3rd Hand Smoke Report Affect Vaporers?

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VapinDove

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Hi all - need your help.

Apparently it was all over the internet yesterday about "3rd Hand Smoke" dangers. Granted, it was talking about actual analog smoking and its residue that lies on carpets, clothes and lingers in the air and how they managed to determine its harmful effects especially to babies and small children.

This raised a concern to my lifetime NON-smoking husband. He thinks this concern also applies to e-cig nic vaporers because we are also blowing out nicotine molecules . This leaves residue as well. i,.e, matter cannot be destroyed theory albeit, the vaper is not induced by fire; however, vapor is vapor.

Before now, he was very tolerant of me vaping; however, he has been noticing that I'm vaping more than when I started 2+ months ago and now he's "smelling" the vaper. He is concerned that my vaping nicotine has will have the same effect as regular smoking in the air he breathes. What argument can I give him on this that is factual ? Are there any articles out there that confirms that "e-cigarette vapor" is safe on others other than what we find on the Supplier's websites?

Being a 30+ yr smoker that found a way to quit 3 months ago, this newsflash report did not make me happy. If there is a health risk for him, I will vape outside but I want a valid reason for me to have to do that rather than pondering this theory. More importantly, will this article extend to also include e-cigarettes soon?

Your thoughts and agruments are welcomed.

Here's an excerpt from the MSNBC.msn.com site:

"Our study shows that when this residual nicotine reacts with ambient nitrous acid it forms carcinogenic tobacco-specific nitrosamines or TSNAs," Destaillats said. "TSNAs are among the most broadly acting and potent carcinogens present in unburned tobacco and tobacco smoke."
Unvented gas appliances are the main source of nitrous acid indoors.
The researchers used cellulose as a model of indoor material, and exposed it to cigarette smoke. They then exposed it to a "high but reasonable" concentration of nitrous acid for three hours. The levels of newly formed TSNAs were 10 times higher after the nitrous acid exposure. The TSNAs also formed quickly, the researchers found.
"Given the rapid sorption and persistence of high levels of nicotine on indoor surfaces, including clothing and human skin, our findings indicate that third-hand smoke represents an unappreciated health hazard through dermal exposure, dust inhalation and ingestion," said lead author Mohamad Sleiman, also of Berkeley Lab.
 

tarheeldan

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From what I've seen thus far there's little cause for concern. The amounts of nicotine exhaled in vapor are are tiny (from 3 published and 1 unpublished study). The story behind this particular study is that, in contact with nitrous acid, TSNA's are generated chemically. Do you have any unvented gas appliances? Even then, they were talking about TSNA counts per square meter. Moreover, the nitrous acid content they used is far higher than normal conditions.
 

Katmar

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    From what I've seen thus far there's little cause for concern. The amounts of nicotine exhaled in vapor are are tiny (from 3 published and 1 unpublished study). The story behind this particular study is that, in contact with nitrous acid, TSNA's are generated chemically. Do you have any unvented gas appliances? Even then, they were talking about TSNA counts per square meter. Moreover, the nitrous acid content they used is far higher than normal conditions.

    And if you DO have any unvented gas appliances, ...RUN!!!
     

    VapinDove

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    . Do you have any unvented gas appliances? Even then, they were talking about TSNA counts per square meter.

    @Tarheeldan - To answer your question, no, I don't have any unvented gas appliances. I have a gas fireplace but it is vented outside, of course. We don't even use it...lol

    The other things you said in replying are good. I am going to gather up these comments and present a debate of sorts to DH.

    Stephaniems: I will remind him of all the potatoes he eats but he will say that it is something he does that doesn't affect me but what I am doing may be affecting him.

    Come on guys - need more ammuition...

    I did scope around the threads here and posted on my favorite the New Zealand report and the comments on the thread about the possibility that legislators are trying to get us to vape outside like the smokers. I cut and pasted it on an e-mail. Still gathering up information.

