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PG and VG side effects

Discussion in 'Health, Safety and Vaping' started by JuiceHound, Sep 9, 2012.

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  1. JuiceHound

    JuiceHound Full Member Verified Member

    Sep 6, 2012
    Gainesville, FL, USA
    HI. I’m new to the forum. I’ve been a forum reader for a few months but this is actually my very first post! Sorry for the long post but can’t convey my experience, leaving any of this stuff out! New vapers please note: This is only an account of my frustrations with e-liquid side affects. These health issues may only affect certain people such as myself, and my issues may be caused from me being hypersensitive. So, please don’t let any of my travails cause anyone any undue concern in their wonderful journey into vaping.

    I have found many other posts about VG & PG side effects in the regular user’s forum, but I thought I’d open one up in the new members’ area and dig right in since I can post there for now. I’ve been vaping on and off since April 2012

    I personally feel the materials safety data sheets favor VG as the healthier choice. Some people like myself have experienced side effects, or issues with both bases. I understand that there are a lot of factors involved, especially the quality of ingredients, etc. I’ve had rashes with PG and diarrhea and rashes with VG. To my knowledge, PG and VG are the only two bases available to suspend the other ingredients and produce vapor.

    PG: I started breaking out in a rash, coincidently enough, that moved over my body in the almost exact pattern, etc. as when I tried using the nic patches (same silver dollar-sized rash spot opposite left elbow, etc). At first I thought I would have to give up vaping, thinking the issue was the purified nic or levels of. But after giving it another go with VG and getting a completely different type of rash, I feel it may be a combination of both; a reaction to PG and a reaction to high nic levels that I don’t get with analogs @ a pack-a-day. I’ve also heard that some flavorings contain PG as well. I also get a sore throat with PG fairly often.

    VG: There are other threads that touch base on the digestive problem, so I know I’m not alone. And although I’m only ‘breathing’ in the vapor, I’m fairly certain the vapor comes into contact with the stomach, so hence the connection with glycerin as a laxative/suppository. I found the vape of VG a pretty enjoyable experience and a lot of vapor, however I seem to get heartburn from it. I also noticed that some brands of VG seem to have more ‘funky’ flavors in them, such as a soapy overtone (not surprising since glycerin is used in many soaps!)

    My journey so far looks something like this: Green Smoke, Bull Smoke, Smoke Tip, v2, South Beach Smoke, American e-Liquid Store (VG), Vermont Vapor (VG), Juicy Vapor (VG), Virgin Vapor (VG), Red Oak (VG), ECBlend (VG), v4L (VG), Wicked Vapor (VG).

    I’m currently using an eGo-c Twist 1000mah w/Kanger T2’s (2.4 ohm). I have on order: Vision T3’s, Kanger bottom coils, and Royal Smoker’s CE2 Giantomizers.

    I realize that I need to isolate each brand and test it thoroughly in order to find out which might be causing what. However, I’ve been trying them all, as a sort of ‘taste test’, thinking I need to find flavors I like in order to conduct serious test runs. I also understand that mixing e-cigs with analogs also can add to my nic intake *sighs* So, at this point, I’m a bit confused, but am forging ahead with a VG/PG mixture and see where that leads me. I am absolutely determined to find the holy grail, or whatever! … just something that I can use in any amount without worry!

    I’ve got on order a sampler of Crystal E-liquid (75-PG/25-VG mix). I’m probably going to order a sampler from Halo, as through all the tons of reading I’ve done in the last five months, I’ve read some really, really good things about the quality of their juice. I understand that all of their juices are a PG/VG mix, being top-heavy on the PG. Also, they claim to achieve throat hit at any level of nic.

    It seems Throat Hit Plus is no longer available? …and the jury still seems to be out on: Flash Throat Hit Enhancer, PGA, capcaicin, etc.

    Of course any and all suggestions, opinions, feedback etc. are welcome.

