Interesting conversation with my Doc today - Silica Wicks

[Soundhunter]

So.. I'm at my doctor for the annual (getting older sucks...but it's a heck of a lot better than the alternative - figure that if i am on this side of the dirt I'm doing good )...anyway, I told him that since I had last seen him I had quit smoking and am now vaping. He was not familiar with the term but when I described it to him he knew what I was talking about. His reaction was pretty much what I expected.. He would rather I not smoke at all but if i was "hell bent" on it ..might as well be this.

Then I asked him about Silica in the lungs.. referring to that huge thread on here about safe vs non-safe wicking materials. I did the best to explain what I was talking about and then I remembered that I had my PV in my backpack (carry that thing almost everywhere)..so i thought that instead of any feeble attempt to explain it, I would just show him. Pulled out ProV with the VN on it and showed him the wicks, etc. To my surprise, he says "show me how this works" so I fired it up and took a nice long toot

Obviously a smart guy.. I didn't have to really explain to him the mechanical process so he then asked me .."So whats the question?" and I explain to him about the concerns voiced in that thread and his response was very interesting. First, he says ""Are you drinking the juice".. of course not and then to paraphrase his answer he says:

You were a smoker putting stuff into your lungs and body that would be of far more concern but what he didn't understand is how a sliver or strand of silica could enter your body thru vapor thats been heated at anywhere near a rate that would cause concern especially in light of the fact that the flavors contained in the liquid along with nicotine are really untested and any real-world, widely acceptable manner. He cited that the reaction of all the ingredients combined under heat is of far more concern than the obscure (and "unlikely") possibility of heating the silica to the point where it would be medical risk of any significant measure in comparison.

He actually commended the community for being concerned about the potential health risk associated with vaping and asking questions, but he says that sometimes when in uncharted territory.. and that is certainly where we are... there can be a lot of "cart before the horse type thinking".. He's got a good sense of humor and wraps up by saying... "You need to be a lot more worried about whether that Amaretto/French Vanilla juice you are smoking is going to shrivel up your boys then if you are getting candle wick shards in your lungs"...

he is a funny guy and a good doc... It was just thought provoking to me though and I was hoping to get some of your thoughts



anybody care to discuss??

 

[cyclotron]

Sounds like you have a good doctor. I certainly will be interested in testing done in a scientific manner if/when that is done.

 

[jcarabelos]

Well, to be frank, I don't think a medical practitioner is really a good source for saying whether or not the physics behind an atomizer containing silica can cause silica dust/shards to become airborne. In a commonsense physics perspective, it makes sense that it's possible, and so it makes sense that the shards/dust showed up on the slides that were posted in that thread. NOT TO SAY that that's good enough scientific evidence that silica is being inhaled at a rate that will cause problems, but when you read about silicosis it makes you wonder whether the risk is worth the possible harm. As far as the flavoring goes, there's no doubt that there is reason to be concerned about that too. We really need some genuine scientific research on these topics, rather than continuing to stumble in the dark wondering if this doctor's right or that poster is right, because in the end, without the research there are no right answers.

Obviously I'm not a medical doctor, and I'm not purporting to be an expert, just giving my

 

[gthompson]

I rewick just as soon as they start looking the least bit frazzled, just in case. Wick and wire are cheap.

 

[jcarabelos]

I rewick just as soon as they start looking the least bit frazzled, just in case. Wick and wire are cheap.

This is what I've been doing lately because I have so much silica wick lying around. But I'm switching to cotton and/or mesh as soon as I'm out. But that's just me being a hypochondriac.

 

[jcarabelos]

Probably.

 

[Cool_Breeze]

I recently purchased some Kanger (assumed legit) T2 cartomizers. They contain short wicks that protruded from either side of the center tube. While removing them for replacement with other materials, it was obvious that they were shedding even though they had not been used.

 

[LucentShadow]

I have experienced what I suspect to be silica fibers stuck in my tongue and throat, on a few occasions. I have no proof of that, but evidence seemed to indicate it. That said, I have some doubts about any of them making into my lungs. I do know that I don't miss the stabby pains in my mouth that I don't get anymore, since switching wick material...

I've followed the thread that you mentioned since it's inception, and there has been little discussion of that matter since the first few pages. That which is on-topic at all is mostly discussion about the merits or possible dangers of plant-based fibers, such as cotton, viscose bamboo (bamboo-based rayon), and a few other types of twine. Most have become fans of how well they perform, compared to silica.

Personally, I use bamboo crochet thread, and find it to be an exceptional performer. I personally don't think that there is a great safety issue with either that or silica, and I agree with the Doc about the flavorings.

 

[Thrasher]

Ok i could be very wrong but I would think that with as small as the wick is in general to start with, the amount of material needed to start causing problems from inhalation would cause the wick to show massive deterioration and in a seriously short amount of time, one way to go about informal testing is to remove the wick when purchased new, and weigh it, couple milligrams/micrograms maybe? then use it for a month, remove it from the coil and clean it thoroughly, dry completely and then weight it again, then under magnification examine the wick for fraying and or damaged areas (especially around the coiled part) and see if there is a noticeable amount of strand material missing.

Also unless directly heating the fluid the wick is submersed in the chances of actually pulling wick fragments in your lungs from the vapor stream would be limited to the 1 or 2 millimeter section wrapped in the coil head, directly above the air intake stream. again if there was a substantial amount of material being removed the wick would show damage in an excessively short time in this area.

seeing the amount of tar material inhaled from just one cig i wouldnt worry about the off chance of a microscopic particle that may or may not be inhaled.
there is also a chance that using a new wick there is excessive dust from the manufacturing process left on the surface, suggesting you may reduce this further by not using it until rinsed once first.

