Nicotine debate

[Stubby]

@Stubby you can do what ever you would like to do but the opinions expressed are my own personal feelings and no where and in no way tell anyone to do anything like ignore any studies. Freedom of choice is available.

What is being discussed has nothing to do with freedom of choice (though it is an issue with alternatives to smoking), it has to do with what is the truth. You are misinformed about the risk of smokeless tobacco, and are pushing your misinformation on others. That is something I will challenge. People who are misinformed about the risk of ST and push bad information on others are no better then the people who are misinformed about the risk of vaping and misinform people.

You have plenty of company. The great majority of people on this thread incorrectly answered the OP and didn't have a clue as to what the real answer is (smokeless tobacco is not a risk factor for oral cancer). In this case I wouldn't take to much comfort in being in the majority.

 

[SteveS45]

Tell that to all the people I know who either died of oral cancer or had major surgeries to remove parts of their mouth, throat and esophaguses. I will stick with my opinion and you are welcome to have yours but if the if NO Risk how come there is that wonderful surgeon generals warning on these products from BT?

 

[Stubby]

Tell that to all the people I know who either died of oral cancer or had major surgeries to remove parts of their mouth, throat and esophaguses. I will stick with my opinion and you are welcome to have yours but if the if NO Risk how come there is that wonderful surgeon generals warning on these products from BT?

The problem is that the people you claim to have parts removed etc, don't really exist. If you read the actually studies on ST you would know. As I said earlier in the thread, the tobacco control industry have done a very good job of brainwashing people as to the risk of ST, as they are now doing with vaping.

 

[SteveS45]

@Stubby your comment as they do not exist is way offensive and I should wish you join them next time I visit the graves of friends and family members. You should be reported for your statements.

 

[celticluvr]

Smokeless Tobacco is most definitely bad for you and can cause cancer. NO it is not the nicotine in it but is in fact caused by the additives BT places in there. All those chemicals, carcinogens, are not meant for the human body. There are countless people who do, in fact, get oral cancer from these products. You cannot just say that it is all made up... Do you need a tin foil hat?

 

[BackDoc]

Ok, generally speaking I would wager that rotting tobacco(snus,dip chew , whatever) in the mouth is probably not a good idea.......just common sense

 

[Stubby]

@Stubby your comment as they do not exist is way offensive and I should wish you join them next time I visit the graves of friends and family members. You should be reported for your statements.

I really should just leave this alone, but well.... the only people that would be offended by anything I have stated (everything I am saying is common knowledge among those of us who advocate for THR, and all of it has large amounts of well done studies to back it up) are those that have boughten into the lies of the tobacco control industry. That's your choice.

This is a link from the CASAA site that those of you who think you know the facts about ST might want to read

FAQ: Health Effects (tobaccoharmreduction.org)

 

[Bunnykiller]

are there any articles/med reports that state nic ( alone all by its self) causes cancer??

 

[mattiem]

are there any articles/med reports that state nic ( alone all by its self) causes cancer??

No, I don't believe there is since it doesn't

 

[mcclintock]

I don't doubt that smokeless tobacco is less harmful, or that vaping is less harmful. However, from what I read, Babe Ruth used chewing tobacco all day, every day. A guy came on here saying he used snus 24/7, is that even while asleep? And of course many of us vape more than we smoke, and bigger, plus through all kinds of devices with diverse juices. And can we say vaping really produces better results if used for 50 years, as some smokers report doing? So there is a question of if something noticably less harmful can become not enough better. And exactly how much better is it, what are the limits it can be pushed to?

 

[Stubby]

I don't doubt that smokeless tobacco is less harmful, or that vaping is less harmful. However, from what I read, Babe Ruth used chewing tobacco all day, every day. A guy came on here saying he used snus 24/7, is that even while asleep? And of course many of us vape more than we smoke, and bigger, plus through all kinds of devices with diverse juices. And can we say vaping really produces better results if used for 50 years, as some smokers report doing? So there is a question of if something noticably less harmful can become not enough better. And exactly how much better is it, what are the limits it can be pushed to?

I will point this one out to show just how biased people who don't know much about the issue use common myths, though overall your post is one of the more rational in this thread.

First off, Ruth was a heavy drinker and smoker (the worst combination for risk of oral cancer). Besides that, Ruth actually died of a rare type of cancer, contrary to what was originally thought.
What Killed Babe Ruth?

