So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

Discussion in 'Nicotine' started by trog100, Oct 24, 2009.

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  1. trog100

    trog100 Moved On ECF Veteran

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    nicotine quitters and nicotine swappers.. which camp are you in...

    i have been reading stuff lately that is suggesting e cigs are pretty useless nicotine delivery systems.. they are nothing much more than placebos..

    does this make me happy.. no it bloody dosnt.. is it true.. i hope not..

    have i been conning myself for the last eighteen months.. if so does this make me feel happy.. nope it just makes me feel pretty stupid.. i dont like being sold lies even when its me thats doing the selling..

    nicotine is a mind altering drug.. i take the stuff with the deliberate intentions of altering my mind i think it makes me a better person..

    it makes me kinder and more tolerant to others.. it calms me down when i need calling down.. it makes me concentrate and think better when i need to do this..

    sooo are e cigs giving me the drug i want or are they not... assuming the liquid is really what it says it is and 36 mg really does contain 36 mg or thereabouts of the drug i need.. i know its going into my body in reasonable quantities.. But..

    is it getting to the parts it needs to.. and if it isnt what the hell is happening to it..

    it seems nicotine quitters are happy with the suggestions e cigs dont work only as placebos.. they are happy to be fooled or to fool themselves into whatever desired result they want to achieve.. it seems some people are pretty easy to fool.. are they happy with this.. it seems so..

    am i... jeesh no i aint.. big style i aint.. he he he

    just to finish off.. i dont want a "high" or a "buzz" from the mind altering drug we call nicotine.. what i want is a little more basic.. i want something that improves my thinking ability and tempers the less pleasant parts of my personality.. in short i want (need) something that make me a better more tolerant clear thinking person..

    trog
     
  2. Tetsab

    Tetsab Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    Trog, I'm firmly of the opinion that we ARE getting SOME nicotine from our e-liquid but it is pretty annoying that it doesn't seem to be as much as we originally thought it might be as newbies.

    When I first started vaping just under a year ago, I carefully worked out that as I had formerly been smoking around 30 x 0.8mg cigarettes a day and found I was using around 1.5ml of liquid a day I should be perfectly happy using 18mg strength.

    However, further experience after the novelty had worn off a bit did lead to my discovering that I found the higher strengths much more satisfying and using 18mg exclusively led to attempts to vape myself silly to get my nicotine gratification, constantly puffing away on it. Using higher strength meant that I would take a more reasonable number of puffs then put the e-cig down, quite happy. These days I vary quite a bit and may well use 18, 24 and 36mg liquid in the course of a single day.

    While I'm not one of those fortunates who gets a true 'hit' from nicotine (in fact I rather envy those who claim they do) I can most definitely tell the difference between the lower and higher strengths, as above. And overdoing the 36mg WILL make me giddy!

    I tend to agree with the notion that the absorption speed is less rapid - you have to give it a minute or two rather than expecting an effect in just a few seconds. The blood plasma concentration 'spike' we perceive as nicotine satisfaction will be a little slower in arriving.

    In addition, without the toxic cocktail of compounds you receive from tobacco smoke along with your nicotine you are almost certainly NOT getting the benefit of some of the synergistic effects you would have been accustomed to from smoking. Personally I was very disappointed to learn I'd probably lost the MAOI effect I'd been used to from analogues.

    As for the suggestion that nicotine in isolation is not in fact addictive - not so sure about that one. I tend to the opinion that I am still an addict and depriving me of access to nicotine will have unpleasant results... most particularly for whoever does the depriving!!

    I do wonder if I had inadvertently reduced my nicotine tolerance/addiction in those first few heady weeks of enthusiasm with by first e-cig but over time this has returned more to my personal 'normal'. I never made any bones about it - I had (and have) no ambition to quit nicotine.

    Overall this is a seriously complex issue, and one that is difficult to research without wading through complex medical and biochemical reports but sadly it doesn't seem likely that there IS a simple, easy-to-comprehend answer.

    Whatever the answers may be, it is definitely necessary that we do have confidence that what it SAYS on the bottle is what's IN the bottle so we are able to monitor our own intake to some extent if we choose to do so. On which topic, do you have any insight as to the situation with TW's liquid strengths at present, Trog?
     
  3. frankwt

    frankwt Full Member

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    Sep 11, 2009
    I am with you, as an ultra light cig smoker, I have had to go to the 24mg juice to get anything at all....this makes me doubt the nic level in any juice let alone the e-cig actually delivering it to my senses! Any lab tests? any really reputable dealers selling actual nic juice? I have no idea, but I know you cannot take the word of the manufacturers without actual lab tests on the delivery of xxmg of nic.
     
