So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine
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one question that does seem to have been missed.. i did kind of wonder about it.. if i take in the equivalent of more than 100 real cigs worth of nicotine every day and it dosnt end up in my bloodstream..
where does it end up... i am now reading extra high levels in the urine for patch and gum users.. is this where our missing %75 is going.. down the loo.. he he
trog
where does it end up... i am now reading extra high levels in the urine for patch and gum users.. is this where our missing %75 is going.. down the loo.. he he
trog
I could have told you that one... I smoked (Tobacco) while on the patch and I know others who did as well... I even had tobacco less cigarettes (They were herbal smokes) when I started the patch so it wasn't the hand to mouth that was missing, nicotine, or even smoke that was missing.
Interesting stuff. Hopefully I can add something to the discussion with my 2 cents.
I did want to make clear that it's not just an issue for people who need large doses of nicotine. In my long career of smoking I've always been a fairly moderate user. I used RYO for the last 12 years, but before that it was a pack of day of lights. I went through a can of RYO tobacco (the equivalent of a carton of cigs) in about 3 weeks. That's comes to about half a pack a day, but much stronger tobacco. It's a wash.
I'm using 5-6 grams of standard strength snus a day. That's on the medium/low side. About the same amount of nicotine I was getting with cigs. Perhaps even a bit less, but mostly a wash. Amazing how when a nicotine set point is reached it never really changes even after many years. I think isande nailed the feeling I had with e-cigs. Something I vaguely felt in the background but could never put my finger on. I just felt an ill at ease with what I was getting, no real feeling of satisfaction. Of course snus was an instant hit. Ahhhh, now that's more like it.
I'm beginning to think this has a lot to do with those of us who are addicted to nicotine as opposed to smoking. It appears there may be some differences. An interesting observation I've made is that on the e-cig forums a common subject is cutting down or getting off nicotine. Many threads with people claiming to cut from 18 mg to 12 mg and planning to get down to 6 mg, and on and on. There appears to be a strong desire among many (but certainly not all) to get off nicotine.
I've never heard that kind of talk on snus forums. It's just not part of the mindset. Snus users tend to find their set point for snus and stay there indefinitely. Also no talk of hand to mouth oral fixation. I've never heard of it being an issue. With a good source of nicotine it mostly falls away for most people.
Definitely issues here that need to be explored.
I did want to make clear that it's not just an issue for people who need large doses of nicotine. In my long career of smoking I've always been a fairly moderate user. I used RYO for the last 12 years, but before that it was a pack of day of lights. I went through a can of RYO tobacco (the equivalent of a carton of cigs) in about 3 weeks. That's comes to about half a pack a day, but much stronger tobacco. It's a wash.
I'm using 5-6 grams of standard strength snus a day. That's on the medium/low side. About the same amount of nicotine I was getting with cigs. Perhaps even a bit less, but mostly a wash. Amazing how when a nicotine set point is reached it never really changes even after many years. I think isande nailed the feeling I had with e-cigs. Something I vaguely felt in the background but could never put my finger on. I just felt an ill at ease with what I was getting, no real feeling of satisfaction. Of course snus was an instant hit. Ahhhh, now that's more like it.
I'm beginning to think this has a lot to do with those of us who are addicted to nicotine as opposed to smoking. It appears there may be some differences. An interesting observation I've made is that on the e-cig forums a common subject is cutting down or getting off nicotine. Many threads with people claiming to cut from 18 mg to 12 mg and planning to get down to 6 mg, and on and on. There appears to be a strong desire among many (but certainly not all) to get off nicotine.
I've never heard that kind of talk on snus forums. It's just not part of the mindset. Snus users tend to find their set point for snus and stay there indefinitely. Also no talk of hand to mouth oral fixation. I've never heard of it being an issue. With a good source of nicotine it mostly falls away for most people.
Definitely issues here that need to be explored.
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That's been my feeling. I have no idea whether the MAOIs in tobacco are of high enough dosage to act as anti-depressants, but I do know that I've never had the usual anger-management issues associated with nicotine/tobacco withdrawal. Instead, I develop full-blown major depression. Hopelessness, lack of motivation, lack of appetite, poor concentration, etc. Nicotine alone helps but still leaves me in a very bad place, even after months without tobacco of any kind.
Bupropion (at the 450mg/day dose in Wellbutrin, not the lower dose in Zyban) was BY FAR the most effective non-tobacco method I've used to attempt to quit smoking. Much, much better than patches, gum, Xanax or even vaping 48mg ad libitum.