    I might add that DH has allergies and asthma.
     

    tarheeldan

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    no, I don't have any unvented gas appliances. I have a gas fireplace but it is vented outside, of course. We don't even use it...lol

    There you go, I think the argument is simple (my E's should be mirrored vertically to represent "exists" as in symbolic logic):

    (E nicotine) ^ (E nitrous acid) --> (E TSNA's)

    The reality:
    (!E appreciable levels of nicotine) ^ (!E appreciable levels of nitrous acid) --> (!E appreciable levels of TSNA's)
     

    VapinDove

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    There you go, I think the argument is simple (my E's should be mirrored vertically to represent "exists" as in symbolic logic):

    (E nicotine) ^ (E nitrous acid) --> (E TSNA's)

    The reality:
    (!E appreciable levels of nicotine) ^ (!E appreciable levels of nitrous acid) --> (!E appreciable levels of TSNA's)

    With due respect: Huh? ;)
     

    Drozd

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    MY big thing is I don't consider the source reputable...
    The lab this was done at is at University of California -Berkley

    Everything in Cali causes cancer to begin with and Berkley is really the most ultra liberal alarmist instutution there..
    Come on not only did they give Timothy Leary a PHD...but they put him on staff..

    I've posted on another thread the toxicology reports so far as far as inhalation of PG from more reputable sources such as Time, NASA, British medical Journal, journal of pharmacology... that theres no real danger in inhaling PG (In fact it could be a good thing as it can act as an air germicide)..how much if any nicotine is left in what we exhale when vaping hasn't been established..
     

    VapinDove

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    MY big thing is I don't consider the source reputable...
    The lab this was done at is at University of California -Berkley

    Everything in Cali causes cancer to begin with and Berkley is really the most ultra liberal alarmist instutution there..
    Come on not only did they give Timothy Leary a PHD...but they put him on staff..

    I've posted on another thread the toxicology reports so far as far as inhalation of PG from more reputable sources such as Time, NASA, British medical Journal, journal of pharmacology... that theres no real danger in inhaling PG (In fact it could be a good thing as it can act as an air germicide)..how much if any nicotine is left in what we exhale when vaping hasn't been established..


    Many people don't care about the sources - just the fact that it has been publicized - ::: oh, well, then it must be true::: ~ they say.

    The EXHALE particles is what my current problem in my debate with DH. It will be an issue for all of us vaporers if they deem our exhales as unsafe as they have in 2nd hand smoke with analogs.

    I hope a bonified study comes out on the exhale safety soon and how e-cigarettes would affect the general public. If it is deemed "not harmful" then I think we'll have half the battled licked.

    Thanks for your input, Drozd. I'll check out your toxology reports.
     

    SikVapor

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    MY big thing is I don't consider the source reputable...
    The lab this was done at is at University of California -Berkley

    Everything in Cali causes cancer to begin with and Berkley is really the most ultra liberal alarmist instutution there..
    Come on not only did they give Timothy Leary a PHD...but they put him on staff..

    I've posted on another thread the toxicology reports so far as far as inhalation of PG from more reputable sources such as Time, NASA, British medical Journal, journal of pharmacology... that theres no real danger in inhaling PG (In fact it could be a good thing as it can act as an air germicide)..how much if any nicotine is left in what we exhale when vaping hasn't been established..

    Hello,

    I've seen you post this numerous times and I've tried to ignore it, but now it's just annoying. First of all, it is spelled Berkeley, not Berkely. The school is the #1 Public university in the country and the lab is a nobel prize winning institution. Your dislike of Leary has no bearing on the topic at hand. But to play your game, a quick wiki search finds that he was employed by Harvard as well. According to your logic, we should disregard anything coming out of Harvard as well.:rolleyes:

    Also, your second paragraph referring to the inhalation of PG has nothing to do with the study, or this discussion. The original poster wants to know about the exhale of vapor and whether it clings to surfaces like cigarette smoke.


    I am not concerned about the findings because the factors present in the study that lead to their conclusions are not replicated in my home or immediate environment. You may not agree with the study, but your reasons for why the study is not reputable are laughable.
     

    daan_f

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    Feb 11, 2010
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    Thank you Sik!
    The fact that people take published scientific studies seriously, regardless of the source, actually has quite good grounds. Scientific publications are subject to peer-review, wherein three (or more) experts on the topic are asked to judge the quality of the study. These experts do not know who the authors of the article are. This means that the quality of the study/article is judged independently from who wrote it.
    This in contrast to a magazine like Time, in which the quality of an article (supposing that they even take scientific integrity as a more important quality than, say, writing style, or how exciting a topic is) is only judged by editors. Scientific and popular articles therefore should never be compared with regards to authority. Sadly, popular publications hardly go out of their way to point this out (although I feel they really ought to). There's a place for popularizing science, but people should now the respective statuses of publications.

