Tensioned Micro Coils. The next step.

[MacTechVpr]

OK, I've been doing this for a while with kanthal now (best way to build by far IMHO), and was wondering if anyone's tried this with Stainless steel. I have 250' of 26ga SS316L coming in hopefully soon, and would like to know what to expect. Of course, if no one's tried it, I'll let you guys know

-Kingboomer

Hey Kb, been curious myself to see someone try a strained or formed SS side by side with a t.m.c. Too busy and distracted by all the nonsense going on. But the TC devices are piling up and I'll have to get around to it. Was hoping some accomplished tension crafter can step up. Was showing a proper 3.2mm t.m.c. wicked with Nextel running 40W std pwr mode on a Cuboid today to two juice makers at the Miami WVE; and, they were impressed with the production at that power level and particularly the vapor density. Wish I had more time these days. More vapor more flavor. More of the latter, more juice sales I think. Most of us will pay for the clouds but we'll come back for the taste. Just some thoughts coming out of the B2B show.

Good luck all.

 

[McAnythingReally]

OK, I've been doing this for a while with kanthal now (best way to build by far IMHO), and was wondering if anyone's tried this with Stainless steel. I have 250' of 26ga SS316L coming in hopefully soon, and would like to know what to expect. Of course, if no one's tried it, I'll let you guys know


-Kingboomer

I too have some SS316L on its way to me, and I have been sold on this method with Kanthal so I will definitely attempt some Tensioned coils with some SS and see how it goes, and more specifically, to see how well it plays with TC. I have not used much TC yet, but the inner nerd in me sees more things to play with so I have to give it a try.

 

[MacTechVpr]

I too have some SS316L on its way to me, and I have been sold on this method with Kanthal so I will definitely attempt some Tensioned coils with some SS and see how it goes, and more specifically, to see how well it plays with TC. I have not used much TC yet, but the inner nerd in me sees more things to play with so I have to give it a try.

Well Mc you can't oxidize SS in the same way. You don't get an alumina (ceramic) layer as a result. Believe pulsing it may create artifacts we don't want at lower temp's than Kanthal. But I do think that winding with strain should induce some rigidity and stability in wind geometry whether it's open (spaced) or closed. My read from other's experiments is the contact coil in stainless goes hot. That makes sense. It's a short. Temp correlation in some TC devices may be thrown off based on preprogrammed temp expectations for resistance. It may not be significant and the advantage of stability and uniform distribution could be more advantageous than any temp inaccuracy if minor.

This is the interesting side I'd love to see. How much hotter does a t.m.c. run? And does the resulting uniformity of wetted surface contact offset or at least justify the method. There is possibly an advantage that if surface thermal output is more consistent such coils may run cooler than non-strained coils. All worthy considerations and experiments.

Best of luck Mc.

 

[Kingboomer]

So I've done it, and I'm impressed. I wound up doing this with twisted 26ga SS316L, and it held its form beautifully. I did pulse it enough to make sure it fires evenly (it did), rinsed, fired again to dry, wicked up and am now happily vaping away on it.


-Kingboomer

 

[MacTechVpr]

So I've done it, and I'm impressed. I wound up doing this with twisted 26ga SS316L, and it held its form beautifully. I did pulse it enough to make sure it fires evenly (it did), rinsed, fired again to dry, wicked up and am now happily vaping away on it.


-Kingboomer

Do let us know how it vapes goin' on. Twisted's aren't functionally t.m.c.'s because it's not possible to achieve and to end adhesion within the twain's themselves. I achieve a close approximation in less than a 3rd of them. The characteristic indication of a t.m.c. is that they start to fire end-to-end rather than inside-out. It's harder to get with twisted and I can't speak to how it plays out with stainless. But if the strain's in there, it'll help.

Any observations on how strain affected temperature and temp distribution in operation are helpful. Pic's too!

Good luck KB. Enjoy the vape!