--K
It makes sense.... If you look at the Nicotine inhaler studies the data was 0.77 cessation OTC (No formal treatment- just given access to the inhaler) vs formal Tx (They add Zyban to the treatment plus moral support of a health care provider) and you get slightly over 3%...
The hand mouth behavior is quite real.... for some people just replacing that is enough.
There is also a social aspect... Especially with how hard the Anti-Smoking groups have hit non-smokers... run through the smoking areas, if they exist, of places of employment and ask around.... The smokers tend to stick together.
The herbal cigarettes (Herbal cigs predate E-Cigs they became real popular in the mid 90's) were developed to addressed the above 2 ... in theory it + the patch should be 100% effective if it were only the behavioral aspects + Nicotine.
The hand mouth behavior is quite real.... for some people just replacing that is enough.
There is also a social aspect... Especially with how hard the Anti-Smoking groups have hit non-smokers... run through the smoking areas, if they exist, of places of employment and ask around.... The smokers tend to stick together.
The herbal cigarettes (Herbal cigs predate E-Cigs they became real popular in the mid 90's) were developed to addressed the above 2 ... in theory it + the patch should be 100% effective if it were only the behavioral aspects + Nicotine.
just my theory on this one but i think "habits" are part of the evolutionary survival process.. i dont mean chemical habits simply the desire to keep doing the same things...
i think it works like this.. if you can do anything for long enough for it to become a habit its a relatively safe thing to be doing so we are built to keep doing it.. its a simplistic animal survival thing.. its part of how we are..
while we were evolving dieing of cancer in forty years time didnt fit into the equation.. immediate survival was the important bit..
soo we are built to be addicts.. its part of our nature.. hand to mouth is real so is any other thing we do habitually..
but the need for some to alter their mindset with the use of nicotine is also real.. this thread is getting two entirely different things muddled up..
i know i take lots of nicotine into my body what i dont know is what happens to it...
so okay we know some simply miss the hand to mouth bit and need that.. placebos have also been proven to work..
what we still dont seem to know is are we getting it or not.. or more accurately what exactly happens to the excessive quantities of nicotine i take into my body on a daily basis..
high levels in the urine for patch and gum users tend to suggest the body is getting rid of it.. this one is another complication..
i am sure snuss users know exactly why they use it.. there isnt much habitual fun in stuffing a tobacco laden teabag under your upper lip just like there isnt in sticking a hypodermic needle in your veins to get other highly addictive chemicals..
trog
i think it works like this.. if you can do anything for long enough for it to become a habit its a relatively safe thing to be doing so we are built to keep doing it.. its a simplistic animal survival thing.. its part of how we are..
while we were evolving dieing of cancer in forty years time didnt fit into the equation.. immediate survival was the important bit..
soo we are built to be addicts.. its part of our nature.. hand to mouth is real so is any other thing we do habitually..
but the need for some to alter their mindset with the use of nicotine is also real.. this thread is getting two entirely different things muddled up..
i know i take lots of nicotine into my body what i dont know is what happens to it...
so okay we know some simply miss the hand to mouth bit and need that.. placebos have also been proven to work..
what we still dont seem to know is are we getting it or not.. or more accurately what exactly happens to the excessive quantities of nicotine i take into my body on a daily basis..
high levels in the urine for patch and gum users tend to suggest the body is getting rid of it.. this one is another complication..
i am sure snuss users know exactly why they use it.. there isnt much habitual fun in stuffing a tobacco laden teabag under your upper lip just like there isnt in sticking a hypodermic needle in your veins to get other highly addictive chemicals..
trog
My own experience tells me I'm getting nicotine because I'm not going on a murder rampage, or trying to kill the other drivers on the road. That, and I've quit before using swedish snus. You start to get this bizarre sort of nicotine sensitivity awareness on snus because the delivery is a constant stream when you become a chain snuser. You can tell immediately when you got your nic, and when it's time to swap snus portions. When I start getting stabby, I know it's time for more vapor.
Faulty when applied to my smoking as well. I rarely inhaled long or deeply and I made a conscious effort not to block the vent holes in the filter. Years back when I first switched from lights to ultra lights, I definitely took longer/harder drags for a short time while transitioning. Once I adjusted, though, my method of smoking settled back to how it had always been.
I didn't have any anger issues or snap at people either, despite going through a very clear withdrawal period after quitting analogs. I did, however, have ups and downs of anxiety and depression. Anxiety is something I have issues with anyway, so I was expecting that to increase temporarily. What I didn't expect was the depression (I've never had any problems with that).
