Subtank RBA builds? show em!

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OhTheAgony

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Hi slm, lol

Good kit. Mandrel's good as i mentioned. Clamp the wire in a vise and pull to strain straight or multi wire. And the new ceramic tweezers I'll have to try. Some I've seen are round rather than flat-faced. PV, tweezers, coiled wire a good Phillips/flat and Ω-meter are indispensible. Forceps, vise crips and miniature clamps as in my pic earlier can make you feel like you have four hands.

TLCP — twisted lead center-post

Is the term I coined to describe the tension-wound adaption of the three-lead twisted center-post micro duals by @MattyB1503 . A really unique concept originally introduced on @super_X_drifter's original microcoil thread…Micro Coils to increase Vapor, flavor & TH | E-Cigarette Forum which inspired my tensioned contact adaptation. The purpose was as with the original t.m.c. to induce adhesion and full oxidation as seen here…


Sorry bout the acronyms, lol. Did mix it up. SLM's another poster.

Good luck. :)


These tweezers have flat faces on all sides, so they're basically square tipped. But you can also use them to unscrew stuck tanks and coil-heads which has come in handy once or twice already.

& gotcha, thanks for the clarification :)

So I made some really nice looking twisted wire with the bench-vice & power drill just now & to my surprise the same ID & same amount of wraps resulted in an almost identical (-0,01ohm) resistance as the one I made from the hand-twisted wire with the coffee-cup.

I did not expect that.

I guess I'll have to find me some 29 or 30 gauge if I'm going to stick with the Kanger RBA to make a coil with a higher resistance & less wraps. But I think I'll hold off for now. The new RTA that's on route to me seems to have much more room so I assume I can get larger coils with more wraps in there than in the Kanger RBA.
 

MacTechVpr

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Guess I have to answer your last point this way — depends on what you want.

Although a very thick wick spaced coil diffusion tank when introduced the Subtank is really a very effective design for efficient vaporization and some pretty healthy clouds. Think it's rated about 30 Watts even as Kanger has more robust batteries for it these days recognizing the cloud frenzy. My tests of the early release of the 1st gen SubT went out to 45W+ with the factory coil (it quickly caked up there). But the bottom line is you don't need those kinds of temperatures to get adequate vaporization in a Subtank even using pure VG. Tanks are a different beast and too much heat can quickly spoil the vape in one. The magic number in practical terms as I see it is a 3.2mmØ coil length. Beyond that keeping symmetry is problematical. So you're confined at that point as to how much airflow or wicking is possible or advantageous. Distorted coils bring overall wind surface temp's up but that doesn't necessarily mean more vapor. My approach to optimizing production is to shoot for maximizing vaporization and using wide open airflow and secondary AFC. A little fast and furious and let's not leave rubber on the track.

Two build alternatives in the 25-28W range (@4.2v) will yield a pretty effective heat flux of ~175-200 mW/mm². These can be pushed substantially further and will run at least 20% more reliably (cooler) than standard winds (which would require wider spacing to begin with)…

28/5/2.778mmØ @ 0.633Ω
28/5/3.0mmØ @ 0.6645Ω

Interestingly you may note the "hotter" of the two winds has a lower mass (and heat capacity). So as you said — less is often more. Of the two, which do I think might be more productive???…The greater surface and less power even if the perceived vape may seem cooler. The greater dia. flow and contact area should ensure more vaporization if power is maintained close to limit. Some folks may do this test and not see this result. There are other factors like density of wicking which may throttle juice flow if too tight or negate good vape potential if too thin. But the power delivery is there and evident in the numbers.


You can hit these power levels with single strand and get a pretty decent vape within size limitations (3.2mmØ), an example…√25/7/7 2.75 @ 0.7995Ω. But if you notice the diff in heat capacity the parallels are lighter so faster ramp and cool down by a factor of ~16%. For me the call's still out on which I prefer. To be honest, I go both routes, thick wire up to 25AWG and thinner wire TLP's. Straight wire's certainly easier than parallels or multi wire. So far tho the liveliness of the low profile and sturdiness of the twisted lead termination in parallels keeps me going back to 'em for the Subtank. It'll mostly live too in 2-post RDA's I'm building like the Hobo (Velocity decks) but at larger gauges for sure.

