New batt option for 18650

[jkmtwo]

Are you sure there is still someone disputing that? At least in the CGR18650CH batteries?
Edit: My response is directed to the validity of the Panasonic button-top cells.

I don't know, either way my point was directed at the comment that ChrisEU made comparing the CK batts to the Orb batts, there is no visible difference in the 2, unless he is speaking merely about the button top cells, but if he saw the button top cells he had to see the side by side on the Orbtronic site. I guess his comment just rubbed me the wrong way. Lol.

 

[jkmtwo]

I can 2nd everything he is saying, I originally got in to the "flat top" pannys because of a flashlight I have, when i got my Provari I tried the 2 I had, and didn't work, I have a V1 and a V2, doesn't work in either, I had another V2, no go, but I have a friend who has a V1, and bingo, they work fine, go figure.

I can also say I have had nothing but great service from Orbtronic, I've gotten great shipping, and not one single issue with their products. Callies seems to be the same way, I've never heard a bad word about them and the limited dealings I've had with them were superb.

Take a look at the Panasonic website picture on the right top of the page please here =
http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/includes/pdf/ACA4000CE272-CGR18650CH.pdf


I think you are misunderstanding what I'm saying here, the 1mm flat top sticks up 1mm from the top of the power cell itself, not talking about the wrapper.

I cant help what YOUR battery has, the flat top is a 1mm flat top on the panny Batt, thats what it has on it, if yours is pushed down, not a 1mm flat top that proves nothing, and 1mm is very small,,, but it is the top that is on the Panasonic, PERIOD.,,, and the one on yours appears to be one of those at that.

Orbtronic is simply a reseller, maybe a certified Panasonic repacker not sure, probably so, but there all Panasonic Batts, wheather a Orbtronic, Callies Kustom, or any real one out there, they have a 1mm flat top,,,,, I believe they have a newer button top now as well,,, but a panny Batt is a Panny Batt, and thats that. The picture on the far right does show the flat top sticking up a tad past the top of the Batt as well, the actual top piece is the 1mm, I'm not talking about your wrapper, I'm talking it sticks up 1mm from the actual power cell....... some mods have different + connections, so it may work in some not in others or a spacer could be needed in some mods, in a Reo Woodvil no spacer needed, same with a Reo Grand.

I have heard of some that they didnt make contact in there provari ( jkmtwo being one of them ) however, I own 2 Provari's and the Panasonic works in both of mine no spacer needed, this also tells me that the + connection in the Provari could be slightly differently set or the chip set could have a + or - .1-.2 as well. I only use the Callies Kustom version myself because I trust I am getting a real Panasonic from callies Kustoms, I believe Orbtronics would also sell the real deal, but I cant speak for any other then the Callies I use and have purchased, the thread is also titled New Batt option for 18650 being the Panasonic Batt, who's Wrapper is on it really shouldn't matter in my opinion because they have to be a certified Panasonic packer, to be retailing the Batt or buy from one of the wholesalers to be real, other wise I wouldn't buy from that dealer myself.


@ TennDave,,, I dont have that problem in my woodvil,,,,,,,I dont see how you could lose connection unless your spring has sagged a little also, or is worn, or has had a short, unless there is a slight spec difference in your + connection, since there all 1 of a kind hand made there could be a + or - .1 and that could do it as well, maybe a satin wrap around the batt and under the bottle would also work possibly to hold the batt a bit tighter in place, just a thought.

 

[Decidion]

Take a look at the Panasonic website picture on the right top of the page please actually both pics here, =
http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/includes/pdf/ACA4000CE272-CGR18650CH.pdf

I think you are misunderstanding what I'm saying here, the 1mm flat top sticks up 1mm from the top of the power cell itself, not talking about the wrapper.

I cant help what YOUR battery has, the flat top is a 1mm flat top on the panny Batt, thats what it has on it, if yours is pushed down, not a 1mm flat top that proves nothing, and 1mm is very small,,, but it is the top that is on the Panasonic, PERIOD.,,, and the one on yours appears to be one of those at that....

I'm not misunderstanding what you are saying. I get it that Panasonic designs/builds these with a nipple that sticks out 1mm past the case edge.

But that is not the point of this thread or what I have been saying. The original subject was the Orbtronic batteries (where I got the batteries I took photos of), and those, due to repackaging, do not stick beyond the case (or wrapping) edge. This does make a difference on the Reo Grand, as you have to depress the button further to initiate contact with the battery because the case of the battery rests against the black plastic, holding the button top further away from the metal contact below the button.