Three weeks away from analogs and I'm still having days (sometimes half days) where I'm anxious and others when I'm very down, and unmotivated and just seem to be struggling to feel like me. It's not as bad as it was in the first week, so I assume my brain chemistry is gradually evening out. There's clearly more to it than just nicotine, though.
This thread is very intresting, one thing I know is that the additives in analogs are designed for quick delivery of nic to the blood stream also for max asorbsion. After reading this thread I started to think if vaping was a placibo I should be able to quit smoking altogether. I bought a pack of Pall Mall filters full flavor and smoked some and actually experienced no difference than the effect I get from 26mg ejuice. So the question is why are some satisfied by vaping and some are not? Now when I vape I do not do it like it is a cig I take a triple hit I take a hit hold it in take another hit hold that and take a third and exhale. I actually wasn't doing this to asorb more nic rather than my 901 doesn't put out enough vapor on one draw and this method gets me the vapor quanity and throat hit I want. Well for now my ecig is satisfying my needs so maybe I should just leave well enough alone and be happy
That would be describing me to a tee! Some of what has been presented on various threads suggests that those of us with the more pronounced NEED for nicotine are actually self-medicating other underlying issues.
I must be in the third group. I was a three pack a day smoker down to two and without a doubt can easily still do three. Even though the dr thinks I may be bordering on C.O.P.D.
I got the ecig and didn't really know what I was doing. Liked the idea. Didn't know that I should order higher mg. Since I smoked lights and ultra lights, I figured 11 or 16 mg. Plus I am afraid the battery/atomizer will die so use is sparingly. Can't figure out how to fix them. Thought it was supposed to be cheaper than cigs and of course thought I'd be able to vape anywhere.
Tried snuss but can't stand it. Even tried some of the other chews in flavors I thought I might like, couldn't do it. And of course the gum, patch and losenges don't work. Oh yea I tried the melt things too. Along with stuff like cigarest and similar and the natural herbs ect guaranteed to help you stop. By the way they never refund anything. A chiroprator friend said that we needed to put it in Gods hand and asked him to take away my desire to smoke,well that didn't work either. I need to stop before it's too late although it may already be too late.
Now where I get the nic juice only had 11 mg and it seems like I am throwing away my money on it. I am afraid to buy it direct from china because I don't know if it will make it here or not. Then I will have spent money and gotten nothing. I do know that it's the menthol because when I try a pack of non menthol, I start having the shakes from no menthol and get really irritalbe till I get menthol.
I must be getting some nicotine because I smoke less analogs but just can't get to the point where I smoke none. I keep thinking if I could afford to order more supplies at once and extra parts and I don't know what, it would work. But I am starting to think I just don't have the will power to stop even though I want to. The stories of folks who weren't even trying to stop but did made me think it would work for me. I know I would feel much better.
It seems to me the e cig is not designed for chain smokers.
The FDA sure hasn't helped any by holding up all the shipments either.
I got the ecig and didn't really know what I was doing. Liked the idea. Didn't know that I should order higher mg. Since I smoked lights and ultra lights, I figured 11 or 16 mg. Plus I am afraid the battery/atomizer will die so use is sparingly. Can't figure out how to fix them. Thought it was supposed to be cheaper than cigs and of course thought I'd be able to vape anywhere.
Tried snuss but can't stand it. Even tried some of the other chews in flavors I thought I might like, couldn't do it. And of course the gum, patch and losenges don't work. Oh yea I tried the melt things too. Along with stuff like cigarest and similar and the natural herbs ect guaranteed to help you stop. By the way they never refund anything. A chiroprator friend said that we needed to put it in Gods hand and asked him to take away my desire to smoke,well that didn't work either. I need to stop before it's too late although it may already be too late.
Now where I get the nic juice only had 11 mg and it seems like I am throwing away my money on it. I am afraid to buy it direct from china because I don't know if it will make it here or not. Then I will have spent money and gotten nothing. I do know that it's the menthol because when I try a pack of non menthol, I start having the shakes from no menthol and get really irritalbe till I get menthol.
I must be getting some nicotine because I smoke less analogs but just can't get to the point where I smoke none. I keep thinking if I could afford to order more supplies at once and extra parts and I don't know what, it would work. But I am starting to think I just don't have the will power to stop even though I want to. The stories of folks who weren't even trying to stop but did made me think it would work for me. I know I would feel much better.
It seems to me the e cig is not designed for chain smokers.
The FDA sure hasn't helped any by holding up all the shipments either.
