Why don't people want e-liquid labels changed?

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Jode

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Responding to this post as well and will just note that I liked this post and was the first (perhaps only) person to like it.

That doesn't mean I agree with everything, but I like how you worded the first paragraph as your opinion on things and IS how I have taken most of what you are arguing for in this thread, as your opinion and thoughts on the issue(s).

I do agree that if one is using (or has used) vaping as way to cease smoking, that the barrage of stories about cloud competitions does do an injustice to their own story, which strikes me as the majority of vapers current reason for vaping. Yet, I also think this majority hasn't been very consistent with what it is they want in terms of "reasonable regulation." Circa 2010, it was then about "do not treat this product as a drug" for prescriptions only will prevent people making the switch as easily as they might. So, TPTB said to vaping industry, then stop making claims that make it seem like eCigs contain some sort of miracle drug to lead potential users (and current smokers) to never wanting to smoke again. The industry, for most part, agreed to this concession. And as I noted before, when the Judge Leon ruling came forth saying this was more like a recreational tobacco product, the vaping community treated that as MAJOR victory. If not a drug, and more like tobacco, then that was then seen a very good political reality going forward. But flash-forward to 2013 (and to the present) and now "we" are unhappy it is treated as a recreational (tobacco) product. Cause, ya know, it has helped so many people stop smoking and that story shouldn't be ignored.

In essence, I think we are still fighting that first battle, but also dealing with ANTZ doctrine that goes back 50 years with regards to anything having to do with 'cigarette.' I think manufacturers (sellers) have a good handle on things, and are treating it as recreational product. And I think there are enough vaping forums and word of mouth advertising for any smoker to realize that this can be a product that leads to cessation, as may be desired by (potential) users. Thus, it is all good for vaping community, except for the whole ANTZ doctrine that seeks to heavily restrict and considers banning a "reasonable regulation."

As a recreational product, cloud competitions make sense. And as something that is 'extreme' and both visible in culture and makes for good visuals for presenting something new, I think it holds appeal. To me, the positive spin is it shows anyone that these eCig things can produce a lot of what looks like smoke. Some might think, like I did before I got into vaping, that there's no way those things could produce as much "smoke" as what a 'real cigarette' does. Yet, cloud comps make it abundantly clear that they produce far more, and that it is not smoke. Looks like smoke, but is not smoke. Which is very interesting. I also think cloud comps are showing society that it is in fact a recreational product. And there are no recreational activities that I'm aware of that hold zero harm. A game of tag could be harmful unless everyone involved is there purely to have fun, and aware of some very basic ground rules. A competitive game in a swimming pool is the same, though likely more "extreme" than similar game being played on land as the risk is you could always go under water and who knows what happens to you then? But given some ground rules and people there who are caring / considerate, chances are you'll have lots of fun and not get in any danger. Though you could, and that can't be ignored. Name a recreational activity, any recreational activity, and do realize that if something goes wrong, you (or someone you know) could be seriously hurt. In fact, there are many popular recreational activities where people have been seriously hurt, and yet we humans still do them, knowing that at any moment another serious injury could occur. Risk / reward type stuff.

But I do think like DeAnna2112 noted, as many others have, that it is just begging FDA to take a harder look at what this whole vaping culture is up to. And is likely leading to more scrutiny and zealous regulations than the smoking cessation crowd deserves. But the genie is out of the bottle, and because the product is now more recreational than therapeutic (for good reason), it can't be one segment of vaping community that gets to dictate how the genie behaves. Even if that segment is the overwhelming majority. I would say cessation / reduction is still clearly king in the vaping community and that most outsiders are well aware of this. Zealots are going to continue telling a false narrative to keep their work alive, while vaping community will continue being happy that the product exists and (for now) is available on the open market for anyone to try, enjoy and do what they will with it.

I want to make it clear that I am not picking on DeAnna for her opinions nor am I saying they are wrong, I am merely trying to get her and anybody else that wants to look at just one segment of this community and says we need to conform to just that group, that this doesn't work for me. There is nothing "One size fits all" about the vaping world. The same goes for what I am about to say here. I understand what you are saying in your well thought out post, but I don't get why one group (cloud chasers) does an injustice to those with struggles that use vaping purely as harm reduction. I have just recently taken up walking to help improve my health. Does the younger extreme hikers, joggers or Biggest Losers diminish my efforts? I would think people would tell me I was silly if I said that they did. Some vapers started to help them making better life choice others could have been tempted by cigs (or just starting to smoke) and saw a rather cool alternative. I don't think one takes away from the other. I love a great success story but I also enjoy to see the younger group make smarter choices right from the get go. Your last paragraph may be true but I am hoping in the end that they will see that there isn't much this next generation isn't going to try to make extreme. Even kiddie stuff is pretty extreme. When I was young and wanted to cool off we ran through a sprinkler or maybe were lucky enough to have a wading pool. I just setup this pretty amazing water slide for my grandkids (Littles). Extreme can be a bit more dangerous, like you said, but it sure looks fun. Both sets of kids cool off, but one set does it in a much funner way. IDK maybe my examples and thoughts are off base but I enjoy watching to see what comes next.
 