So while it's great you've shown us that Panasonic designed these to stick out 1mm, it is moot in this discussion, as that is not the case with the repackaged Orbtronic batteries that I have been talking about throughout this thread. So please do not quote my posts out of context...I was always talking about the Orbtronic and not the Panasonic batteries.

 

[mwa102464]

Sorry, but do you have the specs handy which clearly call this out? I'm not sure which repackaged battery you are specifically referring to, but this thread was originally created around the Orbtronic version, which does have a 1mm button top, but which absolutely does *not* protrude beyond the top of the battery. The button top sits on a recessed surface that is 1mm below the top of the battery case.

See my pictures as proof...especially picture 3, which is still at a very slight angle so you can see the top surface of the button top.

View attachment 94226 View attachment 94227 View attachment 94228

Uhm really ? You new huh ? but you "called" Me for info, now ask me not to post,,,,,, ROTFLMAO,, Sorry but you didnt start the thread, and the topic is the Panasonic Batt, which Orbtrinic, Callies, and numerous others sell,,,, and all have the same specs on this particular one. Oh and take something flat like a business card stand it on it's edge and put it on top of the 1mm flat top part and see if there is a space between the business card and the top of the wrapper, I think you will find there is, as the one you have pictured is the same as all of them and there will be a space showing the flat top sticks up a tad. I'm out a here dont have time to argue with ya.

Oh and your quote says " which does have a 1mm button top" sorry but these Batts dont have a 1mm button top like you quoted,,, in fact they have a 1mm flat top, just so you see the difference between the 2 you can look here = http://www.lygte-info.dk/info/Battery button or flat UK.html

 

[Decidion]

Uhm really ? You new huh ? but you "called" Me for info, now ask me not to post,,,,,,

All I asked was for some documentation to support your claim, not to get excited. I never asked you not to post, I only told you to not quote me out of context.

...Sorry but you didnt start the thread, and the topic is the Panasonic Batt, which Orbtrinic, Callies, and numerous others sell,,,, and all have the same specs on this particular one.

No I didn't start the thread, but I have participated since the beginning. The original link was for the Orbtronic battery, which is what I have focused my posts on.

...Oh and take something flat like a business card stand it on it's edge and put it on top of the 1mm flat top part and see if there is a space between the business card and the top of the wrapper, I think you will find there is, as the one you have pictured is the same as all of them and there will be a space showing the flat top sticks up a tad....

Not on the Orbtronic batteries I have, and according to the drawing in the link you posted previously, they are not the same.

...I'm out a here dont have time to argue with ya....

Whew. And I thought it was just a constructive discussion. Next time the gloves come off!

...Oh and your quote says...

Now wait...I thought you left?

 

[jkmtwo]

I've owned both, MWA and I had a bit of di sagreement about this a while back, so I ordered th e CK batts expecting a difference in the 2, there is none

The wrappers outer edge protrudes from the battery giving it a bit of a lip around the battery, in the center there IS a 1mm elevated flat top., the flat top is taller than the lip, only slightly, and is so miniscule that you may not even be able to tell, but it is very slightly taller than the lip.

Like he said, if you place a business card or something on there you will be able to tell, use a credit or something like that you will see it.

 

[ChrisEU]

Sigh, people - I know that batteries for our PVs are a complicated issue, but I grow tired of arguing in the same kind of threads over and over again. I have been trying to help people in various forums making informed decisions about safe and good cells to use in different usage scenarios, but it never sticks.