  2. Vapoor eyes er

    Vapoor eyes er ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Sep 13, 2011
    Toronto, Ont.
    Hi JuiceHound, welcome to ECF. So sorry about your issues but gotta admire your tenacity. Vapers that have had allergenic reactions to juice highly recommend Virgin Vapor | Electronic Cigarette Organic e-Liquid | Electronic Cigarettes as they use 100% organic ingredients. Realize with VG there are synthetic and organic products.
    Here is the ECF Virgin Vapor thread. Annette at Virgin Vapor is very accommodating and will customize juices for those with issues. After 5 posts wait 1 hour for the ECF servers to reset and you can post elsewhere here. Realize VV has a large following of those with allergic issues in regards to juice:
    Virgin Vapor
    Here's another forum you may find interesting:
    Health, Safety and E-Smoking
    The Very Best of Luck to You and please keep us updated as your problem is quite common.
  3. Vapoor eyes er

    Vapoor eyes er ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Sep 13, 2011
    Toronto, Ont.
    Kind of a silly question but are you hydrating as vaping is extremely dehydration- add to that more than 4 cups java or caffeine based drink and major problems. I drink at least 1 1/2 liters water per day.
  4. JuiceHound

    JuiceHound Full Member Verified Member

    Sep 6, 2012
    Gainesville, FL, USA
    Hi Vapoor eyes, thank you for welcoming me to the forum and the suggestions! I actually forgot to add that I had already ordered VV's: 3-Pack Absolute and regular samples (edited original post to include that). I'm not quite sure what difference, if any, that the alcohol makes? I kind of past over those as the tastes, I found, were okay. While I love blueberry, chocolate, and vanilla vapes, I am also a vapor who requires good, staple tobacco flavors, which unfortunately VV doesn't seem to carry? I’m going to load up my clearomizers with the VV again and give it a few days and see how that goes.

    I will read up on those two threads you mentioned, when I have time. There’s a lot of information in there! As far as the hydration goes, yeah I’m guilty of drinking a lot of coffee and a lot of iced tea, but not a whole lot of just plain water, so I’ll have to work on that. I realize PG can pull moisture.

    Thanks again, I really appreciate the info and I’ll update the this thread as my journey goes. …I wonder if a fair number of threads become documented accounts of vapers’ journeys?
  5. bassmike12

    bassmike12 New Member

    Sep 9, 2012
    lakeland fl.
    Dear Juicehound, I feel for you. I,ve been vapeing over a year now and love it. I also mix mine at a 50 50 ratio PG/VG. ur rite, the straight VG gives way to a little heartburn for me also. I have not had a single analog since November of 2011. I feel tons better than i used to. I hope u can resolve this issue soon. Sorry i cant help u. GOOD LUCK! AND STAY HEALTHY.
  6. Vapoor eyes er

    Vapoor eyes er ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Sep 13, 2011
    Toronto, Ont.
    Some heavy VG juices and flavors have to be thinned so rather than using PG they choose alcohol. Distilled water can also be used but alcohol is better. It also enhances TH and lung hit...PG enhances TH and lung hit so they're trying to replicate the best vaping experience possible without PG.
    I LOVE my tobaccos also. Like I said Annette will customize flavors...besides it being a business I really believe they do their utmost to please/ help customers out. VERY highly regarded vendor with a HUGE and loyal following...check the link below :D
    Virgin Vapor Custom Flavor | Virgin Vapor | Electronic Cigarette Organic e-Liquid | Electronic Cigarettes
    VG is hydroscopic just like PG.
    Long story short...when I first began vaping I knew all about dehydration but wanted to "test" the theory..10+ cups java per day + Coca Cola and 1 glass water per day- within a few days all sorts of issues and after 1 week I had enough and starting hydrating- within 2 days all was normal. Had a convert that did the same and doubted the "dehydration" theory. I looked at his fingernails and pointed out the vertical lines/ rails and told him it was from dehydration...he began hydrating and within 2-3 weeks the "rails" were gone. Besides the noticeable effects dehydration is very stressful on some organs.
    Yes and it's an excellent idea because others with the same issues will find the answer here and can also offer ideas and more importantly encouragement. Sometimes vapers will come here with issues and never return with their resolution and basically the thread becomes a dead end....and believe me there is almost always a remedy.
    If I find anything else I will post here.
    Wishing You the Best.
  7. JuiceHound