Cacique

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I want to make it clear that I am not picking on DeAnna for her opinions nor am I saying they are wrong, I am merely trying to get her and anybody else that wants to look at just one segment of this community and says we need to conform to just that group, that this doesn't work for me. There is nothing "One size fits all" about the vaping world. The same goes for what I am about to say here. I understand what you are saying in your well thought out post, but I don't get why one group (cloud chasers) does an injustice to those with struggles that use vaping purely as harm reduction. I have just recently taken up walking to help improve my health. Does the younger extreme hikers, joggers or Biggest Losers diminish my efforts? I would think people would tell me I was silly if I said that they did. Some vapers started to help them making better life choice others could have been tempted by cigs (or just starting to smoke) and saw a rather cool alternative. I don't think one takes away from the other. I love a great success story but I also enjoy to see the younger group make smarter choices right from the get go. Your last paragraph may be true but I am hoping in the end that they will see that there isn't much this next generation isn't going to try to make extreme. Even kiddie stuff is pretty extreme. When I was young and wanted to cool off we ran through a sprinkler or maybe were lucky enough to have a wading pool. I just setup this pretty amazing water slide for my grandkids (Littles). Extreme can be a bit more dangerous, like you said, but it sure looks fun. Both sets of kids cool off, but one set does it in a much funner way. IDK maybe my examples and thoughts are off base but I enjoy watching to see what comes next.

And to those who would argue that the people who have never smoked should never pick up vaping or whatever, look at human history. Humans throughout history likes many different things/substances. Many people need to get over "If you do this or that you're bad" mentality.
 

Jman8

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There is nothing "One size fits all" about the vaping world.

I think we (all) agree on this point, which is both good news and something where a size does fit us all. As in we all agree that one size (or path) doesn't fit us all.

I understand what you are saying in your well thought out post, but I don't get why one group (cloud chasers) does an injustice to those with struggles that use vaping purely as harm reduction. I have just recently taken up walking to help improve my health. Does the younger extreme hikers, joggers or Biggest Losers diminish my efforts? I would think people would tell me I was silly if I said that they did.

Not your personal efforts. Of course not. And hiking is probably not a good comparison as I don't think hiking community is under scrutiny right now, and for sure don't think they are dealing with something akin to ANTZ at the federal level for past 50 years. Plus hiking is one of those things that is arguably older than any other activity around, so not a good comparison.

Some vapers started to help them making better life choice others could have been tempted by cigs (or just starting to smoke) and saw a rather cool alternative. I don't think one takes away from the other. I love a great success story but I also enjoy to see the younger group make smarter choices right from the get go. Your last paragraph may be true but I am hoping in the end that they will see that there isn't much this next generation isn't going to try to make extreme. Even kiddie stuff is pretty extreme. When I was young and wanted to cool off we ran through a sprinkler or maybe were lucky enough to have a wading pool. I just setup this pretty amazing water slide for my grandkids (Littles). Extreme can be a bit more dangerous, like you said, but it sure looks fun. Both sets of kids cool off, but one set does it in a much funner way. IDK maybe my examples and thoughts are off base but I enjoy watching to see what comes next.

I too enjoy the idea of cloud comps. I'm thinking many in the vaping community do, while for sure some don't. But the injustice comes from the idea that vaping is for some (I think the majority) a therapeutic endeavor with the (miraculous) benefit to quit smoking. I'm not in that camp and am a very proud moderate smoker. Yet, I'm familiar with that camp (having quit cold turkey in my past) and can relate to it very much because vaping has allowed me to become the moderate smoker which 3 years ago I would've said is not possible for me - either I smoke abusively or I quit cold turkey, there was no option for moderation. Now there is. So, I get the therapeutic claim. And the therapeutic camp (at least some of them) think only having vaping being presented as a recreational activity (cloud comps) is doing an injustice to what is for them (the majority) the #1 benefit (or even reason) for anyone to vape.