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OTD.. you've put your finger on exactly what I've been thinking. The forum member who might best be able to speak intelligently about the various reasons different people smoke, and experience the addiction aspect differently would be Liz (TheLizinator).
Liz made a comment in a post awhile back that was astute... basically saying that the research into tobacco addiction may have taken a wrong turn along the way, and that for some people, tobacco may not be an addition, but rather a treatment for an underlying condition. In other words, tobacco isn't the problem, the condition it mitigates is the problem. I'll see if I can't get her to drop by with a word or two on this.
i think some of us are.. i dont think they are always "illness" issues.. as i have said elsewhere.. my eldest son has suffered all his adult life from severe underlying issues.. like chronic schizophrenia.. he is basically okay but needs chemicals to remain so..
a few days ago i said these exact words to his psychiaterist.. the lunatic sits staring at the wall.. he is happy.. do we leave him there... he made no attempt to answer..
lots of mental health suffers are heavy smokers.. the mind doctors are only too aware that smoking is a self applied part of the drug therapy those under their care end up having to take..
as for me.. i need it (nicotine) simply to tolerate the rest of the world which i consider not entirely sane... he he he
trog
One of those posts are more than likely what I had in mind
So trog, yer sayin' the rest of the world is your underlying issue... we already knew that!
"Properly" diagnosed as clinically depressed about 3 years ago. The rational part of me has known it for far longer. What meds I've tried did nothing other than leave me feeling "Spaced Out to Uranus". Still depressed, just less able to deal with it.
While it remains strictly anecdotal, my experiences with vaping have affirmed that nicotine is the one substance that keeps me sane and functional.
I used to be a 10 a day marlborough light smoker until I decided to quit. I was on gums, lozenges, inhalers and patches (not at the same time). But they did nothing for me and but the end of it when I smoked again I was on 20+ a day. I blame the patches for that, wondering if my body got used to a constant stream of nicoteen.
When I did quit (for 5 years) I'd made the mental decision to do it and just stopped cold (that year I was on a high anyway, lost 85 lbs of weight, and some other stuff. So I think that helped).
When I started again (after my father died) I was on 20+ a day and sometimes roll ups (depending on how close to payday it was!).
Now. My symptoms of not smoking I call my demons. I get into arguements in my head with people. People that aren't even there, and absurd things. I don't get these when vaping apart from one situation when I first got the 510 and I puffed away on a cart and was getting the rage. Puffed away on another, getting madder.
Then I read the labels and noticed I'd vaped a 0% and a "Low" cart.
Which suggests in my case the nicoteen is an active, not placebo, because I thought I WAS getting nicoteen.
Not sure what category that fits into.
When I did quit (for 5 years) I'd made the mental decision to do it and just stopped cold (that year I was on a high anyway, lost 85 lbs of weight, and some other stuff. So I think that helped).
When I started again (after my father died) I was on 20+ a day and sometimes roll ups (depending on how close to payday it was!).
Now. My symptoms of not smoking I call my demons. I get into arguements in my head with people. People that aren't even there, and absurd things. I don't get these when vaping apart from one situation when I first got the 510 and I puffed away on a cart and was getting the rage. Puffed away on another, getting madder.
Then I read the labels and noticed I'd vaped a 0% and a "Low" cart.
Which suggests in my case the nicoteen is an active, not placebo, because I thought I WAS getting nicoteen.
Not sure what category that fits into.
We can probably agree that nicotine is psychoactive and also variably addictive. We can also agree that tobacco MAOI's are psychoactive and also variably addictive.
The psychoactive character of both nicotine and MAOI's should be, IMO, considered beyond debate. Both do work in the brain to alter perception in one way or another.
It's the variably addictive character that makes things interesting.
Imagine a two-dimensional graph:
The x-axis represents a person's predisposition toward nicotine addiction, exclusive of any other factor. At the far left of the axis is "low predisposition", at the middle is "moderate predisposition", and at the far right is "high disposition".
The y-axis represents a person's predisposition toward tobacco MAIO addiction. At The bottom of the axis is "low predisposition", at the middle is "moderate predisposition", and at the top is "high disposition".
We could then define 4 quadrants, clockwise from the lower left.
Quadrant 1: Low nicotine predisposition, low MAOI presdispostion.
Quadrant 2: Low nicotine predisposition, high MAOI predisposition.
Quadrant 3: High nicotine predisposition, high MAIO predisposition.
Quadrant 4: High nicotine predisposition, low MAOI predisposition.
Accepting that each person smokes more or less for nicotine and more or less for MAOI's, how might individuals in each quadrant stop smoking tobacco in a most appropriate and satisfactory manner?