And more recent propaganda
Tobacco Truth: Curt Schillings’ Public Service Announcement Is a Major League Blooper

 

[skoony]

mispost

 

[mcclintock]

I will point this one out to show just how biased people who don't know much about the issue use common myths, though overall your post is one of the more rational in this thread.

First off, Ruth was a heavy drinker and smoker (the worst combination for risk of oral cancer). Besides that, Ruth actually died of a rare type of cancer, contrary to what was originally thought.
What Killed Babe Ruth?

And more recent propaganda
Tobacco Truth: Curt Schillings’ Public Service Announcement Is a Major League Blooper

That's interesting especially since all I know about Babe Ruth and cancer is the result of a recent internet search on smokeless tobacco. The myths are still prevalent. Plus, if you use it 10 times as much as you smoked, "a lot less harmful" isn't really enough information.

My point still stands, there are some very reasonable and important questions that it would be good to have an answer to. Things we might be addressing if the whole future of vaping wasn't in question. It would be good to know what is really good to avoid, vs. right now there's some things that are a "good idea" to avoid but we really don't know exactly and most just ignore such advice (e.g. there's some concern over dry burning coils but most still do).

 

[Burnie]

I keep telling people, but nobody listens, it's not the nicotine that causes cancer, it's saliva that causes all forms of cancer, but only if swallowed in small amounts over a long period of time.

 

[Stubby]

That's interesting especially since all I know about Babe Ruth and cancer is the result of a recent internet search on smokeless tobacco. The myths are still prevalent. Plus, if you use it 10 times as much as you smoked, "a lot less harmful" isn't really enough information.

My point still stands, there are some very reasonable and important questions that it would be good to have an answer to. Things we might be addressing if the whole future of vaping wasn't in question. It would be good to know what is really good to avoid, vs. right now there's some things that are a "good idea" to avoid but we really don't know exactly and most just ignore such advice (e.g. there's some concern over dry burning coils but most still do).

Point taken (though a bit delayed. I've been busy). Something to keep in mind with all of this is that most people, even within the vaping community, don't have a good understanding of just how small a risk tobacco and nicotine products are once we stop inhaling smoke. The best estimates for smokeless tobacco and about a 99% reduction in risk, and even that 1% is largely theoretical.

The common number for vaping is 95% less harmful, but that was from a seriously flawed study. The actual number is far less then that, likely within the 99% range. The point is that in general, we way overestimate the risk.

There are unknowns, much more so with vaping then with ST. At this point they are unknowable. Flavors are the biggest unknown, with nicotine just about a guarantee to be benign.

So you study the issues and make your choices, what more can we do.

 

[Alien Traveler]

The common number for vaping is 95% less harmful, but that was from a seriously flawed study.

There was no study. It's an opinion.

 

[beckdg]

The myths are still prevalent. Plus, if you use it 10 times as much as you smoked, "a lot less harmful" isn't really enough information.

I vape 50mg @ 80 watts.

Now that I'm not smoking, my mouth is no longer riddled with reoccurring sores and it no longer takes me several hours to clear my throat and catch my breath every morning.

I'm no longer on the verge of being bed ridden for the rest of my life at middle age.

"A lot less harmful" has worked very well for me. I'm very grateful for "a lot less harmful".

Knowing exactly how much less harmful isn't going to change my results.



Tapatyped

 

[mcclintock]

I vape 50mg @ 80 watts.

Now that I'm not smoking, my mouth is no longer riddled with reoccurring sores and it no longer takes me several hours to clear my throat and catch my breath every morning.

I'm no longer on the verge of being bed ridden for the rest of my life at middle age.

"A lot less harmful" has worked very well for me. I'm very grateful for "a lot less harmful".

Knowing exactly how much less harmful isn't going to change my results.



Tapatyped

It is true for most of us that someone, somewhere is pushing the boundaries a lot further than we are ourselves .

 

[beckdg]

It is true for most of us that someone, somewhere is pushing the boundaries a lot further than we are ourselves .

Show me that person and I will concede that my statements merit needs watering down as done here.

AFAIK... with nic and power, I AM that person on this forum.

And I purposely vape those flavors with diacetyl, diketones and other nasties because they taste better.

ETA; *I* should be studied.

Tapatyped

 

[Robino1]

We have a whole forum dedicated to ST.

Smokeless tobacco