 

[Cucco]

Hi guys. Just wanted to pop in and say 'Howdy!'. I haven't been in here for a while. I need to catch up, and see what fun new stuff you guys are up to. You guys have always been such fun! Me, everything is the same. Still .24 Kanthal, tensioned coils, 6 wraps for .5 ohms. I still love my Gizmo! (pictured below). Oh, and I now have a great build stand. My best friend at home, took a heavy chunk of stainless, machined some 510 threads, and put some feet on it. (pictured below). Nothing like a big chuck of stainless! Love it!


Take care!

 

[MacTechVpr]

Wow! That's some serious wire feed/wind right there. Prolly make some decent chain with that rig. Thought they stopped makin' those? Base…niiice. Pic's I've seen didn't seem to show how sturdy the rig is. Rugged enough to make some pretty fancy multi-wire with the right accessories.

Me one of these days would like to send such a rig vertical with a guide roller above a damped release spool feeding wire just inches to straight up-and-down blank (or rod). Should all just fit within a square foot inc motor. Or, you could just set it on its side. Oh yeah, foot pedal. Few more ideas but gotta run.

Show us some pretty coil will ya?

Good luck.

p.s. West coast is a sunbather's paradise. I like the late afternoon infrared.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Can you get 1.5mm Nextel? maybe you could just double it over, might possibly be even easier to re-wick this way pulling a looped end through with a bit of wire rather than trying to thread an end, plus you can hit your 3mm or 4mm wick size target if so wish.
If it was available over here i would certainly try it out, i have a family member that i have to rebuild for all the time as he's a lazy git, sometimes i won't see him for a couple of weeks or so and his cotton ends up looking like a cats turd from where he ends up leaving his mod in a place that whens he working hes collecting bits of wall plaster and cut wood etc etc
I've been thinking about using ekowool or similar for him so he can just wash his rda+wick, dry burn and start over.

Nextel's nominally 2, 3 +4mm. It's stiff and more easily buckled or choked by bending than Eko. The fibers are very rigid. Really is like a fire hose under pressure. Nah, ya don't wanna bend it. Easiest material to wick, period. Wet the end with juice, compress it between pointer and thumb, clamp it with thin needle-nose tweezers, insert and withdraw the tweeze. Get's you into a coil 2/3's the Ø. But you don't want to compress the wick that much. Most times I just wet it and rotate in with the same twist as the wind. Best for 2mm. This wick saved me first month in tryin' (and failing) to get Eko and silica into micro's. I could not get cotton at all.

I've used all kinds of media. Like t.m.c.'s, I rec RxD for its ease of use for new vapers. It's in most of my working collection for it's power handling and flavor neutrality, especially with complex rich flavorings.

Nextel makes a non-restricted hi-temp silica version comp to high-temp Eko in 2, 3mm with the designation SC-132, SC-116. Maybe available over there from electrical supply sources. Same fiber braid tho not as stiff. Equally linear flow. The ceramics sturdier for its heat resistance. Between the two both good for flavor and power handling. But you can freely torch the ceramic for cleaning and dry burn it to hell and back. It breaks down from having used it in too many devices, over and over. Cleanin' it's just wigglin' it back and forth to dry vape of any accretion. I torch tail ends now and again to make it look uniformly new. You get the idea. It's newb vape 101 simplicity. If you can build to the precise needs of the diameter, it just works.

Too bad you can't even export short sections of the stuff. The fiber's durability tech I think is still important. The stuff's used everywhere including passenger aircraft. Don't know when or if the patent's up.

Don't have the time for complex multi-wire but trying to make the time to look into large Ø, big power builds with Nextel. Think they may be highly productive and lower wattages for faster flow. And yes it is, considerably faster than rayon…once it's up to temp. That's the caveat. Rayon permeates well but lacks the precise capillary directionality of fiber. Despite rayon's very tight fibers they're still larger and not bound tightly together in braid like Nextel which has an approx fiber separation of less than 10 microns. That's tight. But again, there's a few mill-sec lag for ceramic to heat up, just like a bakepan. If you didn't know it tho, you'd think it was cotton with a good build. Bad build, loose build and you'll see the ramp up.

It's exactly to improve vaporization rate that I'm interested in Nextel for thick and multi-wire. You can absolutely limit temp with this wick and the right coil builds in a mech. And it's mechanicals that I love slip. So the search and the research continue.