You've got a good start OTA and really appreciate your feedback. If you follow the trending fat wire agenda let us know how you make out by comparison. I'm starting to see the birth of some disenchantment as some head back towards more efficient winding methods. There's plenty of room for it all. I'm here to foster an understanding of what a repeatable reliable vape is made of. So we have the tools when we need it.

Enjoy the journey. Vape on. :)
 
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MacTechVpr

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I couldn't resist and tried a twisted Ti coil just to get a feel for the differences before I switch to a RTA (I have my eye on the EHPro Bachelor).

I almost forgot to take a pic though, I hope it still shows enough:

25805509663_062afa2580_b.jpg


Twisted 28g titanium, 8 and a bit wraps with a 2,5mm ID, measures in @ 0,35 on my cheap ohm meter and 0,33 on my Evic VT.

I still feel this coil is over the max size for the RBA, I had to make a lot of adjustments to get it to fit without the legs touching the coil itself. The little ohm meter was a great help in keeping an eye on making no falls contact while I was doing that by the way.

I put so much cotton in there that it could barely slide around in the coil this time. It might just be a little too much but I'm just trying things out.

So far I really like it. Vapor production and taste went up significantly at the same temps as I was using the single strand coil. Not sure if it's the twisted coil or the tighter wick though, but I still have coil number 3 in one of my other RBAs so I'll wick it in a similar way and try it out to see how it changes that one's performance in a day or two.

Which version of the RBA do you guys prefer by the way?

I have the Plus and the Plus V2 with the larger juice holes here and I have a hard time to get the Plus V2 wicked so it won't leak. The holes are just too big imo.

The holes in the Plus version are on the small side though, I feel the perfect size would be somewhere in between the two. I might take the dremel out to fix that in a little bit.

Just curious as the above's a nice lookin' build if you've got around to straining Ti on the step-mandrel yet? And what are your impressions?

Good luck. :)
 

OhTheAgony

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Just curious as the above's a nice lookin' build if you've got around to straining Ti on the step-mandrel yet? And what are your impressions?

Good luck. :)

Yeah, I keep trying but it just works so & so. I only tried Kanthal once but that kept shape a lot better.

The Ti remains very springy & coils turn out around 0,2 or 0,3mm or so larger then the size I wrap them to so I don't think they technically qualify as a tension coils.

But they do work more then satisfying so I'm not complaining, & TC is just so awesome imo so I'm just gonna stick with it.

I should look up some threads about ti coils specifically one of these days though, I must admit I haven't looked in to them a whole lot. All these shinny mods & tanks keep distracting me, haha.

My Bachelor should arrive tomorrow by the way, and I just found out I won a Bachelor Nano too here on the forum! So we may have to find a different thread to hang out in soon :)

Sorry, I only have time for a quickie right now but I'll get back to your other post tomorrow!
 
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MacTechVpr

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Yeah, I keep trying but it just works so & so. I only tried Kanthal once but that kept shape a lot better.

The Ti remains very springy & coils turn out around 0,2 or 0,3mm or so larger then the size I wrap them to so I don't think they technically qualify as a tension coils.

But they do work more then satisfying so I'm not complaining, & TC is just so awesome imo so I'm just gonna stick with it.

I should look up some threads about ti coils specifically one of these days though, I must admit I haven't looked in to them a whole lot. All these shinny mods & tanks keep distracting me, haha.

My Bachelor should arrive tomorrow by the way, and I just found out I won a Bachelor Nano too here on the forum! So we may have to find a different thread to hang out in soon :)

Sorry, I only have time for a quickie right now but I'll get back to your other post tomorrow!

Beginner's luck, LOL! Congrats. Haven't studied the mechanics of Ti myself…to the extent I have KA1. Have invested in some competent gear to do that butttt I feel ya OTA, two hands only and budget rules. Do think apart from symmetry diameter variation isn't as nearly critical with Ti regulated. Do believe tho KA1 runs every bit as temperature stable when oxidized. I mean that's exactly why the alloy was conceived a century ago to use in thermally controlled heating elements. Coupled with high-temp Eko, silica or particularly Nextel there is virtually Ø chance of a dry burn in operation. You can take a hot hit but no off-gassing of media. Acretion of juice solids mebe if less likely when wound to be temp stable. I'm doing my best to help folks develop those simple techniques to get KA1 winds reliable. And I believe there is a considerable cost advantage in time and money for the short learning curve. As well for those that might like alternative gear, you're not tied to function factor or any limitations of supply or design (as might be). Something I feel important to consider in the long term. However, I'm a techie and I like the concept. Technology is a double-edged sword however, if you get my meaning.