There are a couple things people should learn about the batteries we use, preferably prior to buying:
- If you don't want to experiment, just buy the batteries your mod maker wants you to use. Yes, they are expensive. Live with it.
- Manufacturers and vendors lie. It's called marketing or sales or ignorance.
- The batteries we use are high tech products, they are designed for specific usage scenarios, and they are inherently dangerous. I think that is the reason why the big manufacturers don't sell them to end users. You can't buy a Panasonic cell from Panasonic as a user.
- There are many different types of Lithium Ion cells with very different performance profiles. Most don't fit for vaping.
- There are ways to save money that just don't make sense. You can disassemble battery packs from power tools, play ebay-lottery or buy from some unknown dude somewhere on the web. But prepare to pay double. Most likely you'll buy the AW sooner or later anyway.
- We tested a whole bunch of different batteries in the German forum, that's where and when we found the Panasonic CGR 18650CH. Thanks to SabbelMR from here =) The problem I have with this is that people don't read the whole analysis, but instead just read "Panasonic is good" and go ahead and buy the 18650CG - which is a good cell, just not for vaping. It is unprotected ICR - the big BANG type of battery.
- You simply can not judge a battery by the stuff that is printed on it. The very least data you need is a discharge curve at your needed amperage in the data sheet or, better, actually measured. A 4000 mAh battery is likely to be a lot worse than a 2000 mAh AW. Yes, its confusing.
- It's even worse when safety is a concern. There is no way of telling the chemistry of a Lithium-Ion battery without lab equipment or extensive testing.
- Just buy the AW from the well-known sources. Or go with the hybrid cells like the Panasonic CGR18650CH or the Sony US18650V3. It is another type of safe chemistry, but still considered safe enough.

Now for the direct attack.

I'm not trying to start something but this is misinformation, I've owned the ck bats and the Orbtronice bats, and I can tell you there is no difference except for the CK sticker and a price tag.

I would also appreciate some proof that the button top cells are not true Panasonic bats.....

The CK batteries ARE Panasonic CGR18650CH with an additional sticker (and that's what I said all along). They are good and safe to use. I only brought them up because the discharge diagrams on Battery test-review 18650 summary show the CK labeled Panasonics instead of just Panasonics.

I warned against blindly trusting the "nippel top" Orbtronics which look NOTHING like original Panasonic on that picture on the site. They MAY be, and the vendor tells us that they are, but there is no proof. And I can not find them on the Panasonic catalog site either: Cylindrical Type | Lithium Ion Batteries (For Europe) | Batteries & Energy Products | Panasonic Industrial Devices Europe

You know what? It doesn't look like a duck and it doesn't quack and mother duck doesn't know about it. I am not going to bet my life on its duckiness.

Of course that does not mean that they are fake, just that I wouldn't bet on it.

Please, jkmtwo, show me where I posted misinformation, or kindly leave me be, I am grumpy enough.

 

[Sterno]

the panny imr 2250 fits my grand perfect and works well took 4 1/2 hours to fully charge when i got them

 

[jkmtwo]

"Direct attack"? No what I did was challenge your statement for proof? Either you can back up what you say or not, PERIOD. Don't expect to come here and expect people to take your word for something on the basis that some guy on the internet says he knows what he is talking about. Orbtronic is a proven dealer, they have a proven track record, many of us would like some evidence that these arent true Panasonic cells, and don't give me the "I know what I'm talking about" line, either give evidence or back off the point, you don't have to retract it, just back away from it, its that simple.

According to Orbtronics website

Product ID : IMR-CGR18650CH-TOP Manufacturer: Panasonic-Orbtronic

Bare cell: made by Panasonic-Made in Japan

Point being, the cell came from Panasonic, the wrapper came from Orbtronic, how is this any different from AW?

Sigh, people - I know that batteries for our PVs are a complicated issue, but I grow tired of arguing in the same kind of threads over and over again. I have been trying to help people in various forums making informed decisions about safe and good cells to use in different usage scenarios, but it never sticks.

There are a couple things people should learn about the batteries we use, preferably prior to buying:
- If you don't want to experiment, just buy the batteries your mod maker wants you to use. Yes, they are expensive. Live with it.
- Manufacturers and vendors lie. It's called marketing or sales or ignorance.
- The batteries we use are high tech products, they are designed for specific usage scenarios, and they are inherently dangerous. I think that is the reason why the big manufacturers don't sell them to end users. You can't buy a Panasonic cell from Panasonic as a user.
- There are many different types of Lithium Ion cells with very different performance profiles. Most don't fit for vaping.
- There are ways to save money that just don't make sense. You can disassemble battery packs from power tools, play ebay-lottery or buy from some unknown dude somewhere on the web. But prepare to pay double. Most likely you'll buy the AW sooner or later anyway.
- We tested a whole bunch of different batteries in the German forum, that's where and when we found the Panasonic CGR 18650CH. Thanks to SabbelMR from here =) The problem I have with this is that people don't read the whole analysis, but instead just read "Panasonic is good" and go ahead and buy the 18650CG - which is a good cell, just not for vaping. It is unprotected ICR - the big BANG type of battery.
- You simply can not judge a battery by the stuff that is printed on it. The very least data you need is a discharge curve at your needed amperage in the data sheet or, better, actually measured. A 4000 mAh battery is likely to be a lot worse than a 2000 mAh AW. Yes, its confusing.
- It's even worse when safety is a concern. There is no way of telling the chemistry of a Lithium-Ion battery without lab equipment or extensive testing.
- Just buy the AW from the well-known sources. Or go with the hybrid cells like the Panasonic CGR18650CH or the Sony US18650V3. It is another type of safe chemistry, but still considered safe enough.