And then on top of that the amount of silica needed to actually cause problems is nowhere near what you would get from that little wick
From OSHA:
Silicosis is classified into three types: chronic/classic, accelerated,
and acute.

Chronic/classic silicosis, the most common, occurs after 15–20 years of moderate to low exposures to respirable crystalline silica. Symptoms associated with chronic silicosis may or may not be obvious; therefore, workers need to have a chest x-ray to determine if there is lung damage. As the disease progresses, the worker may experience shortness of breath upon exercising and have clinical signs of poor oxygen/carbon dioxide exchange. In the later stages, the worker may experience fatigue, extreme shortness of breath, chest pain, or respiratory failure.

Accelerated silicosis can occur after 5-10 years of high exposures to respirable crystalline silica. Symptoms include severe shortness of breath, weakness, and weight loss. The onset of symptoms takes longer than in acute silicosis.

Acute silicosis occurs after a few months or as long as 2 years following exposures to extremely high concentrations of respirable crystalline silica. Symptoms of acute silicosis include severe disabling shortness of breath, weakness, and weight loss, which often leads to death.

 

[jcarabelos]

It is important to remember that silocosis and other lung diseases take around 5-10 years minimum to develop. Also, based on the low amounts that silica users are exposed to, it could take 20 years before they knew there was a problem and at that time it would be too late. Just saying that these anecdotes don't necessarily show much to go from.

Sent from my AT100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[jcarabelos]

I also fervently disagree with the mentality that because we have reduced the risks compared to smoking we shouldn't be concerned. These issues should be just as disconcerting, because lung disease in any form is something that should be avoided. In the end I didn't pick ecigs because they are the lesser of two evils. I chose them because I believe they have the potential to do no or very little harm.

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[AttyPops]

I use SS wicks. I do it...not because I'm scared. Not because I'm 100% sure that the flavors are safe. I do it because
A) they wick better.
B) They avoid any POTENTIAL silica issue.

It's the "Everything you need to know you learned from The Karate Kid Movie" philosophy. When something is flying at you "don't be there". And if something COULD produce silica shards....don't be there either.

That said, I still use a "normal" atomizer on occasion. Not freaking out about it. Most of the silica shards probably are removed with cleaning...not inhaling. And his concerns about e-juice are valid too. But it's harm reduction as best as I can do it.

I'm cutting down on VG too. Not as a scare tactic...but because I can.

 

[Cool_Breeze]

Those using silica wicks might monitor themselves for scratchiness in the throat.

 

[Soundhunter]

It's an interesting conversation going on here .. appreciate it ...

Guess maybe I looked at this a little differently.... To me, what my doc was saying is .."Don't miss the forest for the trees" which I expanded and said to myself.. Don't act like there is no such thing as forest fires..so to speak - The Silica wick issue was simply a primer to get my mind working..

I went back and asked myself - "why was I so addicted to smoking?"..wasnt the Nic in my case..as I had kicked that part several times in my attempts to quit.. It was the oral fixation as well as my association with the act of smoking as being relaxation/stress relief.. I knew it was a lie and more importantly it didn't make them any less deadly and I continued to put myself at high risk... 50% chance... I mean..sheesh

Fast forward to Vaping.. in the short time I have been involved in this.. I can see that what attracts me the most (outside of the supposed Harm reduction) is the taste / flavors, relaxation, stress relief... see where I am going here?

In other words - what happens if a study comes out within the next two years that shows conclusive evidence that vaping flavored e-liquid is shown to cause irreparable damage to lungs,cardiovascular, nervous system,etc.etc? How will I react to that and am I really prepared even though I state that nic addiction has not been my Achilles heel? What will i do with my oral fixation? stress relief?... I knew smokes were damaging my lungs and still didn't stop.. why do I think I would stop vaping...

I think I looked at it differently and really for the 1st time acknowledged the root instead of the fruit.. I think that's what my doctor was really getting at.. quit worrying about Silica wicks (the what/fruit/secondary detail) and deal with why (the root).. maybe be more concerned with getting involved and helping any organization that is willing to do real research to find out just exactly what we are doing here..be a part of finding out what the real "cost of doing business" is...

My "instincts" and assumptions tell me that I am engaging in a more healthy choice while indulging or pacifying my addiction.. but my instincts have been wrong many times before and as for assumptions..well..

I enjoy and will keep vaping ... just think that after today I am going to cease with the "harm reduction' thing.. because I frankly don't have a clue if what I am inhaling is more or less dangerous than cigarettes.. thats what I got from him.. cart before the horse as he said...

just thinking out loud while I enjoy some delicious Papa Smurf..

 

[Alamedean]

Those using silica wicks might monitor themselves for scratchiness in the throat.

@ Cool_Breeze, I would have to admit that once I got my Vision Mini-Vivi Nova (VVN) one month ago I do have that scratchiness in my throat. I was thinking at first how much I liked the VVN (these have the long wicks) but since reading these forums there might be something to this silica pass through of micro threads to our throats. I still use the VVN b/c it's the best vape (TH and vapor) I have experienced. Given that info, I am looking for something "cleaner" to vape. Am considering going to single coil (punched) carto with a tank on my Joyetech VV's. Not pretty but at home they just might fit the bill without the throat irritation. Bored with dripping. I vape constantly and proud that I am not smoking analogs! Time will tell me when to cease and desist inhaling.

Gobble Gobble!

 

[Iffy]

I'll get back with ya'll when I start coughing up silica balls...

 

[DC2]

Well, at least this thread answered two of my questions...

1) We are nowhere near knowing whether there is really any danger from silica wicks
2) There is no point in my reading the rest of that HUGE thread to see if they eventually get anywhere on that topic

I will now remove the bookmark I have to that thread which I was holding onto until I had the time and patience to wade through the whole thing.