ITaste VTR battery question.

Discussion in 'Variable Voltage APV Discussion' started by STLBluesNut, Oct 12, 2013.

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  1. STLBluesNut

    STLBluesNut Senior Member ECF Veteran

    The listings I have seen for the VTR have the compatible batteries listed as "18650(without protection)". What does this mean? Is one supposed to use unprotected batteries with this device? I can't imagine that is the case.

    Currently have an eVic using the Samsung battery that came with it. It is a protected battery. I can use this with the VTR yes?

    Thanks in advance.

    Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk now Free
  2. tanner150

    tanner150 Full Member Verified Member

    I can't actually speak for the VTR, but I have a Vamo V2 and you are supposed to use unprotected batteries with it due to the PV's built in protection. If you use protected batteries it can cause problems. This could possibly be the same concept with the VTR.
  3. STLBluesNut

    STLBluesNut Senior Member ECF Veteran

  4. Dconnor

    Dconnor Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    You can use the protected batteries. I started with efest 2000, and the changed to Panasonic for the better battery life. Both worked fine.
  5. Blix

    Blix Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    The device have the protection all ready, hence no need for protected batteries.
  6. Baditude

    Baditude ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    You "can" use a protected NCR/INR in a regulated mod, as long as it is accepting it without error codes or what not. It's not the ideal battery to use for your mod's optimal performance. Once you use low resistance atomizers or higher voltages which will begin to pull more amps from your battery, performance could become impaired or the battery might complain by becoming overheated. Protected batteries don't have the "high drain" load current capability that an IMR will have.

    When those listings say "unprotected" battery, they DO NOT mean a un-protected NCR/ICR li-ion battery (these should never be used in a mod).

    They mean a "high drain" IMR (li-mn or lithium manganese), also known as a "safe chemistry" and as a "unprotected battery".

    These are used in regulated mods that use buck boost circuitry to achieve variable voltage-wattage, but they are now also recommended for single voltage mechanical mods as a safer alternative to protected Li Ion batteries.

    This class will have less capacity in mAh rating compared to protected batteries, but are superior when maximum load current is required, such as in regulated mods, mechanical mods using a Kick, or using an RBA.

    The newer "hybrid" batteries by Panasonic/Orbtronic, Sony, and Samsung also fit into this category. ​These are a good choice for applications that demand both maximum load current and longer battery time.

    Below is a listing of IMR or hybrid batteries which are recommended for all applications. (Mechanical mods using extreme sub-ohm vaping require IMR or hybrid batteries with more than 10 amps of continuous discharge rate.)

    AW IMR
    18650 2000mah 10Amp CDR
    18650 1600mah 24A

    Samsung hybrid (LiNiCoMnP)
    INR18650-22P 2200mAh 10A
    INR18650-20R 2000mah 22A

    18650 1500mah 20A

    Panasonic ​or Orbtronic hybrid
    CGR18650CH (IMR/hybrid) 2250mAh 10A
    NCR18650PD (LiNiCoAl) 2900mAh 10A

    Efest IMR
    18650 (IMR/hybrid) 2250mAh 10A
    18650 2000mAh 10A
    18650 1600mAh 30A

    us18650v3 IMR 2250mAh 10A
    us18650vct3 (hybrid) 1600mAh 30A

    * AW IMR 18490 (1100mah) 8.8A

    *AW IMR 18350 ​(700mah) 6A​

    **The Panasonic NCR18650B 3400mAh is not a high drain battery and only has a 6.8 amp limit.

    Battery Basics for Mods: IMR or Protected?
  7. Maggie3199

    Maggie3199 Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Thank you for this, Bad. I've been going around and around in my head (it's crowded in there) about this battery question for a while now. Now that we have your attention, would you explain flat top vs. button top?? :D
  8. Baditude

    Baditude ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Some manufacturers design the positive battery contact to only accept a button top battery, such as Provape does for the Provari. This is done intentionally as a safety measure, as it prevents a battery from being installed upside down which would cause reverse polarity - not a good thing to happen.

    Using magnets on a flat top battery in order for it to work in a mod like the Provari is considered dangerous and an unsafe battery practice. Doing this with a Provari will void Provape's warranty.
  9. Maggie3199

    Maggie3199 Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Thanks for such a fast answer and for all that you do here on ROCK!!:thumb::thumb::thumb:
  10. STLBluesNut

    STLBluesNut Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Thanks for the reply. I will be using the Samsung 18650 that came standard with my evic. I think it is 2400 mah.