  4. NightShadow

    NightShadow Senior Member ECF Veteran

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    My wife and I started using ecig's 3 weeks ago. I was able to stop after 25+ years of a 1-2 pack a day habbit the first use of my pv. If is it a trick, it is a darn good one and as long as it works it does not bother me.

    I did all the reading and research etc, and my wife did not. Subsequently we ordered some capella's flavor drops, and she went around happily vaping the zero nic stuff for most of a day withought noticing a difference. Granted she started the day with a nic juice, and ended the day with some also. She was amazed that evening when she discovered it was zero nic! So yes there probably is a placebo effect with zero nic. Is this just replicating the calming act of smoking, probably. It is a ritual like morning coffe, can some switch to caffien free and be ok, yes, do others have trouble with caffien free, yes.

    I for one feel if we can use zero and get the desired effect real or immagined it saves money/health and that is not a bad thing.

    As far as the rest of the scientific questions go, I will leave it to the scientists to reaserch the absortion rates, comparisons to analogs etc. whilst I happily vape away in my flavorfull cloud.

    Closing point, whatever work for you: do it :)
     
  5. trog100

    trog100 Moved On ECF Veteran

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    okay.. is whats in the liquid what it says on the bottle.. i think TW is sincere..

    in fact i know they are.. i have had a puff on their neat 50 odd mg mixing stuff.. i know the nicotine is pharmacy grade stuff.. i know their intentions.. which basically is to make e smoking "respectable" to remove the slightly iffy chinese back street image.. i also know they think to be officially accepted which is the ultimate aim they think the delivery has to be accurately measurable..

    so yes as far as TW are concerned the quoted mg levels can be trusted..

    #####

    just to throw some figure into this.. just rough ones..

    liquid strength has always been based per 1 ml volumes.. just to take 36 mg as an example.. i get thru say 3 ml per day..

    one reasonably strong real cig is say 1 mg.. so 1 ml of 36 mg liquid equates with 36 real cigs.. 3 ml would be 3 x this or over 100 real cigs.. or over 200 super lites..

    okay the figures dont add up.. something isnt quite right..

    so what can we rely on.. we can say i take in the same nicotine via e smoking as i would one hell of lot of real cigarettes.. i think we can assume it aint quite having the same effect on us as the real thing..

    we can also safely assume e vapour nicotine dosnt hit the bloodstream or brain as quickly as real smoke nicotine does.. the speed of the aborption is what gives the high or buzz..

    but i am more concerned with the overall absorption level than i am the speed..

    100 real cigs worth goes in.. what happens to it.. does it reach the parts it needs to reach or dosnt it.. i dont know.. i think it does (enough) but low level blood nicotine level reports if true are making me rethink the whole thing..

    even at a 30% efficiency level i should be still getting the equivalent of 30 real cigs.. i can live with this its well out of placebo land.. but i am still wondering.. he he

    now for the humorous part... in a couple of weeks time when we meet with TW.. i will say go get the packet of Bensons jason just like i have the last couple of times.. the entire packet will be gone before we leave...this is a kind of ritualistic jokey thing with us but its true... he he

    trog
     
  6. NightShadow

    NightShadow Senior Member ECF Veteran

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    There are several threads on absobtion rates, and some numbers posted as an estimate of absobtion/delivery etc, memory is flaky but its was somewhere around 2.5 x which from the replies of smoking levels of analogs to ammount and strength vaped seem to work out so I would say it is at least in the ballpark. ymmv :)

    The general blog thread I mention is here: e-cigarette-forum.com • The place for electronic cigarette reviews, news and chat - DVap

    The specific thread is here: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blogs/dvap/359-getting-mg-right-model.html
     
  7. doots

    doots Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    Location:
    central texas
    Very good points made Trog. I have often thought about the same things.

    I do know that I was a smoker for 40 years and was able to quit the day my first little 510 came in. That's been many months ago.

    I know I'm getting nic just how much is the question we all ask.

    Seems to be enough to keep the cravings away though.

    I'm like at 24mg and 3ml a day to stay happy.. :)))
     
  8. RenaissancePuffer

    RenaissancePuffer Supplier Associate ECF Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2009
    Location:
    New Germany, MN
    What really struck me when I first started was that I was getting a buzz off of Janty High strength liquid (16mg). If the absorbtion rate is as low as they say that it is, and if I only consumed maybe 0.1ml of liquid, it seems to me that was a very small amount of nicotine that produced that effect. I suppose the nicotine is delivered to our bodies differently, but it still strikes me as odd. I never caught a buzz of a cig since I was a young teenager.