Good luck.

 

[MacTechVpr]

I want to mention your coil legs and using the bottom post holes again because with the angle your coil is being pulled down towards the deck you are also creating a gap between the wick tail and the end wraps which could if you have a hot spot or hot leg give you a burnt taste, if you used the bottom holes and pulled the coil up slightly so you don't melt your insulator then you should have less of an angle.

Don't know if this was meant for me but it's a good point. You know I'm a big advocate of symmetry. I agree with you that eccentric winds do odd things. I call them a short. They're technically not. But the effect on the vape's still like a loose connection, the burned result, is the same.

A t.m.c. needs to have perfect symmetry of the element. But leads never go hot once oxidized. That's right, I said never. If they do, then you do have a loose connection or a big break (gap) in the symmetry somewhere. If the latter, you never had a t.m.c. as no uniform oxidation.

For me not being concerned about low neg leads has been a boon. As I like to go high with builds, use center post screws, and coil bottoms set high relative to airflow and often outboard as well. This I've found works best for production. Top airflow for diffusion. It's great to be able to rework wind position to get the personal best balance and not have to worry about lead length.

Too, it's really a blessing for new vapers. Why I've spent so much time on this. You have to see it, in the long term. The savings in time in our lives from fiddling with our stuff is priceless. Just like the good vape when it just works.

Leaves us the time to work out the best wicking.

Good luck.

 

[SLIPPY_EEL]

Don't know if this was meant for me but it's a good point. You know I'm a big advocate of symmetry. I agree with you that eccentric winds do odd things. I call them a short. They're technically not. But the effect on the vape's still like a loose connection, the burned result, is the same.

A t.m.c. needs to have perfect symmetry of the element. But leads never go hot once oxidized. That's right, I said never. If they do, then you do have a loose connection or a big break (gap) in the symmetry somewhere. If the latter, you never had a t.m.c. as no uniform oxidation.

For me not being concerned about low neg leads has been a boon. As I like to go high with builds, use center post screws, and coil bottoms set high relative to airflow and often outboard as well. This I've found works best for production. Top airflow for diffusion. It's great to be able to rework wind position to get the personal best balance and not have to worry about lead length.

Too, it's really a blessing for new vapers. Why I've spent so much time on this. You have to see it, in the long term. The savings in time in our lives from fiddling with our stuff is priceless. Just like the good vape when it just works.

Leaves us the time to work out the best wicking.

Good luck.

no! It wasn't for you Mac, it was ment to be for our friend Justadude.
And yes that's right what you said for the reason why i mentioned the gap between the longer leg and the wick contact.
The problem with have with helping someone out in this area is that there is a whole list of things that the problem could be misconstrued as, sometimes fixing one issue may raise another. Hot spots and too high a mg juice are overlooked i think But as long as we're helping i'm sure we can fix it in the end.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Yep @SLIPPY_EEL, and why I think what you do is a fine art. As I suggested, the physics are more intricate than they might appear as you go complex and increase power so the basics become more important. I've built a lot of coils. But the mechanics, meaning not just the electrical principles but the physical method, becomes more demanding with mixed wire. And so does explaining why is also more challenging. I took the simple road as it's easier to explain a hot spot with the straightforward mechanics of single-wire. I'm certainly no expert on multi-wire. But the basics are readily adaptable to some things like parallels and dual-wire of a given gauge.

One of the most important personal finds the 1st year I vaped, at a time when most kept leads short to lower res, was how insensitive t.m.c.'s are to neg post long leads. This seemed to run counter to my concerns about symmetry. Almost blew me out of Protank research because I was able to see how much better the vape got with the increased airflow of outboard builds. A few were doing outboards on ECF and elsewhere and I had to confirm how the tight stable tensioned oxidized build would do with more air. That's when I really began to appreciate the performance advantage of strain in the build.

Now I guess I should have figured that out sooner as I built hundreds of these things for product tests, workshops, vendors, shows, etc.…you see there's a ~2mm diff in lead length in a typical clearo (the length of the pos pin barrel). But I'd made a decision early on to average the res target to keep it easy for beginners and simply wasn't considering it. Funny how we get stuck with an idea in our head. It keeps us from thinking.