    Sent from my HTC EVO 4g LTE now Free
  11. VapPornRules

    VapPornRules Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Might a 6.8 amp limit be sufficient for the VTR? Is there any way to calculate the max draw on a buck boost unit?

    I note this also because you have listed the AWIMR 18350 which only has a 6 amp limit (as it is a shorter battery with less capacity, obviously). Nonetheless, the NCR18650B would be superior to the AWIMR 18350, no?
  12. Baditude

    Baditude ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    The goal is to not exceed a battery's capabilities by not asking it to supply more than it is able to. It will try to do more than it is able to, but the result will be an over-heated battery which will begin to degrade internally and potentially proceed to destroy itself in thermal runaway.

    As long as you know the battery's continuous discharge rate (amp draw), you can use Ohm's Law to decide if you will be using a battery within its safe capabilities. When you know the coil resistance and the voltage used, you can find the amps needed to fire the coil. The "current" will be the amperage used.

    Ohm's Law Calculator

    The big difference between the 3400mah Panny and the 700 mAh AW is in the chemistry of the batteries. The AW is a high drain IMR battery which has a higher reserve of burst power than the Panasonic, whose chemistry is not a high drain, but a high capacity NCR designed for higher mAh in lower amperage applications. Different chemistries for different applications.

    The Panasonic NCR18650B may struggle with the demands of a regulated mod, while the AW will not. There's more to picking a battery than just a higher mAh rating, which can be a rather dubious figure anyway. It's really not fair to compare an 18350 battery with an 18650; but just the fact that the smaller AW has a similar amp rating to the larger Panasonic suggests the Panasonic being subpar in the amperage category for its size.

    The Panasonic NCR18650B is "best suited" for a mechanical mod using common commercially-made low/standard resistance coils. That is the reason that I did not include it in the recommended list. All the others in the list can be used for all applications in both regulated or unregulated mods.
  13. VapPornRules

    VapPornRules Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Right, but on a VV device, do I know what voltage to use in the Ohm's law equation? It seems like I don't. Do I use the battery voltage or the "set" voltage?

    If I have a Panasonic with a max discharge rate of 6.8 amps, I guess I can safely use it at 6 volts with a 1 ohm resistor, correct? (Ohm's law tells me its a 6 amp draw). But this doesn't make sense - if the battery is low on charge (say 3.4 volts), on a 1 ohm resistor, Ohms law tells me I am only drawing 3.4 amps. It seems to me that I don't have sufficient information to apply Ohm's law.
  14. Baditude

    Baditude ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Your regulated device has built-in amp limits. I doubt that it would fire a 1.0 ohm coil at 6 volts (6 amps) due to its amp limit (3.5 amps?).

    I never said that the Panasonic NCR18650B couldn't be used in a regulated mod, but it is not the best suited battery for one. An IMR safe chemistry battery will allow for a more optimal performance.
  15. VapPornRules

    VapPornRules Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Right, but the point is Ohm's law does not appeart to be the right equation to use here. On a mechanical, unregulated device, the current drops as the battery voltage drops. On a regulated device, I would expect the current might actually INCREASE as the voltage drops in order to maintain the vape. Because we are talking about regulated devices, we need to understand how they work in order to understand what the maximum current draw is at any given time. I defiinitely do not understand how they work and I am looking for someone to explain it to me! Ohm's law is not the answer.
  16. VapPornRules

    VapPornRules Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

  17. Michael Curry

    Michael Curry Super Member ECF Veteran

    You have to use unprotected, because a protected 18650 is too long and the battery door will not close on the VTR.
  18. Baditude

    Baditude ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Again, there's a purpose to that. The VTR is a regulated mod and was designed to use an IMR high drain (IMR) battery, which are unprotected because of their safer chemistry.
  19. Michael Curry

    Michael Curry Super Member ECF Veteran

    Deleted by user
  20. Arnold Ziffle

    Arnold Ziffle Senior Member ECF Veteran

    mine had the same Samsung battery as my evic in it. after 36 hours of moderate vaping it has yet to turn yellow on the button. I put the battery in my evic and it said 59% remaining. awesome
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