Good luck. :)
 

Tapa

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Hey guys,

First real post I guess

Stuck to the plain and simple builds for awhile then last few weeks been experimenting. Tried the vertical but it didn't turn out so great so may re visit that when I do some Clapton wire. Anyway did this build yesterday and had to share as it's working amazingly well so far.

Twisted 28G kenthal wrapped around 2mm drill bit and came out at 0.3ohms nice thick vape around 30watts oh and it was 4wraps each coil :D

808290faec3a5bba15a0c6ab81948a37.jpg
9312c9e7c798c59770730403ce792d9e.jpg
d7b85cabdb2ed5e028bb4e9fbcffd18d.jpg


Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
 
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MacTechVpr

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Just curious where you might have picked up that build @Tapa. What's the device and batt you got? Mebe you need to verify your resistance and don't put that on a mech please. By my reconin' you're pushing a respectable 13.4A. I'd be guessin' but regulation failure can happen. Good luck. :)

 

Tapa

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Just curious where you might have picked up that build @Tapa. What's the device and batt you got? Mebe you need to verify your resistance and don't put that on a mech please. By my reconin' you're pushing a respectable 13.4A. I'd be guessin' but regulation failure can happen. Good luck. :)

Hey

The build is similar to a couple builds I've done on my drippers, wanted to try something new with the tank and see what kind of result I could get, the vape so far is awesome and no dry hits or over saturation so looks to be a success thus far.

The tank is a first gen kangertech subtank mini with the new gen rebuild deck and the batt is a Eleaf 50w which I think is rated for max 15amp and has temp protection etc so is usually pretty safe. I tried a 0.1ohm way back on the Eleaf and it must of been to much because it switched itself off and wouldn't restart till I put the micro usb in it kinda like a reset I guess or protection lock, anyway since then tried to build at 0.3ohm and up as that's what it seems comfortable with.

Looking to upgrade my batt soon and maybe get the new avocado 24 coz it's peaked my interest.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
 

OhTheAgony

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Erm, I thought I had posted here yesterday, but I guess I forgot to press 'post reply'...
24462279700_2cc68e3b1d_o.gif


The forum software was nice enough to remember what I had typed though, but I decided to delete it anyway . It was mostly a rant about what a piece of crap the Bachelor I got was anyways, nothing I need to bother you guys with.

But on a positive note; I'll be sticking to the Toptank at least a little while longer if not forever since I can't find another RTA I like enough to try right now.

Forgot to take a pic but I realized I still hadn't tried a simple single coil with a proper wick yet so I made me one of those today. 8 and a bit wraps of 28g Ti with about an 2,8mm ID came in at 0,57 ohm. I think it's the highest resistance I've vaped with since I got the Toptank, lol

The single wire seemed even more springy than the twisted wire though, but the twisted one retained a lot of heat (it kept sizzling for 3 or 4 seconds after I released the fire button) so I'm assuming it uses a lot of power to get up to temp as well. I'm gonna wait until I get some thinner wire before getting back to those.

I'm also considering getting one of those coil jigs to see if I can make more consisted coils that way, but I'll have to look in to how well those work with Ti first.

Anyway, the single one doesn't vape too bad but I'm still waiting for my wick to come to full flavor before I can judge it.

I'm getting a little bored with having to wait a ml or two for flavor every time I put in a new wick by the way. I might have to give rayon a try after all one of these days, but frankly the stuff scares me a little...

Were you talking about using Kanthal in TC mode in post 644 by the way @MacTechVpr , or did I misunderstood?

Nice build by the way @Tapa, love the cloud-pic too :)
 

OhTheAgony

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Just a quick comparison now that my wick is up to taste; the simple single coil works pretty good as well, but I do have to turn up the wattage a bit and temp a lot to get similar results. I'm vaping at a whopping 25 degrees (Celsius) higher then with the twisted coil!

