18650 Extra battery Storage

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Thrasher

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I thought we were talking about storage cases :(


( i dont see any non AW batteries on provapes website)
After using CGR and NCR to oxidize wicks and having the CGR's get very hot very fast while the NCRs do not I decided I believe the videos.

Once I found out 99% of what I read about NCR's on forums was wrong and that all NCRs were NNP I don't really care which one I throw into a mech to oxidize wicks. They don't get warm for me unlike the recommended "hybrid" CGR did.

I believe the inability to handle high thermal load is exactly why these batteries were cancelled, I have some that have been used in the past to pulse out coils and now they behave extremely odd. the mods or even the kick will say the battery as dead and needing a charge yet a MM will show them as having a 3.7v charge left. and they will not fire until fully charged again. until that point they worked well but I do not think they were designed with high heat (current) stress in mind
 
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Myk

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I thought we were talking about storage cases :(


( i dont see any non AW batteries on provapes website)


I believe the inability to handle high thermal load is exactly why these batteries were cancelled, I have some that have been used in the past to pulse out coils and now they behave extremely odd. the mods or even the kick will say the battery as dead and needing a charge yet a MM will show them as having a 3.7v charge left. and they will not fire until fully charged again. until that point they worked well but I do not think they were designed with high heat (current) stress in mind

They had a 2 part question, second part asked about their IMR batteries not lasting (well yeah, they're 2000mAh). It would've been easier if they just asked about storage :)

I figured CGR was discontinued because NCR is newer and that much better (searching NCR-A turns up a lot about some hot thing hybrid/electric car). But I guess part of that newer and better is the HLR and may have been designed to fix problems with CGR.

Mine don't act odd, but I only used one to oxidize that one wick for a few clicks and decided never again.
 

Ryedan

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There are some YT videos with hard shorts using CGR, IMR and NCR. (see below)
After using CGR and NCR to oxidize wicks and having the CGR's get very hot very fast while the NCRs do not I decided I believe the videos.

Once I found out 99% of what I read about NCR's on forums was wrong and that all NCRs were NNP I don't really care which one I throw into a mech to oxidize wicks. They don't get warm for me unlike the recommended "hybrid" CGR did.

I don't know about puncture tests or anything like that.

The thing is when you short an NCR the safety features seem to limit the power flow like a protection circuit would.
Callies Kustoms 3100mAh Panasonic 18650 batteries on sale now! - YouTube
Callies Kustoms IMR Battery and AW short circuit observations - YouTube
cgr18650ch.wmv - YouTube

Thank you Myk! I have not seem these before and they are exactly what I was looking for :thumb:
 

Myrany

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Are you talking VV or mech REO?
I had an eGo-C battery short out and the eGo protection curcuit shut it down. I've had coils/wicks in Vamos and eVics short out and drop below 1.2Ω and they shut it down. VV are supposed to have protection, the VV REO has it.

The thing is when you short an NCR the safety features seem to limit the power flow like a protection circuit would.
Callies Kustoms 3100mAh Panasonic 18650 batteries on sale now! - YouTube
Callies Kustoms IMR Battery and AW short circuit observations - YouTube
cgr18650ch.wmv - YouTube

It is a Mech REO. My only real protection is good battery selection. CHecking everything constantly. I stay well above 1 ohm barring accident like I experienced, and my heat spring.
 

Myk

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Thank you Myk! I have not seem these before and they are exactly what I was looking for :thumb:

Found the link to the Panasonic site showing the NCRs as NNP (except the E, but if you open the pdf it says NNP in there).
Cylindrical Type | Lithium Ion Batteries (For Europe) | Batteries & Energy Products | Panasonic Industrial Devices Europe
That is what sold me on the whole NCR line (keeping amps in mind). Before I saw that link but saw the videos the A was the only one I really trusted to oxidize a wick.

Their files do have IMR chemistry listed as safer but don't explain why (guessing it's a culmination of all the safety tests). I figure a hard short like the videos is the most likely problem we'll see whether in a pocket or a malfunction.
 

macpeace

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LOL. ummm thanks for well... I'll just check out the case and let you know. Also although I am new to these batteries, having been a MVP guy mostly, and still am, I do believe the batteries I have are unprotected IMR. Was just wondering if putting them in this metal case would be a mistake. Thanks. Oh and as far as longer lasting batteries go, after 5 pages of techno talk I am no closer to an answer. :)
 

ITPython

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lol, well the brand of that battery explains why you had an issue. But it does show what could happen if the protection of even a high quality Li-ion went out and was exposed to harsh conditions.

