330 over and over in the complaint, i.e.

Patent US8820330 - Electronic vaporizer that simulates smoking with power control

No mention of any other patent specific to the DNA 200.

 

[ScandaLeX]

Evolv just screwed themselves into a no win situation. If they lose the case buh bye patent, if they win the case and drive affordable boards from the market they piss off a huge customer base.

I have a feeling this case is going to be tied up in court for a long time anyway. {IMO} if they do happen to win, they'd have to lower their prices & make people want to buy because people are still going to seek out what's cheaper if they cannot afford the high price tag.

 

[Lighty269]

It would appear that Evolv is using Prior Art, take a look at variable wattage & temp control in a soldering iron. I have been using one of these for many years, long before ecigs came around. If Joytech sights this, Evolv won't stand a chance.

 

[Oliver]

Some thoughts.

Firstly, as @Douggro points out above, it's totally out of line to call Evolv patent trolls. Whatever one thinks of the patent system generally, one has to agree that Evolv has acted entirely within the spirit of that system.

They have continuously made their product, sold their product, spent on R&D and brought out new versions. That's NOT patent trolling in any reasonable sense of the phrase.

A patent troll is, fundamentally, a person or organisation which buys up patents with no intention of making the claimed invention, but simply to extort money from those who do. This, to me, needs reforming - there should be a limitation on patents in cases where the owner does not make the claimed invention. But this certainly does not apply in any sense in Evolv's case.

Also, there's a tendency to cast Evolv as somehow malfeasant for patenting something which vapers think is "obvious" - i.e. Wattage control. But that's kinda the point in patents! It may seem obvious 5 years on, but in 2011 it certainly was not, and Evolv changed the way we vape.

Very soon after they started to produce their original DNA, their devices were being copied. Imagine that - you spend a good period of your life R&Ding a device, knowing that there's only a limited period for which you'll be able to profit from it, and some guy with access to cheap labor and components just rips you off.

And I note that there's a tendency to claim that Evolv are simply trying to rip off vapers by making sure that only their (more expensive) devices are sold. This is so disingenuous it's not true. The implication is that a 200watt device with all the bells and whistles is somehow necessary for smokers to stop smoking.

Reality check - this is a TINY proportion of the market. Absolutely minuscule - despite the high visibility of devices like this in the online world, I'd suggest that it's less than 1% of all vape consumers who buy 200 watt devices. It's a niche product within a niche. The idea that people should be able to buy such niche products cheaply is a form of special pleading that simply doesn't apply to other products. Imagine - you want a massive 8K TV right, but you want to pay less for it. Well, you might be able to, in 2 or 3 years time - but right now the manufacturers are going to sell that for a premium to the "innovator" section of the market and make back their R&D and tooling. That's simply what Evolv wish to do, and I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to.

If 200 watts were needed for people to stop smoking, I might think differently, but it's not, so I don't. Evolv have a range of products they sell at a range of prices, and the DNA200 is their current premium. Next year it will be something else. I'd like that to continue, wouldn't everyone?

 

[suprtrkr]

Well said. They could lose their patent over it. It's going to be hard to argue wattage cintrol is unique in PVs. It exists in a lot of other heating applications.

I've followed some of the cases in the technology "patent-troll" arena over the past few years. This case certainly doesn't fit that mold, since Evolv actually does design, produce and sell a product. It was suggested earlier in this thread that Evolv filed the 330 patent specifically to prevent some other entity from filing for and receiving a broad, general patent that could be applied to products that Evolv was making - i.e., snubbing a potential "troll" from going after them. Would there then not be some not-so-subtle irony that they are taking that very patent to wield against a partner-manufacturer for infringing on said patent? ("Here, let's file a broad patent with just enough specificity to cover our butts before someone else does.")

At any rate, the suit will almost certainly come down to arguing over two points:

1. Whether the 330 patent includes any design and application of original creation on behalf of Evolv in their controls; and
2. Did the defendants copy, reverse-engineer, or knowingly implement features and functions covered under the 330 patent.

Evolv is seeking treble damages - unspecified amount, but I can speculate that they will request that defendants produce sales figures of devices and calculate lost sales of Evolv boards and derive a figure from that, plus punitive damages - and a permanent injunction from defendants being allowed to manufacture, market or sell infringing products immediately.

Personally, I think Evolv is on somewhat unsteady ground as far as their patent is concerned. In principle, the patent is generally applying existing technology to a specific application, and I see there is enough room to have the "prior art" argument allow for vacating the patent. The abuses by the patent trolls has made the courts much more aware of the sometimes vague and specious nature of technology and intellectual property patents and they have become less swift and keen to side with plaintiffs in such cases.

In the end, it may come down to who has the financial resolve to see the case through the courts. If that's the case, Joyetech has the upper hand..