I think that explains it pretty well. I would just also add that I (and apparently you, and I would think many others) can relate to the recreational aspect that is found in at least part of the vaping community, and that we (or I) can make room to accept that. Were it not for the huge ANTZ factor, I think far more of the community would embrace or accept cloud comps. But because ANTZ just love to rain on our vaping parade, then I think it is like some kids in the neighborhood set up the coolest sprinkler ever, and decided to put it on old man Johnson's lawn who just happens to despise kids and anyone who would dare walk on his lawn. Something about how it will renormalize fun and Mr. Johnson has worked for the last 50 years to eradicate that from the neighborhood.
 

NealBJr

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I had a real long post lined up, but ended up deleting it. But it was comparing vaping to cars. In short, You can drive your daily car to and from work. Some people take cars to the extreme, and go to races. People get killed taking their cars to races, but that's not a reason to ban cars because of the mortality of racing. If anything, the racing industry has improved the cars we drive daily to and from work by making them safer... which is the same for the vaping industry. I don't enter cloud competitions, but I do enjoy subtanks. Some of the products and techniques used in cloud competitions have improved my vaporizer.
 

Lessifer

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How about bike riding? Many people ride a bike as a good form of transportation, or for exercise. It's not a completely safe activity, there are risks involved, but if you take the proper precautions it can be relatively safe. There are "extreme" forms of biking, like BMX or whatever the current equivalent is, and some people think it entices kids into not being safe, while others think it's good exposure and gets kids wanting to learn about biking. Do you need to be able to do a 720 spin mid air to be able to ride to the grocery store? No, but if you're safe about it, why not let people enjoy the recreational aspect of it. Get enough people behind you and the government may even create bike lanes, bike paths, or even parks specifically for doing tricks.

Cloud competitions may seem frivolous and irresponsible to some, but a lot of the innovation in vaping comes from those same people pushing beyond the boundaries of what currently is.
 

AndriaD

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I had a real long post lined up, but ended up deleting it. But it was comparing vaping to cars. In short, You can drive your daily car to and from work. Some people take cars to the extreme, and go to races. People get killed taking their cars to races, but that's not a reason to ban cars because of the mortality of racing. If anything, the racing industry has improved the cars we drive daily to and from work by making them safer... which is the same for the vaping industry. I don't enter cloud competitions, but I do enjoy subtanks. Some of the products and techniques used in cloud competitions have improved my vaporizer.

They don't even ban cars despite the thousands of fatalities every year, right out on the roads. Isn't that the #1 cause of death in the US?

Andria
 

AndriaD

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You'd be amazed to find who's on third place:

Stunning News On Preventable Deaths In Hospitals - Forbes

arguably not any better than smoking.

When "hospitals" were first invented, in their modern manifestation, they were places where one went to die, and the surest way to be sure that you did die of any given malady was to go to a hospital for it. It seems that little has changed. I suffered a surgical site infection last summer; last year when my mother's hip replacement had to be RE-done, they gave her an antibiotic that almost killed her -- she went "code blue" stat, or whatever they call it when they haul in the crash cart and bring the person back from total stoppage of respiration and heart.

It's terrrible.

Andria
 

AndriaD

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Politics and corruption would be my guess.

Right.. and also that BP isn't paying them a gadzillion bucks to find all the problems in hospitals, only to invent imaginary problems with e-cigs.

Andria
 

scrabble

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So why are these "public healthcare" guys concentrating on "fixing vaping", where there's nothing to fix, when there's so much work in their own barn?

I think the government should be doing its job. Some of the liquids are not safe (the ones that contain diacetyl). But just because some of the ingredients in some liquids are not safe does not mean that it all isn't safe. People should feel confident in acknowledging that there is good cause to use some regulation. And if somebody doesn't understand the way electricity works they can be harmed. See an example of a safety concern in this video (starts at 7:49):

 
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scrabble

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Labeling isn't a new concern because it's part of tobacco regulation. Other countries have had their cigarette labels possessed by government but it hasn't happened in the United States yet. I haven't heard anything about eliquid labeling, though. That's interesting.