Now for the direct attack.

The CK batteries ARE Panasonic CGR18650CH with an additional sticker (and that's what I said all along). They are good and safe to use. I only brought them up because the discharge diagrams on Battery test-review 18650 summary show the CK labeled Panasonics instead of just Panasonics.

I warned against blindly trusting the "nippel top" Orbtronics which look NOTHING like original Panasonic on that picture on the site. They MAY be, and the vendor tells us that they are, but there is no proof. And I can not find them on the Panasonic catalog site either: Cylindrical Type | Lithium Ion Batteries (For Europe) | Batteries & Energy Products | Panasonic Industrial Devices Europe

You know what? It doesn't look like a duck and it doesn't quack and mother duck doesn't know about it. I am not going to bet my life on its duckiness.

Of course that does not mean that they are fake, just that I wouldn't bet on it.

Please, jkmtwo, show me where I posted misinformation, or kindly leave me be, I am grumpy enough.

 

[Sterno]

now you guys quit arguing there just batts if you dont trust them then dont buy them simple it just means more for me

 

[jkmtwo]

now you guys quit arguing there just batts if you dont trust them then dont buy them simple it just means more for me

Exactlyyyyyyyy!!!!!!!

 

[TennDave]

Well, I can understand the concern (especially with the recent batt explosions in mods- this is serious stuff and not to be taken lightly- we all need a review on battery safety and we all need to use caution w/ any and all batteries). The question is, is a non-protected (and not a safe chemistry) battery being sold as one? It's best to clear this up- not through arguing but through education. Anyway, I have the Panny's and I like them- they perform like the AW, and from what I'm finding out, the cells inside may be the same- I don't know about the nipple top orbtronics...mine don't have a nipple. Anyway, I think there is discussion here and some confusion about which batteries folks might be "arguing about." Yes, the Panny IMR's are fine- the AW IMR's are fine (and recommended). We are not sure yet if the Orbitronics are really the same Panny batts w/ a nipple or not (although they are claimed to be). If someone finds out for sure (has info to back this all up), then please post (or post a link) and let us all know.

 

[jkmtwo]

At some point one would either have to trust the sellers or not, if Orbtronic says they are where is the reason to doubt what they are saying? I'm all for being cautious, but why not be cautious with the bats you get from CK, or AW? At the end of the day an American company is selling a product, and you either believe their claims or you don't. One could buy one of the nipple top bats and take the wrapper off and see, but who's to say that wouldn't be faked at some point we fall in to ludicracy with no valid reasoning to be so.

I still would like some info on what the basis for doubting Orbtronic is, they are a company that I've never had trouble with, others here can echo this, and are very accessible, every time I've asked a question they have gotten back to me very quickly. So wouldnt I be right in assuming that those who cast doubts on them from the sole reason that they don't know them are blowing smoke?

 

[TennDave]

It's a long read, but I've been hanging out here- and the reason I am extra cautious: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...288409-colorado-man-sues-after-explosion.html I'm not saying that Orbtronic is not telling the truth...

 

[bushmaster]

It's a long read, but I've been hanging out here- and the reason I am extra cautious: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...288409-colorado-man-sues-after-explosion.html I'm not saying that Orbtronic is not telling the truth...

Sooooooo...., you think that Orbtronic may be repackaging RadioShack batteries and selling them under their name, huh? How the plot does thicken.
The conspiracy theories run rampant in REOland.

 

[jkmtwo]

It's a long read, but I've been hanging out here- and the reason I am extra cautious: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...288409-colorado-man-sues-after-explosion.html I'm not saying that Orbtronic is not telling the truth...