Regardless of whether a battery will fit in a mod or not, electric regulated mods that use buck-boost circuitry and PWM (pulse width modulation) to achieve variable voltage perform best when a high drain battery is used. Provape engineers provided the following explanation why:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/provape/334831-technical-why-high-drain-batteries.html

"And we have to keep in mind that this is ONLY the average current. Because the Provari converter is a pulsing device, the pulsed battery current can be a factor of 2 higher than the average current. REALLY, the battery needs to supply pulsed currents of over 9 amps. These engineering calculations show why you need a high quality, LOW INTERNAL RESISTANCE, battery to supply what the Provari converter needs.

"But wait, why do the cheap batteries work at all? They work when the output is not adjusted to supply high power. They get by running at low power but the full capacity of the battery is NEVER available because of the voltage drop due to the higher internal resistance causes them to shut down early. So if you think you are getting 2500 maH out of a battery with that rating you would be wrong.


Ok, I can go with that, as the safe maximum amperage is being exceeded when pulsed. In that case, high-drain would be the right choice.

Although I still stick to the notion that if the maximum amperage isn't being exceeded, then a high-quality battery with a fully functioning protection circuit can be just as safe, if not more safe, than an unprotected IMR. And it has significantly more capacity.

I the thing is, IMR unprotected is likely marketed as the only type of battery that should be used with ecig mods because that is taking into consideration that the people using these batteries may not be well informed about li-ion batteries. So if they are all using IMR high-drain, then overall are much safer than if they were all using protected batteries, which could garbage brands like Trustfire/Ultrafire, with much lower discharge rates and possibly faulty or non-existent protection circuits.

But for the informed li-ion user who knows their batteries limits, knows their mods amperage, stays within safe discharge rates, uses common sense when using/handling li-ion cells, and has a trusted high-quality battery with fully functioning protection circuits, will be significantly safer than using unprotected cells.
 

Myk

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LOL. ummm thanks for well... I'll just check out the case and let you know. Also although I am new to these batteries, having been a MVP guy mostly, and still am, I do believe the batteries I have are unprotected IMR. Was just wondering if putting them in this metal case would be a mistake. Thanks. Oh and as far as longer lasting batteries go, after 5 pages of techno talk I am no closer to an answer. :)

NCR18650B (unprotected) are the longest lasting I know of and they are OK in a protected mod like your VTR.
 

stillnotsmoking

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I purchased the small zipper pouch (Ballistic Nylon Battery Case with Keyring) to hold two 18650s or 1 18650 and 1 juice bottle but the OP started me looking for a keychain type alternative, until now never had anything but the clear plastic cases. This one has caught my eye but it is pricey :\

Oveready Derlin Capsule - 18650 Would be perfect as I rarely need more than 1 18650/day unless its a REALLY long day. I try to carry as little as possible along with me most days.
 

WattWick

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NCR18650B or NCR18650PD

NCR-B safer than any IMR battery IMHO, PD I don't think it has PTC, but still my favorite.

Hey what happened with battery storage boxes?

Good old Ziplock or Home Depot PVC pipes?

I have been trying to find some information on how these hybrid batteries act when shorted, but I've come short. (Prr-pssh).

Got any specifics? I'm almost to the point where I will short out a NCR18650PF just to see. In a controlled way, of course.
 
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Myk

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I have been trying to find some information on how these hybrid batteries act when shorted, but I've come short. (Prr-pssh).

Got any specifics? I'm almost to the point where I will short out a NCR18650PF just to see. In a controlled way, of course.

The videos I've posted.

I'm half tempted to set up a way to remotely short them. And then I'd probably have to use a rifle to run a puncture test while I'm at it :D
 

Strontium

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AW will heat above 230F, and melt everything.
Panasonic 3100, 3400 (unprotected) will go up to around 130F and PTC will disconnect current flow. PTC will reset after cooling down and you can charge it again, but I personally wouldn't use it after that.
Panasonic PF or PD will heat up to 150F and it will be unusable from that point. No violent reaction because of CID.
You cannot compare Panasonic, and AW. Big guys from auto industry (Tesla) are using Panasonic 3100, and 3400 cells, not AW.