Individuals in quadrant 1 might be expected to do well vaping a low to moderate strength e-liquid as an alternate to smoking.
Individuals in quadrant 4 might be expected to do well will vaping a higher strength e-liquid as an alternate to smoking.
Individuals in quadrant 2 might be expected to have a fair deal of trouble with vaping alone as an alternate to smoking. These individuals might find satisfaction with a low to moderate strength e-liquid supplemented by snus.
Individuals in quadrant 3 might be expected to find vaping wholly unsatisfactory as an alternate to smoking. These individuals might find satisfaction with a higher strength e-liquid supplemented by snus.
It should be noted that since snus contains both nicotine and tobacco MAOI's, some individuals may find that they prefer snus to vaping, and quit vaping or smoking entirely. There appears to be a fair deal of anecdotal evidence for this in the snus community.
The psychoactive character of both nicotine and MAOI's should be, IMO, considered beyond debate. Both do work in the brain to alter perception in one way or another.
It's the variably addictive character that makes things interesting.
Imagine a two-dimensional graph:
The x-axis represents a person's predisposition toward nicotine addiction, exclusive of any other factor. At the far left of the axis is "low predisposition", at the middle is "moderate predisposition", and at the far right is "high disposition".
The y-axis represents a person's predisposition toward tobacco MAIO addiction. At The bottom of the axis is "low predisposition", at the middle is "moderate predisposition", and at the top is "high disposition".
We could then define 4 quadrants, clockwise from the lower left.
Quadrant 1: Low nicotine predisposition, low MAOI presdispostion.
Quadrant 2: Low nicotine predisposition, high MAOI predisposition.
Quadrant 3: High nicotine predisposition, high MAIO predisposition.
Quadrant 4: High nicotine predisposition, low MAOI predisposition.
Accepting that each person smokes more or less for nicotine and more or less for MAOI's, how might individuals in each quadrant stop smoking tobacco in a most appropriate and satisfactory manner?
Individuals in quadrant 1 might be expected to do well vaping a low to moderate strength e-liquid as an alternate to smoking.
Individuals in quadrant 4 might be expected to do well will vaping a higher strength e-liquid as an alternate to smoking.
Individuals in quadrant 2 might be expected to have a fair deal of trouble with vaping alone as an alternate to smoking. These individuals might find satisfaction with a low to moderate strength e-liquid supplemented by snus.
Individuals in quadrant 3 might be expected to find vaping wholly unsatisfactory as an alternate to smoking. These individuals might find satisfaction with a higher strength e-liquid supplemented by snus.
It should be noted that since snus contains both nicotine and tobacco MAOI's, some individuals may find that they prefer snus to vaping, and quit vaping or smoking entirely. There appears to be a fair deal of anecdotal evidence for this in the snus community.
Originally Posted by olderthandirt
That would be describing me to a tee! Some of what has been presented on various threads suggests that those of us with the more pronounced NEED for nicotine are actually self-medicating other underlying issues.
OTD.. you've put your finger on exactly what I've been thinking. The forum member who might best be able to speak intelligently about the various reasons different people smoke, and experience the addiction aspect differently would be Liz (TheLizinator).
Liz made a comment in a post awhile back that was astute... basically saying that the research into tobacco addiction may have taken a wrong turn along the way, and that for some people, tobacco may not be an addition, but rather a treatment for an underlying condition. In other words, tobacco isn't the problem, the condition it mitigates is the problem. I'll see if I can't get her to drop by with a word or two on this.
OTD.. you've put your finger on exactly what I've been thinking. The forum member who might best be able to speak intelligently about the various reasons different people smoke, and experience the addiction aspect differently would be Liz (TheLizinator).
Liz made a comment in a post awhile back that was astute... basically saying that the research into tobacco addiction may have taken a wrong turn along the way, and that for some people, tobacco may not be an addition, but rather a treatment for an underlying condition. In other words, tobacco isn't the problem, the condition it mitigates is the problem. I'll see if I can't get her to drop by with a word or two on this.
Yep-- this is the case....
I am a chain smoker.... I would suggest 5 (Or More) fully charged bats, 2 chargers, and at least 5-10 full carts on hand at all times.
I was a 2.5-3 packs down to most days 1 or less packs.
As far as getting stuff through customs from China-- I just got some through just 2 days ago... There are also US suppliers...
Normally with NRT- The doctor puts you on Zyban or Wellbutrin in addition to replacing the nicotine. You will need a Rx for that though (very easy to obtain BTW)....
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