111108122400-fda-new-cigarette-warning-labels-story-top.jpg
 

skoony

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I think the government should be doing its job. Some of the liquids are not safe (the ones that contain diacetyl). But just because some of the ingredients in some liquids are not safe does not mean that it all isn't safe. People should feel confident in acknowledging that there is good cause to use some regulation. And if somebody doesn't understand the way electricity works they can be harmed. See an example of a safety concern in this video (starts at 7:49):


some of the liquids in e-juice namely diacetyl have been linked
to popcorn lung.all cases of popcorn lung except one are work
place related. there is no indication that it is harmful when
used in vaping,only in relation to the manufacture of
microwave popcorn and recently roasting coffee beans.
mike
 

Jode

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Thanks to all that came up with way better examples of why cloud comps or extreme vaping (as long as done safely and with knowledge) does not (should not) take away from the original reason for vaping. Jman8, I can see we are on the same side, I was just curious about those few statements and you cleared it up for me. I am hoping the "Old man Johnson" (or ANTZ) will have no choice but to accept that the next generation is moving in despite his grumblings. Who knows....maybe, just maybe, it will be the cloud chasing crowd that eventually starts to get old enough to take positions to be able to change things and we actually become a society with choices in this arena. This may not help me directly but if I can think of the future generations having a safer alternative to cigs it makes me a happy person.
 

scrabble

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some of the liquids in e-juice namely diacetyl have been linked
to popcorn lung.all cases of popcorn lung except one are work
place related. there is no indication that it is harmful when
used in vaping,only in relation to the manufacture of
microwave popcorn and recently roasting coffee beans.
mike

Yes but these liquids are relatively new and nobody knows yet what some years of using liquids containing diacetyl will do. I definitely will not be taking the risk and I'm glad I found out about it.

Plus, I have had an adverse reaction from using eliquids. I won't say which high profile company but I will say that it's PG related (bubbling mucus, which I choked on in my sleep).

I'm all for vaping but I'm also not going to shy away from the truth that it isn't 100% entirely safe. It just isn't.
 

skoony

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Yes but these liquids are relatively new and nobody knows yet what some years of using liquids containing diacetyl will do. I definitely will not be taking the risk and I'm glad I found out about it.

Plus, I have had an adverse reaction from using eliquids. I won't say which high profile company but I will say that it's PG related (bubbling mucus, which I choked on in my sleep).

I'm all for vaping but I'm also not going to shy away from the truth that it isn't 100% entirely safe. It just isn't.
since vaping has been determined to be 99% plus or minus 1% safer than
smoking even with the so called "bad stuff",that means its totally safe
or its safer than drinking tap water. pick your own potential of harm
and go with it.
they don't know the long term effects.their not even sure its harmful
in the short term.actually there is no hard evidence it is harmful
at all.
mike
 

scrabble

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since vaping has been determined to be 99% plus or minus 1% safer than
smoking even with the so called "bad stuff",that means its totally safe
or its safer than drinking tap water. pick your own potential of harm
and go with it.
they don't know the long term effects.their not even sure its harmful
in the short term.actually there is no hard evidence it is harmful
at all.
mike
I agree that it's safer than smoking cigarettes but I don't agree that it's safer than drinking tap water. You might not have choked but I did. And it was scary. It isn't as safe as people want to believe that it is. People are afraid that vaping will be banned and they're also afraid for any health concerns to be proven. I'm not. I think it can only force improvements to be made. I don't think e-cigs will be banned because cigarettes aren't even banned. Well anyway, I think liquids that contain diacetyl should be labeled so the buyer is informed.
 

kaahn

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I agree that it's safer than smoking cigarettes but I don't agree that it's safer than drinking tap water. You might not have choked but I did. And it was scary. It isn't as safe as people want to believe that it is. People are afraid that vaping will be banned and they're also afraid for any health concerns to be proven. I'm not. I think it can only force improvements to be made. I don't think e-cigs will be banned because cigarettes aren't even banned. Well anyway, I think liquids that contain diacetyl should be labeled so the buyer is informed.
Like I said in a previous post if labels are regulated to include things like "this product may contain diacetyl" I fear it won't work to protect you any more than not including it on the label. Ejuice companies will put it on all labels whether it contains it or not to cover their assets from a legal standpoint. So you still will not know with 100% surety that any liquid does or does not in fact contain diacetyl. So why do we need the regulation?
 

skoony

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I agree that it's safer than smoking cigarettes but I don't agree that it's safer than drinking tap water. You might not have choked but I did. And it was scary. It isn't as safe as people want to believe that it is. People are afraid that vaping will be banned and they're also afraid for any health concerns to be proven. I'm not. I think it can only force improvements to be made. I don't think e-cigs will be banned because cigarettes aren't even banned. Well anyway, I think liquids that contain diacetyl should be labeled so the buyer is informed.
if you choked on it you were doing something wrong or you are allergic to something in the
juice,niether of which no regulations would help.
as an individual you are in a better position to find what takes care of your needs
as opposed to banning or regulating out of existence what most other people
are perfectly ok with.
mike
 
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