That's about when in the Spring '14 that I began the push for considering strain on supe's micro thread introducing among others this little gem…

So tension winding moved beyond hot spot mitigation to a genuine effort to research stabilizing higher power. And I talked about how well 1.8mm t.m.c.'s produced in dripper's right out of the Protank. Symmetry it turned out was not as consequential as t.m.c.'s more efficient conversion at the wind. Lead length, not as much a factor. Although the positive leads to be super stable should match closely in duals. Otherwise, you get pairs that may light exceedingly well individually for uniformity but not at the same temp respective to each other…because of that slight diff in resistance. Conclusion, the positive's the thing.

Consequently, I typically don't do one coil then another. Rather, I'll set either positives or negatives first to ensure I can localize the pos leads precisely equidistant to the post. Also conserving the natural exit direction of the wind. In other words, protecting the end turns such that no modification of strain occurs. This seems to work exceedingly well and was the method used for the above.

It's been fun slip and the adventure continues!

Good luck.

 

[SLIPPY_EEL]

Mac, sorry to go off topic but i know you said you wanted to try an ijoy limitless, and since then i noticed that they brought out a version that holds as they state 6.3ml and on some versions they give you a block that you can sit in one side of the deck like the avocado so you can run single coil with the reduced RDTA volume. I'm still awaiting my stnd 4ml version, should be here any day now, can't way to have a play about with the wicking on this thing, might try and get some mesh involved.

All the best

 

[MacTechVpr]

Mac, sorry to go off topic but i know you said you wanted to try an ijoy limitless, and since then i noticed that they brought out a version that holds as they state 6.3ml and on some versions they give you a block that you can sit in one side of the deck like the avocado so you can run single coil with the reduced RDTA volume. I'm still awaiting my stnd 4ml version, should be here any day now, can't way to have a play about with the wicking on this thing, might try and get some mesh involved.

All the best

Thx. I picked up on that and I'm kinda likin' the idea. Been lookin' the last few days. But you know me, I'm more likely to throw fat wire parallels in 'em. I like 'em slick and low to the ground.

Good luck.

 

[MacTechVpr]

On the subject of wick staining, lifted from the thread Fast wicking | Page 7 | Post #131 |…

Nope. Kamthal A1 36 gauge. Why you asking bro? Is SS better than Kanthal?

My conclusion after a few builds with Kanthal is that oxidation is ongoing. It's not possible to get a comprehensive oxidation in multi-wire but it does beneficially continue. Meantime hot spots will raise heat levels and cook juice. You may not necessarily see the heat variations depending upon room lighting. Some turns usually at center overwhelm vision blurring a distinction of dissimilar color temps when you dry burn. Often it's abundantly clear only when you photo. Variations in turn-to-turn surface oxidation color will reveal just how consistent your wind is…and consequently, how effective it will be. As oxidation continues tho it may lend to balancing the surface vaporization temps enough that staining is curtailed or diminishes. Good enough for government work.

You really don't want a lot of juice on the coil surface. It's at a much hotter temp than the internal wetted surface and vaporization space itself. It instantly cooks. My impression is that surface temp variations will allow juice at times to bypass the normal vaporization space and escape the wick to reach coil surfaces. This happens I surmise as internal convection and vapor pressures build from excess unbalanced heat pushing fluid to less restriction. These zones and bare coil there are however exceedingly hot where overheating of the juice occurs. There is your staining.

An example would be an end-turn where the wick dangles from gravity sag. But such intermittent compression of the wick may occur anywhere in the wind and be exacerbated by overheating.

All clues…for a better build, next time.

Not sure my above is accurate. Ever get a wick too wet or when you drop juice directly on the coil, that first hit. It'll bite ya. Even if anemic (likely)… that's surface cook-off. Not normal vaporization.

Good luck.