    JuiceHound Full Member Verified Member

    Sep 6, 2012
    Gainesville, FL, USA
    bassmike12, thank you so much for sharing your experience and the encouragement, it means a lot to me! Every person's story I hear about where they are off-the-ground and up-and-running with software and hardware that works for them, it drives me to not give up. Again, thank you and wishing you the best!
  8. Krystaal Rain

    Krystaal Rain Full Member

    Jul 23, 2012
    Los Angeles
    VG is much softer on my throat but doesnt carry flavor as well. I noticed a high PG content makes my throat sore
  9. JuiceHound

    JuiceHound Full Member Verified Member

    Sep 6, 2012
    Gainesville, FL, USA
    Ahh, I see… that makes sense. As an aside, I just tried the VV Organic Chocolate Cake and do notice a bit of the alcohol bite and feel in my system. It may be that I end up preferring the non-alcohol ones from her.

    I appreciate the tip that VV makes custom flavors and works with the customer. As many of us know I’m sure, that those kinds of things go a long way in customer loyalty for many.

    That’s some very useful information on the hydration tests that you’ve conducted. That will save me tons of grief, trial and error, and curiosity about that aspect. So, its copious amounts of water for this vaper moving forward ;)

    I agree that the encouragement is very important as well as the updates to each ‘story’ or topic. I’ll be sure to post back any updates I have as things progress.

    Thank you so much again, for the welcome, the information, and the encouragement. Wishing You the Best!
  10. Krystaal Rain

    Krystaal Rain Full Member

    Jul 23, 2012
    Los Angeles
    PG gives me a head ache and a sore throat. I usually order juice with 70% VG and double the flavor and it works great in my phiniac tank
  11. JuiceHound

    JuiceHound Full Member Verified Member

    Sep 6, 2012
    Gainesville, FL, USA
    Hi Krystaal Rain, I've noticed that too. For me, it seems to reinforce that those characteristics are shared by many vapers. Thanks for the reply!
  12. JuiceHound

    JuiceHound Full Member Verified Member

    Sep 6, 2012
    Gainesville, FL, USA
    Ah, i see... I'll keep that in mind as I try new options. I'll also take a look at the phiniac as I have not heard of that one yet.
  13. SuziesMom

    SuziesMom Super Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Oct 28, 2010
    You might be better off trying to DIY a little until you really figure out what you like. It's almost easier than trying to find that holy grail juice, and you'll save money in the long run.

    I can't really do PG or too much alcohol either- and really like a little bit of water in my blend for a little bit of a hotter/dirtier vape.
  14. Bullette the Cowdog

    Bullette the Cowdog Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 5, 2012
    Treasure Coast, FL
    I remember when I first started vaping seriously. You know with only a couple cigs per day & vaping the rest of the time. The first 2-3 days with 100% vg I did have some stomach distress. But it went away as my body got used to it. I still like my 100% vg juices best. Johnson Creek Red Oak line is my preferred juice.
    Vape on.
  15. Ty Johnson
    This message by Ty Johnson has been removed from public view. Deleted by a moderator, Sep 10, 2012, Reason: UnRegistered Supplier.
    Sep 10, 2012
  16. maurice.osborne

    maurice.osborne Full Member

    Oct 16, 2012
    Good day all,

    I'm new to the form, as well as vaping in general. All in all I'm really enjoying the switch from analogs to vapor. I was wondering if anyone else has the same side effect as myself. I feel perfectly fine, with not rashes or sore throats, and vaping mostly 50\50. I picked up a few crystal clear e-juices and loved the flavour, but ended up with really clogged ears and a pretty stuffed up head. Anyone know whether this would more likely be from a higher VG or PG content? The bottle didn't have the ratio on it. It was Cherry cigar, and was pretty tasty other than it made my head feel like it could pop.