    So yes, I think we are getting it, the nicotine that is. The only way an average joe or jane vaper to know if our liquid is the right strength is to build a test kit at home, or send it off to a lab for testing.

    Nicotine alone may not be what it is that you are looking for trog? I'm not sure.
     
  9. Tetsab

    Tetsab Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    Nov 10, 2008
    Location:
    East Sussex, UK
    Oh rats - this thread's started growing too fast for my typing to keep up! Thanks to NightShadow for the links, and now I'll have to try keeping up with Blogs as well as threads... oh nooooo....!!!

    Backing up a little to Trog's comments about TW:

    I'm totally happy that TW are sincere, and have little concern regarding the Platinum range now being produced in UK. But I AM still rather concerned that even so there may be issues with their red label liquids from reading this thread:
    http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/42512-has-anybody-read-totally-wicked.html

    If you weren't aware of it and don't have all afternoon to catch up on it, the crux of it is results being obtained by two separate independent chemist members, one in UK and one US, who have been testing various liquids for nicotine content. In the main their tests showed good correlation between stated content and actual content; Dekang for instance being virtually spot on. There was however one very surprising exception to this - and it was TW red label liquids, some of which were well under stated strength but others being well over.

    This clearly isn't helpful if you are trying to keep control of your nicotine ingestion, and I was hoping that Trog's inside track might provide some insight into the current situation. The subject has been raised over in TW's own forum as well and last I heard Jason was 'onto it'; just hoped you might have something more?
     
  10. TWISTED VICTOR

    TWISTED VICTOR Vaping Master ECF Veteran

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    Very unscientific, sure, but my own experience has convinced me that the ecig is only an alternative, like they say, not a replacement. I enjoy that I am now officially a non-smoker, but I do miss my analogs, sometimes. Over 30 years of smoking the nastiest, harshest tobacco out there and I enjoyed it all. Yes, I still got a "buzz" every morning with the first of the day and anytime I went a longer than normal period without. Ecigs don't provide that. Like my tobacco, it didn't take me long to locate and buy the highest strength nic (75mg) I could find to reproduce the same effect. I found out I could get myself feeling oogy, but that's as far as it went, no "buzz", the feeling of calm, brain stimulus, not even a good bowel movement. I've described to my wife (a lifetime non-smoker) it's kind of like being in a mental desert. Just kind of a constant mood instead of the rewarding uplift, satisfying focus I got after having a smoke. Yes, there's no doubt alot more at play here than just the nic, but atleast I can quench the craving. I just wish I could have a good bowel movement, Ha.
     
  11. olderthandirt

    olderthandirt Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    Damn but I'm missing the smiling faces. Get the avatars back!

    Would be nice to have a truly definitive study to indicate what we actually get from vaping, I can only offer my own anecdotal story.

    Attempted to go from 36mg to 24mg. First 2 days were fine. At the end of 7 days I was not happy with life. After 14 days I realized I wasn't happy due to:
    Loss of energy
    Short term memory lapses (more than usual)
    Anxiety
    General overall , erm, well, just say I felt like ****

    A few hours of 36mg and all was well.

    Psychological or blood nicotine levels? I don't know for sure but I'm leaning towards getting my required nic levels as for getting back to good. I recently added snus to my anti-smoke arsenal and there is NO mistaking the nic delivery from the snus. Rather physical sort of thing don't you know :evil: When using the snus I don't NEED the vape. When not using the snus I'm chain vaping as no other. Point is I'm confident we are getting some nic delivery from our vape. It's not entirely a psychological thang...
     
  12. Vocalek

    Vocalek CASAA Activist ECF Veteran

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    Springfield, VA
    As my kids sometimes tell me, Twisted: TMI

    Anyhow, I was smoking 10 cigarettes a day and chewing about 6-8 pieces of nicotine gum or lozenges when I began using an e-cigarette. I have continued using the gum or lozenges at about the same rate.

    At first, a cartridge was lasting me 2 days -- and it was an NPRO! I noticed that I was having a hard time holding it together. I was starting to become a little anxious and depressed, having some problems with concentration.