I still got more flavor with the twisted one though.
 
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MacTechVpr

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Hey

The build is similar to a couple builds I've done on my drippers, wanted to try something new with the tank and see what kind of result I could get, the vape so far is awesome and no dry hits or over saturation so looks to be a success thus far.

The tank is a first gen kangertech subtank mini with the new gen rebuild deck and the batt is a Eleaf 50w which I think is rated for max 15amp and has temp protection etc so is usually pretty safe. I tried a 0.1ohm way back on the Eleaf and it must of been to much because it switched itself off and wouldn't restart till I put the micro usb in it kinda like a reset I guess or protection lock, anyway since then tried to build at 0.3ohm and up as that's what it seems comfortable with.

Looking to upgrade my batt soon and maybe get the new avocado 24 coz it's peaked my interest.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Yeah the Mini is an underestimated under-rated device for production (vapor, and so flavor) if built as a density device. It CAN vaporize. All the more the 1st gen full ST even with its more limited single-slot AFC base (and lovely ample RDA). When you increase surface area doubling up on turns, winds or coils…you will get a lot more vapor. You also roughly halve the resistance. So it takes power to drive it and ramp up time as you noted. You just don't need that much heat to vaporize as most peeps think and even distribution is key. So there's a lot of potential there to run cooler. Why I relied on them often for quite a while.

What caught my eye was the stated res for your build which caused me a double-take late night…tryin' to do some quick math in my head, but I see it breaks down for you pretty sweet.

28x1 SS 4/4 @ 2mØ LL=9 = 0.756Ω <<<< Single-strand wind…
28x2 SS 4/4 @ 2mØ LL=9 = 0.3782Ω <<<< One-half the above…

28x2 TP 4/4 @ 2mØ LL=9 = 0.763Ω <<<< Single twisted strand…
28x4 TP 4/4 @ 2mØ LL=9 = 0.3815Ω <<<< One-half again.

These days I prefer a lower mass profile and having ironed out the means to stabilize parallels, prefer that route. I would note they are not ordinary parallels but tensioned microcoils and so uniquely oxidized. You can get a lot of production at relatively low wattage and superb contact area for the mass. They are characteristically cool for the wattage applied. Particularly with efficient ceramic wicking which rarely gets a mention but for the cognecenti here on ECF. Accordingly fast. So far I prefer them for tobacco and very nuanced flavors. Go to fat wire and bigger clouds when flavor detail is not paramount, i.e. less complex flavors. Think there's a point of diminishing returns with multi-wire builds beyond which diffusion not production dominates. You seem to have hit a high mark for the device.

So good job on those twains Tapa. Enjoy the vape and good luck. :)

 
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MacTechVpr

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Erm, I thought I had posted here yesterday, but I guess I forgot to press 'post reply'...
24462279700_2cc68e3b1d_o.gif


The forum software was nice enough to remember what I had typed though, but I decided to delete it anyway . It was mostly a rant about what a piece of crap the Bachelor I got was anyways, nothing I need to bother you guys with.

But on a positive note; I'll be sticking to the Toptank at least a little while longer if not forever since I can't find another RTA I like enough to try right now.

Forgot to take a pic but I realized I still hadn't tried a simple single coil with a proper wick yet so I made me one of those today. 8 and a bit wraps of 28g Ti with about an 2,8mm ID came in at 0,57 ohm. I think it's the highest resistance I've vaped with since I got the Toptank, lol

The single wire seemed even more springy than the twisted wire though, but the twisted one retained a lot of heat (it kept sizzling for 3 or 4 seconds after I released the fire button) so I'm assuming it uses a lot of power to get up to temp as well. I'm gonna wait until I get some thinner wire before getting back to those.

I'm also considering getting one of those coil jigs to see if I can make more consisted coils that way, but I'll have to look in to how well those work with Ti first.

Anyway, the single one doesn't vape too bad but I'm still waiting for my wick to come to full flavor before I can judge it.

I'm getting a little bored with having to wait a ml or two for flavor every time I put in a new wick by the way. I might have to give rayon a try after all one of these days, but frankly the stuff scares me a little...

Were you talking about using Kanthal in TC mode in post 644 by the way @MacTechVpr , or did I misunderstood?