    If anyone has any thoughts, that would be appreciated.
  17. Cookster

    Cookster Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 5, 2011
    As far as rashes/itching go, please check all the daily items you use on your body. I started getting a rash/itching a year into vaping and realized I was on PG overload! Everything I was using, from makeup to shampoo, had PG in it. Once I moved away from all of them, the rashes/itching disappeared. I'm using 80/20 PG/VG with absolutely no problems.
  18. JuiceHound

    JuiceHound Full Member Verified Member

    Sep 6, 2012
    Gainesville, FL, USA
    Sorry for the delay here. I know it really helps others when members come back and add more to their personal journeys. Extended family member passed away, and other assorted ‘life’ stuff, but I’ve now got some updates for the JuiceHound Gazette.

    maurice.osborne & Cookster, thank you for contributing to my thread. Maybe some of this long prose below will give you some ideas or feedback, and how it all relates to your specific situations.

    I gave the Virgin Vapor I had on hand another try. For me personally, I found the juice to be very thin and burns ‘hot’ (not in temperature really, but in the way the vapor feels when it’s atomized). I’m guessing that’s the ethyl alcohol (in the Standard Virgin Line varieties which do contain it) used to thin the VG. I found both sample packs to be too ‘hot’ for my tastes, but that’s just my opinion of course. No disrespect to VV, I’ve heard good things about them.

    The Crystal E-liquid had some nice packaging and a couple of decent flavors. However, my experience was that order fulfillment and shipping takes a little longer with these guys. I have to say though, that they were willing to work with me and sent me a couple of 100% PG samples because the ones I got with a PG/VG mix seemed to give me a few side effects (I was blessed into the vaping world as someone with seemingly high sensitivities *sighs*). They seem to have their own versions of the status-quo flavors such as RY4, etc. Their ‘Cammo Tobacco’ seemed to have a spice or additive in it that was chemically smelling and undeterminable. Needless to say, I just kind of gave up on that line.

    Okay, next stop… went for the gusto and delved into Halo e-juice. I found the Tribeca and the Freedom Juice to be so intoxicatingly addictive, that I seriously bought into them. Along the way I ended up trying two of their different sample packs, trying out every one of their non-menthol flavors, but found I seemed to really like the two I mentioned. To me, many, many of the Halo flavors most all seem to have this certain ‘nutty’ undertone in them, except the Freedom Juice. Also to me, the Tribeca has this almost surreal, unnatural taste to it, but it’s fresh, crisp, complex, and highly addictive! Now the Freedom Juice I would rank up there with only a few of the closest matches I’ve ever tasted, that taste like real tobacco. Unfortunately, my enthusiasm was short lived. Apparently there seems to be some sort of ingredient in them that causes a sort of internal allergic reaction in me. What I mean by that is I kept getting cramps and abdominal pains and trouble with my digestive system. I have strong feelings that this was not due to the regular issues I’ve had from straight-up VG. I was really in trouble and was at the point of trying to drink tons of water and Citrucel fiber (which helped) every day, to see if I could adapt to it, to no avail. Peppermint tea became my friend for a while ;) I know the cause was the Halo juice because each time I stopped using it, the issue would clear up but it took days to do so; I even missed a little work because I was in so much pain. It’s too bad because to me those are some awesome flavors!! Oh well, spent wayyyy too much $$ and will have to look into getting verified and I’m sure I’ve got something to offer the right member on that stuff!

    Fast forward a bit. I was EXTREMETLY discouraged after the Halo experience. I just could not be deterred though. I was very, very determined. I have gravitated toward vaping like some kind of calling in life or something. It’s kind of spooky how much I love every aspect about it and embrace it like a serious hobbyist!

    I can’t tell you how much $$, time, research, tests, etc. I’ve spent in the last seven months. I even tried researching what other mediums/suspensions/bases would be suitable besides PG/VG. Looking to see if anyone has made any headway on alternatives but nothing yet it seems. The search just led me to a few patents, etc, but nothing concrete.