 

[SLIPPY_EEL]

On the subject of wick staining, lifted from the thread Fast wicking | Page 7 | Post #131 |…



My conclusion after a few builds with Kanthal is that oxidation is ongoing. It's not possible to get a comprehensive oxidation in multi-wire but it does beneficially continue. Meantime hot spots will raise heat levels and cook juice. You may not necessarily see the heat variations depending upon room lighting. Some turns usually at center overwhelm vision blurring a distinction of dissimilar color temps when you dry burn. Often it's abundantly clear only when you photo. Variations in turn-to-turn surface oxidation color will reveal just how consistent your wind is…and consequently, how effective it will be. As oxidation continues tho it may lend to balancing the surface vaporization temps enough that staining is curtailed or diminishes. Good enough for government work.

You really don't want a lot of juice on the coil surface. It's at a much hotter temp than the internal wetted surface and vaporization space itself. It instantly cooks. My impression is that surface temp variations will allow juice at times to bypass the normal vaporization space and escape the wick to reach coil surfaces. This happens I surmise as internal convection and vapor pressures build from excess unbalanced heat pushing fluid to less restriction. These zones and bare coil there are however exceedingly hot where overheating of the juice occurs. There is your staining.

An example would be an end-turn where the wick dangles from gravity sag. But such intermittent compression of the wick may occur anywhere in the wind and be exacerbated by overheating.

All clues…for a better build, next time.

Not sure my above is accurate. Ever get a wick too wet or when you drop juice directly on the coil, that first hit. It'll bite ya. Even if anemic (likely)… that's surface cook-off. Not normal vaporization.

Good luck.

Good points Mac especially the wick sag from the end of the coil where the last wrap is above the coil and not supporting! the wick in this area can look perfect until you've run in a bit of juice, it start's to collapse under the weight as you mentioned and maybe with a little help from the heating and cooling, unsure!
Maybe a way to remedy this is to stand the wick tail on its end and have a slight curve in it between the deck and coil to allow for shrinkage, maybe throw a splint at it lol
I use the Velocity and have the coils reach from post to post then by the time you wick and shove the tails into the deck they are sat against the side of the deck with no chance of moving Unless you have a really Hot build that blows your wick tails out sideways like on a cartoon

On another Note, I'd like to share my findings when dripping on exotic coils, i believe that most don't give you that harsh hit when dripped directly to the coil in fact i think its the opposite unless you absolutely flood everything which gives a spitty wet vape that stops the coil from heating/performing as should! On a clapton or fused clapton for eg the outer wrap act's as a diffuser as it doesn't receive any power, i believe that the outer wrap acts as a wick itself. Compared to a build of the same spec but without the outer wrap the clapton version isn't as hot a vape, but it is more flavourful!
It normally takes a long button press to get the outer wire wrap to heat up and glow, a normal drag plus the help of the surrounding juice wouldn't be enough to allow this But who knows! i suspect there are a lot of people out there that continually vape back to back and get everything! toasty!

I choose to vape Hot-vHot builds day in day out! atm i have a dual parallel 5wrap of 26g n80, 2.5id at maybe 0.13ohm, wick'ed with ... pad on my dual parallel mech, it's heavenly But i can only take maybe 3 back to back 1s pull's at a time and i'm probably good for 5-10min's at least! like this. Vaping this way my rda never gets Hot like it has done with cooler vapes where you would take anything up to maybe a 6s pull, that's counterintuitive hey, Hot build should be Hot!

 

[MacTechVpr]

…Maybe a way to remedy this is to stand the wick tail on its end and have a slight curve in it between the deck and coil to allow for shrinkage, maybe throw a splint at it lol …

Agreed! Do this with tanks and some drippers. Just enough extra for the mass of wick to press up against the wall and support the extra length of the wick leg. That is, leave the wick ends just a tad longer. That's it. Too dense, splay it out a bit, thin the end to allow a flow along the deck. Then you can build some chunky wicks. Just works!

Have to get to the rest as I can. World's gone nuts.

Good luck.

p.s. I know, like me, you love to share.