Panasonic protected rewraps AW, Orbtronics will cut current completely at 12 Amps, and you can reset them w/o problem.
 
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Baditude

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It seems that Provape people have no problem selling "high quality" Protected Trustfire ICRs with their products. ;)
You prompted me to ask the Provape Team to inquire why they are selling the Trustfire 14500 protected ICR batteries for their Provape-1 mechanical mod in wake of current recommendations that IMR safe chemistry batteries may be a safer alternative.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/provape/487949-question-tech-engineers-provape-about-protected-trustfire-batteries.html

jennifer360 said:
Hi Baditude. I have sent this question on to our engineers and will have an answer to you shortly :)
jennifer360 said:
Hey all, I am so sorry for the delayed response. When we started with the PV-1 the Trustfire 14500 battery was one of the few options available at that time. The AW protected 14500 cell came along after and we started offering those for use with the PV1. Most people purchase the AW batteries with their PV1, so we don’t sell a lot of the Trust fire cells.

With some recent testing we have found that the IMR version of the 14500 cell from AW has a lower resistance and is better to use. The AW IMR cells arrived recently and we are working on changing over to that cell for the PV1.
 
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Baditude

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True, shorts do happen. With a protected battery, like an AW 3400mAh, short-circuit protection is there, along with over-discharge protection. So if a short happens, the protection circuit kicks in and you are safe. With a battery that has no short protection, it releases a HUGE amount of energy.

However a protected battery with a faulty protection circuit that doesn't protect against shorts or over-discharging, may be a big problem. Which is why purchasing decent protected batteries is pretty important. But either way, I would rather have a protected battery that can stop shorts or over-discharging rather than a non-protected battery which if exposed to a short, will 100% short out and release an insane amount of energy.

Basically:

- Non-protected batteries will short out 100% of the time if they are exposed to a short.
- Protected batteries will only short out of protection circuit is faulty or doesn't have short-circuit protection.

The difference in safe chemistry li-mn vs ncr li-ion batteries is li-ion batteries have a volatile chemistry (as in FLAMABLE). When a safe chemistry battery goes into thermal runaway, it will vent gas. A li-ion battery will vent gas and flames and will possible cause an explosion. This is the very reason why they have protection circuits and safe chemistry batteries don't.

Li-mn battery chemistry is more tolerant to stress and heat and less likely to fail than a li-ion battery.

battery_fire.jpgbattery_failure.jpg
 
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Myk

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The difference in safe chemistry li-mn vs ncr li-ion batteries is li-ion batteries have a volatile chemistry (as in FLAMABLE). When a safe chemistry battery goes into thermal runaway, it will vent gas. A li-ion battery will vent gas and flames and will possible cause an explosion. This is the very reason why they have protection circuits and safe chemistry batteries don't.

Li-mn battery chemistry is more tolerant to stress and heat and less likely to fail than a li-ion battery.

View attachment 270318View attachment 270319

Search the forum and you'll find similar pictures of IMR batteries that have gone up in flames (as in flammable).

Since some people like to treat all mod recommendations the same wouldn't the safest recommendation be to stop using mechanical mods?
 

emus

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Since some people like to treat all mod recommendations the same wouldn't the safest recommendation be to stop using mechanical mods?

I feel safe w/ a hot spring mechanical mod w/ extra large vent holes on both ends.
I also feel safe w/ fused altoids mod; no way it can double as a pipe bomb.
I don't trust some cheaply made cigalikes and vv/vw PVs.

The hard shorts I've experienced were due to atty defects; never had an APV hard short to date.
One hard short due to 510 connector center pin insulator failure.
One hard short due to RBA clone over sized fill screw head touching hot post; I ground screw head smaller to correct.
 

Baditude

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...wouldn't the safest recommendation be to stop using mechanical mods?

:thumb: I totally agree with you on this point. I pretty much stopped using my mechanicals the day I received my first regulated mod, and have not purchased another mech since.

I never suggest a mechanical mod for a person's first e-cigarette, nor as their first mod. A regulated mod is far safer via it's built-in protective circuitry which is far superior to anything you can put into a mechanical mod. It can keep a novice out of trouble until they have had opportunity to learn how to use a mechanical mod more safely.

Unfortunately, the current popular trend is for mechanical mods, and many first time users are not aware of the added potential risks.
 
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