    I had to consciously increase how often I used my e-cigarette, because I was not getting the "cravings" to "smoke" the way I did with tobacco cigarettes. Increasing the frequency so that I was going through a cartridge in one day instead of two days made things better. But my mood and cognitions were still a little off, until I bought 24 mg liquid and began refilling the cartridges with that.

    Today, I noticed I was vaping more -- and then realized that I had not used any gum.

    So yes, in combinantion, I am getting the nicotine I require, but it is a trial and error process, tweaked on an "as needed" basis.
     
  13. nycityjeff

    nycityjeff Moved On

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    New York City
    All I can tell you is this. I am NOT one susceptible to placebos. I smoked a pack a day of American Spirit Full Flavor Non-Filtered Cigs and a certified nicotine junkie.

    Now I vape 36b mg liquid, cut slightly with VG for added vapor. I am very satisfied and I can tell by the way my body reacts that I am getting PLENTY of nicotine.

    I'll keep it that simple. I have no urge for an "analog" and I can tell that there is a ton of nicotine in my system.

    End of story.
     
  14. deewal

    deewal Super Member ECF Veteran

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    There is definetly something missing from the Nicotine we use in E-Cigs and the Nicotine we get from analogues.
    The "relax" factor is there but the "concentration" factor is not.
    I Enjoyed a Cigarette. I don't enjoy Vaping. It is something i do to keep my Nicotine Level up and to stop me from smoking an analogue.
     
  15. need_2quit

    need_2quit Super Member ECF Veteran

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    usa
    never had a buzz from nic juice, but i do need higher nic to get a satisfying drag occasionally, like in the morning.

    for many of us, once we get over the need for nicotine, we get it down to zero nic through DIY juice for most of the day and keep nic for as needed.

    I doubt the nic is anywhere near the levels stated in e-juice. The figures are about as reliable as how many puffs per cartridge from the same ppl that package the juice.

    Perhaps we don't need as much nicotine as we think we do, once we have weaned off of analogs? I think it becomes more about flavor and the relaxing part of vaping as opposed to any drug needed. In the long run anyway.
     
  16. sbphotog

    sbphotog Ultra Member ECF Veteran

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    I vape 18 mg and I was a pack a day smoker before I went back to vaping. I quit analogs the minute I started vaping again and I can tell you this, the first few days I DID have some withdrawl, so I know I'm getting less nicotine than my body was accustomed to. But now, my body seems satisfied with about 7-10 pulls every hour.
    I know I'm getting some nicotine, but for me, that's not the point. My addiction is more psychologically based. Just the act of smoking keeps me satisfied...I can function without the nicotine as long as I can fool my psyche into thinking I'm still getting it.
     
  17. CHUCKLEHEAD

    CHUCKLEHEAD Ultra Member ECF Veteran

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    Well according to FOX NEWS!!! Its just a oral fixation!!!!!! lmao>>>>>> vaping 36mg in the mourning to get my fix !!!! the 24mg rest of the day i'm fine!!!!! and i was a 2 packer camels
     
  18. boxhead

    boxhead Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    i think we are victims of something in our brains that lets us get addicted to things anyway...crack ******* makes the human body react to its presence in the body, in what has to be near impossible time and didn`t BT add some stuff to the tube of death to get it to hit faster and survive the burning process to hit in the body "better" ? has anyone tried stealth e-liquid? and did you have any change in how much/often you vaped?
     
  19. YoMike

    YoMike Senior Member ECF Veteran

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  20. telsie

    telsie Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    I'd calculated my analogs as providing me with 16mg of nicotine per day (40 Marlboro Ultra Lights that are presumably .4mg each), yet I still went through withdrawal when I quit, despite using an 18mg e-liquid. Somewhere around the 5th day, I added a couple drops of 24mg to my cart and it made a world of difference. There was no head rush or buzz or anything, but I felt physically better and my head felt clearer. After 5 days, I didn't see any point in upping to 24mg, but I did start adding a few drops of it here and there and have done well ever since.

    I guess we really don't know how accurate tobacco and e-liquid nicotine numbers are since it's somewhat dependent on the way we use the products. But when switching from smoking to vaping, I required a higher mg than I would've expected. I've found the act of vaping alone to be incredibly helpful for me in terms of replacing smoking, so there's certainly something to be said for the psychological aspect of hand-to-mouth and inhaling/exhaling vapor. When it comes to the actual nicotine, though, I'm inclined to think we don't absorb as much from vaping e-liquid as from smoking analogs.

    Another possibility is that we absorb nicotine just as well from vaping, but that it's less effective when not combined with all the other chemicals found in analogs.
     
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