 

[MacTechVpr]

I choose to vape Hot-vHot builds day in day out! atm i have a dual parallel 5wrap of 26g n80, 2.5id at maybe 0.13ohm, wick'ed with ... pad on my dual parallel mech, it's heavenly But i can only take maybe 3 back to back 1s pull's at a time and i'm probably good for 5-10min's at least! like this. Vaping this way my rda never gets Hot like it has done with cooler vapes where you would take anything up to maybe a 6s pull, that's counterintuitive hey, Hot build should be Hot!

Just out of curio slip, what's the usual build you vape? Coil i.d. and length, res and power you run at (mech/watts). Typical mass for one of these. Wire combo don't matter, but interesting. Like to compare that vs. some of my hot builds. Could be fun! Might end up building some of yours, and you mine!

I'd add that although I'll do the chuck fest a few times a day in high watt mode. But usually it's a tag here and a pull there. The rest of my time is spent in protracted chaining at 25-45W, 24/7 as my sleep/wake cycle's a lot different than most, using an assorted lot of a doz mechs and variables and half as many juices. But I still vape some things at under 12W and build the 100W+ box on occasion.

Good luck.

 

[SLIPPY_EEL]

Agreed! Do this with tanks and some drippers. Just enough extra for the mass of wick to press up against the wall and support the extra length of the wick leg. That is, leave the wick ends just a tad longer. That's it. Too dense, splay it out a bit, thin the end to allow a flow along the deck. Then you can build some chunky wicks. Just works!

Have to get to the rest as I can. World's gone nuts.

Good luck.

p.s. I know, like me, you love to share.

Yes Mac sharing is caring

I will participate in your build swaps But i will come back at you later, got a few things on right now

 

[SLIPPY_EEL]

A build that i find quite enjoyable Mac is the very one that i gave the specs to i think two posts back, i also prefer mechs to run on, i couldn't be without my dual parallel mechs
I've tried n80, n60 and Kanth A1 so far with this build and has been great no matter the wire, i may order some 26g SS to try out but it may end up being to hot or the finished coils will most probably end up to long.

The build is dual parallel 26g
2.5id
and 5 or 6 wraps which gives around 0.13-0.15ohms.

I know you will end up tensioning both wires together but I did it the lazy way by hand tensioning the first half of the coil with touching wraps then I wrapped the second part of the coil by winding in between.

 

[MacTechVpr]

A build that i find quite enjoyable Mac is the very one that i gave the specs to i think two posts back, i also prefer mechs to run on, i couldn't be without my dual parallel mechs
I've tried n80, n60 and Kanth A1 so far with this build and has been great no matter the wire, i may order some 26g SS to try out but it may end up being to hot or the finished coils will most probably end up to long.

The build is dual parallel 26g
2.5id
and 5 or 6 wraps which gives around 0.13-0.15ohms.

I know you will end up tensioning both wires together but I did it the lazy way by hand tensioning the first half of the coil with touching wraps then I wrapped the second part of the coil by winding in between.

I'll revisit my collection of build specs and strain something that approaches your above temp. Straining || is easy with a screwdriver or PV. Just fix 2 ends (or bend) in a vice and pull as you wind with whatever. You'd be amazed how much tension you can apply to even thick wire with forearm strength. Guarantee you, once you do it you'll be hooked. It really cools down the result which just means the wire's handling the load more efficiently (density).

That's ok, I was skep too. I had to build these things for almost a year before I was solid on my conclusions and posted on Russ' thread. I'm a lazy .... myself slip, as I've said many times. And the funny thing is I liked fat wire parallels best for the maxed out contact area but you're right…don't take a whole lot'a wire for res to drop and they get hot to boot as heat expansion spreads 'em. Anyway, my pref is for cool efficient max power to the wick. That's what let's ya put in the larger Ø, more wick and more flo. Definitely multi-wire is the answer but how you orient it can yield vastly different results. Not all bad and why I was using twisted for such an awfully long time.

Gimme a little time and I'll do some of those twisted lead parallels for a 2-post. Have a couple'a Hobos and Mut4s' around here somewhere. Just been spending too much time trying to work out 4mm builds for Lance Wallen's zen style dripper, about the most rock solid deck ever+goldplate industrial strength hardware. And those honeys need to go mech, strictly hybrid into zen tubes.

Good luck.