    I started to think about e-juice safety and what juices I knew to be the cleanest, safest, and best tasting (overall) juice that I had ever experienced. The one that clearly came to mind was American e-liquid Store. They are the first juice I ever tried DIY’ing, back in March, all 100% VG. Back then I did have a few minor VG side effects from them. I came up with a plan. I then re-investigated by ordering a whole new mess of the same flavors of theirs I still had on hand, only this time, 100% PG, thinking I could do my own mixing and controlling the exact percentages. The jury is still out (and let me find a piece of wood to knock on!), but I *may* have found the holy grail (for me). I found that the 100% PG alone was a bit dry, harsh (sore throat), and not as flavorful. But, by only mixing a tiny bit (say 10-15%) of the VG counterpart to the PG only, it worked perfectly and no side effects yet! They have hands down, the absolute best Green Apple of any of the six or seven that I have tried in the past. Also, their regular ‘Tobacco’ is by far one of those in my top three of all-time favorites in that category and more than satisfies my needs in that department. I cannot say enough great things about American e-liquid Store. Back in April, when I talked to them about the nic level I had selected not being right for me, they actually sent me replacement juice before I even returned the ones I wanted to exchange with!!!! That’s unheard of, isn’t it? (Of course I did return my old juice as promised though). I even found that when revisiting their chocolate and vanilla, that the flavors had improved a great deal since the ones I got in April. Don (the owner?) even has several helpful instructional videos on the site. They even came up with their own tank filler bottle design, which you’d just have to see for yourself how useful those things can be for mixing and filling any cartomizer, clearomizer, or tank. I’ve got syringes, but these bottles have the cap with the needle built-in and can be screwed right on top of their juice bottles!

    On hardware: Over time, after accumulating 16 Kanger T2’s, and using them regularly, I’ve found several design flaws in them, causing them to crack and leak regularly. I did however, go out and buy and ohm meter and was making my own coils with wick and wire for them. I had previously ordered two Vision V3’s but thought they were no good because I had received a dud which apparently did not have the two little side holes punched in it, in the thread cylinder underneath. So I just thought they did not pull air properly. I was mistaken. I loaded up the other of the two V3’s and found some amazing things. They deliver a much more cigarette-like hit, denser and more potent, and with more natural air resistance than the Kanger T2’s. Also, it even withstood the AES Green Apple which normally cracks any clearomizer I put it in. So, out for delivery today in the mail are six 2.4 ohm V3’s and a mini-eGo 400 mAh I’m going to try. These days I order all my hardware exclusively from The Digital Cig. They have the most comprehensive selection of Joye products I’ve seen anywhere. The prices are great, they have a huge selection overall, the customer services is top-notch, and they have these great, fun, & quirky sales and promotions (got monkey?).

    One last thing on hardware: I’ve recently been looking into complimenting my eGo C-twist, by adding back into my repertoire, the cigarette size batteries. They drag more like a real cig, they don’t raise as may eyebrows in public, and with the automatic batteries, they’re hands-free operation. A co-worker showed me a device I have been looking for, for quite some time and it’s just perfect for me. Good old v2 has put back into production a beta version of their ‘Liqui-Max’ baby clearomizers. Let me go on record saying that I was always a Green Smoke guy and not a v2 fan! (kinda like if you’re a Beatles or Rolling Stones person! ;). Finally a clearomizer that is the exact diameter of the cigarette-size battery! I had tried the Kanger KR-510’s but they cracked, leaked, and were top-bulky. I just ordered 18 of the Liqui-Max’s but v2 won’t start re-shipping those until 11/19. The co-worker gave me a new one he had, so I could go ahead and try it out. It was a match made in heaven. They’re good for about 30 refills they say. If I can get the coil part to disassemble from it, I could even possibly re-coil/re-wick them. This discovery had an unexpected benefit: I was able to put those old Bull Smoke batteries and Bull Pen charger to some good service as the thread is the same as v2.

    So, I’m scheduling a new no-analog date for this Monday and am super excited to have the feeling that maybe, just maybe, once-and-for-all, I might have found my holy grail, or ‘what works for me’. I’m finding it hard to sneak any analogs in at this point… wayyy too addicted to vaping again! :)

    I’ll post back into my ongoing JuiceHound Gazette as the story unfolds.

  19. Caridwen

    Caridwen ECF Moderator Senior Moderator Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Jan 15, 2011
    Moved to Health, Safety and e-smoking.
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