I agree 100% with being extra cautious, I won't touch a second hand battery, with the exception of those that i know, mainly because I don't want to inherit someone else's carelessness. But at some point we have to trust a proven retailer until we are given reason not to. Like I said earlier, we all THINK the AW batts are as advertized, there is even word that they use Panasonic cells. So then I would say what makes the AW bats, specifically the IMR 18650 2000 mah, any different from the battery that Orbtronic sells?

 

[SabbelMR]

Just wanted to let you guys know that we are working on new piles of battery discharge curves (different sizes) at our German vapers' forum. Check it out (no registration required für viewing):

"dampfertreff.de" pile of battery graphs by sk4477


Its not many batteries yet, but more will be added regularly.

 

[clyde2801]

I used to manage a small company collecting NSF checks, and our largest customer was the largest convenience store chain in my state. The guy running that was the founder's son, and he had an eye for detail that rivaled Steve Jobs. While discussing regular matters over the telephone, the subject of 'who has the best gas' came up. His reply was that every company in our state got their gas from the same two or three sources, and people preferred his gas over his competitors because he was 'fanatical' about delivery and storage, i.e., ensuring that contaminants didn't get into his supply from poorly maintained tanker trucks or older/ill maintained under ground storage tanks.

I was talking with someone a few months back (I THINK it was Brandon with Evolv, but I can't outright swear to it.) when the subject of battery quality came up. His response reminded me of the convenience store chain owner: everyone gets their batteries from the same few factories in Asia, with the difference between the suppliers being their own individual quality control processes. I think he described AW as literally paying a premium, getting to the factory first and almost testing out every battery out individually before purchasing them. It was an aside in another conversation, and wasn't discussed at great detail at the time. (Or who knows, the Alzheimer's in my mother's family may have just gotten to me, and my entire remembrance could be the first sign of senior dementia; but I don't think so.)

Anyway, my point being is that even though two brands of batteries are made by the same manufacturer, it does not necessarily mean they are of the same quality. Brand A may have paid more more money and had better quality controls to ensure they got the picks of the litter, where Brand B may have gotten the runts. I've tried the orb's, and I can't tell any practical difference between them and the AW's. But at the same time, I'll wait for the true electronics and battery geeks to run a bunch of tests and make their pronouncements...usually in charts and graphs that I can't understand!

 

[SabbelMR]

Just wanted to let you guys know that we are working on new piles of battery discharge curves (different sizes) at our German vapers' forum. Check it out (no registration required für viewing):

"dampfertreff.de" pile of battery graphs by sk4477


Its not many batteries yet, but more will be added regularly.

Uhm.. I was just told that non-registered users could not enlarge the graphs in the thread. Sorry for that!

It is fixed now, though.

 

[jkmtwo]

Just to clarify, the discussion is not about 2 different brands of batteries, we are talking about the exact same battery from 2 different retailers, the only apparent difference being the label applied by the retailer.

I used to manage a small company collecting NSF checks, and our largest customer was the largest convenience store chain in my state. The guy running that was the founder's son, and he had an eye for detail that rivaled Steve Jobs. While discussing regular matters over the telephone, the subject of 'who has the best gas' came up. His reply was that every company in our state got their gas from the same two or three sources, and people preferred his gas over his competitors because he was 'fanatical' about delivery and storage, i.e., ensuring that contaminants didn't get into his supply from poorly maintained tanker trucks or older/ill maintained under ground storage tanks.

I was talking with someone a few months back (I THINK it was Brandon with Evolv, but I can't outright swear to it.) when the subject of battery quality came up. His response reminded me of the convenience store chain owner: everyone gets their batteries from the same few factories in Asia, with the difference between the suppliers being their own individual quality control processes. I think he described AW as literally paying a premium, getting to the factory first and almost testing out every battery out individually before purchasing them. It was an aside in another conversation, and wasn't discussed at great detail at the time. (Or who knows, the Alzheimer's in my mother's family may have just gotten to me, and my entire remembrance could be the first sign of senior dementia; but I don't think so.)

Anyway, my point being is that even though two brands of batteries are made by the same manufacturer, it does not necessarily mean they are of the same quality. Brand A may have paid more more money and had better quality controls to ensure they got the picks of the litter, where Brand B may have gotten the runts. I've tried the orb's, and I can't tell any practical difference between them and the AW's. But at the same time, I'll wait for the true electronics and battery geeks to run a bunch of tests and make their pronouncements...usually in charts and graphs that I can't understand!