Nice build by the way @Tapa, love the cloud-pic too :)

Nopes. Not KA1 on TC. No workee. No verts on the ST either but Tapa's cross-post is dandy, single or twisted. For your plain Jane, go stick some KA1 wire in your vise, tension it on your step mandrel and in a few sec's you're going to see the wire get "sticky". A few low voltage pulses on that t.m.c. and you'll see what that does to the wire. Refine that to taste as soon as you see how well they stew from 2.5-3.2mm, 18-45W reg on ST's. I am so spoiled. Hope you see why. Month or more and manhandled through a dozen dry burns and re-wicking they'll still look like this…


Difficult to strain non-res wire, agreed. You've already got the best jig with that mandrel short of a pin vise. A "Gizmo" for thicker gauge (or trapping in a vise as you know). I make not much more than 50% favorable on every coiler I've tried. It's either a perfect spaced or contact coil first try. Fallin' short of that sorta like pissin' outside the bowl. Sorry.

My best rec for you is to always PRIME with straight VG. Cotton or synth, it really works for SubT's and everything else. VG will let you see what max vape production looks like for your build on that device. And after, how your juice performs. Vaped some low volts and starting to get jelly wick…dry it out and re-prime with some straight VG. Have at it, new life. Over-dripped, a few short blows into air holes on atty's will help dry out a slogging RDA too, short of pullin' the cap. Good to go. So get the ST started on a few solid fires blowin' down into the RDA and assembled, through the slot/s. You'll be in biz and get your juice from the first pull.

Good luck. :)
 
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OhTheAgony

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Nopes. Not KA1 on TC. No workee. No verts on the ST either but Tapa's cross-post is dandy, single or twisted. For your plain Jane, go stick some KA1 wire in your vise, tension it on your step mandrel and in a few sec's you're going to see the wire get "sticky". A few low voltage pulses on that t.m.c. and you'll see what that does to the wire. Refine that to taste as soon as you see how well they stew from 2.5-3.2mm, 18-45W reg on ST's. I am so spoiled. Hope you see why. Month or more in manhandled through a dozen dry burns and re-wicking they'll still look like this…


Difficult to strain non-res wire, agreed. You've already got the best jig with that mandrel short of a pin vise. A "Gizmo" for thicker gauge (or trapping in a vise as you know). I make not much more than 50% favorable on every coiler I've tried. It's either a perfect spaced or contact coil first try. Fallin' short of that sorta like pissin' outside the bowl. Sorry.

My best rec for you is to always PRIME with straight VG. Cotton or synth, it really works for SubT's and everything else. VG will let you see what max vape production looks like for your build on that device. And after, how your juice performs. Low some low volts and started to go jelly on that wick…dry it out and re-prime. Have at it, new life. Over-dripped, a few short blows into air holes on atty's will help dry out a slogging RDA too, short of pullin' the cap. Good to go. So get the ST started on a few solid fires blowin' down into the RDA and assembled, through the slot/s. You'll be in biz and get your juice from the first pull.

Good luck. :)

lol!

I think I got to read that a few times and let it process for while :shock:

You know I'm pretty stuck on TC though right? ;)
I might humor you if I get bored tomorrow though, I have a couple of spare decks to build on... :evil:

That are a lot of smileys, I think that means it is about bed time over here.

Thanks for the wick-tips, I'll definitely give those a try!

Goodnight Mac
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TheoS

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Gent's it's been a while since my last post. A few updates..I've since then sold my Subox Mini kit, purchased a Cuboid, Geekvapes Avocado, and Stumpy RDA clone. Very happy with the upgrades.

Just something I wanted to share..I've recently stumbled upon the "Scottish Roll" wicking method. It works exceptionally well in the Avocado and the Stumpy...perhaps it could work for the Subtank too...?

 
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OhTheAgony

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Haven't plaid with my Toptank much since I got the Bachelors, but just wanted to show the difference between the size and placement of the juice holes on the Plus RBA and Plus V2 RBA:

Plus V2 on the left, regular Plus on the right:

26707836081_f561def30e_b.jpg


I find the V2 very difficult to wick personally. Besides the huge hole and my relative thin wicks it is also placed rather low in reference to the coil. A regular plus with the hole drilled out another 50% or so would be much easier in use imo.
 
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