    That said, I wouldn't worry about an MSNBC article about reputed dangers as much either. I'm sure if you consult the original source (which I will; don't have the time now ;-) their conclusions regarding real-world implications won't be nearly as far-reaching. Science journalists have a way of making scientists make broad and unsupported conclusions they would never make in publications.

    tl;dr Science is good, regardless of source (ideally). Be careful with popular media's reports about science.
     

    sherid

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    May 25, 2008
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    Hi all - need your help.

    Apparently it was all over the internet yesterday about "3rd Hand Smoke" dangers. Granted, it was talking about actual analog smoking and its residue that lies on carpets, clothes and lingers in the air and how they managed to determine its harmful effects especially to babies and small children.

    This raised a concern to my lifetime NON-smoking husband. He thinks this concern also applies to e-cig nic vaporers because we are also blowing out nicotine molecules . This leaves residue as well. i,.e, matter cannot be destroyed theory albeit, the vaper is not induced by fire; however, vapor is vapor.

    Before now, he was very tolerant of me vaping; however, he has been noticing that I'm vaping more than when I started 2+ months ago and now he's "smelling" the vaper. He is concerned that my vaping nicotine has will have the same effect as regular smoking in the air he breathes. What argument can I give him on this that is factual ? Are there any articles out there that confirms that "e-cigarette vapor" is safe on others other than what we find on the Supplier's websites?

    Being a 30+ yr smoker that found a way to quit 3 months ago, this newsflash report did not make me happy. If there is a health risk for him, I will vape outside but I want a valid reason for me to have to do that rather than pondering this theory. More importantly, will this article extend to also include e-cigarettes soon?

    Your thoughts and agruments are welcomed.

    Here's an excerpt from the MSNBC.msn.com site:

    "Our study shows that when this residual nicotine reacts with ambient nitrous acid it forms carcinogenic tobacco-specific nitrosamines or TSNAs," Destaillats said. "TSNAs are among the most broadly acting and potent carcinogens present in unburned tobacco and tobacco smoke."
    Unvented gas appliances are the main source of nitrous acid indoors.
    The researchers used cellulose as a model of indoor material, and exposed it to cigarette smoke. They then exposed it to a "high but reasonable" concentration of nitrous acid for three hours. The levels of newly formed TSNAs were 10 times higher after the nitrous acid exposure. The TSNAs also formed quickly, the researchers found.
    "Given the rapid sorption and persistence of high levels of nicotine on indoor surfaces, including clothing and human skin, our findings indicate that third-hand smoke represents an unappreciated health hazard through dermal exposure, dust inhalation and ingestion," said lead author Mohamad Sleiman, also of Berkeley Lab.

    Read this analysis of the study for some eye-openers.
    * The researchers used concentrations of nitrous acid 14 times higher than would be found in a normal environment

    * Even at the unrealistic levels found in the experiment, there is no evidence that such doses are harmful to humans

    * The main TSNA produced is not a carcinogen

    * The weakest results were found in the real-life conditions, with measurements barely exceeding detectable levels in the smallest conceivable workplace of a heavy smoker

    * Any effect from the TSNAs is negligible compared to the effects of the nitrous acid itself


    Velvet Glove, Iron Fist: The thirdhand smoke scam
     

    VapinDove

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    I will use your reply for my rebuttal and it gives me peace of mind.

    I think the visual of vaporing scares some people that they "must" be getting the aftereffects of what you're doing in vaping. A psychological reaction of sorts.

    I mentioned to him that the PG is also a germicide used in some hospitals (which I did read) so perhaps he can look at it as me cleaning the air he breathes. lol. I know...far fetched.
     

    sherid

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    I will use your reply for my rebuttal and it gives me peace of mind.

    I think the visual of vaporing scares some people that they "must" be getting the aftereffects of what you're doing in vaping. A psychological reaction of sorts.

    I mentioned to him that the PG is also a germicide used in some hospitals (which I did read) so perhaps he can look at it as me cleaning the air he breathes. lol. I know...far fetched.

    Be sure to read all of the analysis at Christopher Snowden's site. He is extremely respected. Also, check out any of Dr. Siegel's posts on his blog at The Rest of the Story: Tobacco News Analysis and Commentary
     

    logbas34

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    the way I see it is this. every time you vape, blow the vapor at a mirror the same mirror btw for a while, and see if any residue is left over. my guess is none but if there is well maybe this does need to be looked into more. but most importantly they were talking about TSNA's which are carcinogens, nicotine is not a carcinogen so even if he was breathing it in, he'd probably just sneak a few hits off the e-cig -:)
     
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