4000 cycle 21700?

[bombastinator]

Silicon Valley is in the spot light only because of the juggernaut companies that reside there that were at the forefront of technology decades ago. They have become household names therefore in the public view they are leaders of tech. However, Silicon Valley is no longer a leader in innovation (to an extent). Companies such as Apple, Google, Cisco and M$ are in a position to consume innovative companies rather than compete against them. They slap their branding on new tech they just purchased and call it their own.

It was Foxconn that opened a factory in the US to which would have cater to many tech companies and not just Apple. In the public’s eye, Foxconn is nothing more than an OEM manufacture, but that is far from the truth. They are also a technology partner that vastly contributes to the design and innovation of the latest and greatest tech trends. An iPhone is just as much a Foxconn design as it is Apple.

they did kind of need to learn the hard way though. A lot of us/eu electronics design go to foxcon for manufacture but are altered there, frequently for the worse. The apple power supply was one such. The manufacturers found cable strain arresters to be annoying so they faked them and a whole bunch of apple power supplies died in mere months. All from breakage at the plug and base of the wall wart where the strain arrestors would have saved them. There was a giant lawsuit. Apple is still paying out on that one and they’re still unhappy about it. Apple and many manufacturers have to completely go over new designs and fix problems created by “cost efficiencies”. One would assume foxcon is learning from this.

The same issue is seen in lowball Chinese vaping stuff. Chinese manufacturers are slowly learning that people don’t buy stuff twice when it falls apart on them if they have any kind of choice, and they usually do. It’s nothing that didn’t happen to US and EU manufacturers in the last century. We often think of old products as being high quality, but what that really means is surviving old products are of high quality.

One day there will likely be a gigantic smok lawsuit. It should have happened already really, but smok manages to hide behind international boundary confusion while selling shoddy products. It won’t last forever.

 

[bombastinator]

You're right. What started under the presidency of G.W Bush has become even more clear since the election of Donald Trump. There is no "us" anymore, because the U.S is seen as an oppressive force that conducts aggressive wars for more than dubious reasons rather than being an democratic ally.
Mistakes have been made on both sides of the pond for sure, but the actual trade war between the U.S and its former democratic partners in the Nato boils down to one sad truth.
The U.S industry isn't capable of offering anything of worth to the worldmarket anymore except for two things. Weapons and agricultural products.
We as allies don't need either, so the U.S has begun to create markets for its only exports and acts as a warmonger that joyfully watches as the world burns.
Well done.

I would argue that that particular sea change started under Regan, at the primary impetus of Rupert Murdoch, who is still leading the charge and has brought the world such wonderments as brexit and European fascism. Jr. Bush and Trump are merely the most recent results of the GOP discovery that the use of presidents with serious personality flaws creates executive offices incapable of making decisions and thus allowing control by the more selfish sections of the 1%. Something that group has sought for over 100 years ever since they were blocked by the advent of communism which was designed mostly to fight them in the first place.
Most republican presidents before Regan saw how much serious damage the group would do if their policies were followed and fought them. So they discovered the secret of incompetent leadership. Now they’re off the chain, and the world as a whole is suffering much as it did in the guilded age which was the last time they had control.

 

[Robin Becker]

One day there will likely be a gigantic SMOK lawsuit. It should have happened already really, but SMOK manages to hide behind international boundary confusion while selling shoddy products. It won’t last forever.

Frankly...I don´t know who is the fool who still buy their products?! The first time I had one of their mods in my hand, I thought it would be a disposable one...

 

[classwife]

...let's leave the political stuff out of here

 

[Mooch]

Watching a vid on Tesla and Elon just said that they have and already using 4000 cycle batteries he didn't say it was 21700 but as far as i know this are the batteries they switched to from 18650.
Here is a link if you want to see he talks about it a 2:17
Also he said that all the new cars gonna have a 1000000 mile battery life and said that it needs to be recharged every 250 miles so again 4000 cycle life, and in the cars it's 21700 for sure.

Several thousand cycles is easy with almost any Li-Ion battery when you severely limit how far it is charged, how far down it is discharged, and actively cool/heat it as necessary to extend overall life. Automotive battery packs are incredibly expensive so they go to great lengths to try to extend the battery life by limiting how the batteries are used, reducing stress as much as possible.

We can get HUGE increases in the life of the batteries we use for vaping by charging to 4.05V or lower (really reducing their run time), never discharging below 3.2V or so, never letting them get more than a bit warm or cool, and never using them at above 1/2 of their current rating or lower. Often not very practical for us though.

 

[Rossum]

Several thousand cycles is easy with almost any Li-Ion battery when you severely limit how far it is charged, how far down it is discharged, and actively cool/heat it as necessary to extend overall life. Automotive battery packs are incredibly expensive so they go to great lengths to try to extend the battery life by limiting how the batteries are used, reducing stress as much as possible.

We can get HUGE increases in the life of the batteries we use for vaping by charging to 4.05V or lower (really reducing their run time), never discharging below 3.2V or so, never letting them get more than a bit warm or cool, and never using them at above 1/2 of their current rating or lower. Often not very practical for us though.

Yep! That's exactly what VW/Audi does on with the packs in their "GTE" hybrid drivetrain. Those packs are composed of a 96S string of large-format cells totalling 8.8 kWh. The BMS considers them "full" at just over 4V (4.01-4.02V) and "empty" at between 3.55 and 3.58V. Keeping them in that range is what gives the company the confidence to warranty those packs for eight years.

BTW, there's a bunch of misinformation about Tesla batteries early in this thread.

 

[Leo Bak]

No one mentioned the regulated hydrogen mod in this discussion.

Sadly since Sony's Lion batteries hit the market in the early 90ies, very little progression has been made, despite the masssive amounts of money that has been spent on research.

And eventhough batteries will remain important for most mobile devices and (vape)gear for now (a future lithium-ion battery with a lithium-metal anode, a solid-dust electrolyte and a cathode of lithium-air, could store five to seven times more energy but then we'd have reached the chemical limit for a (compact) battery, i recently read in a Dutch article), they might not be the long-term solution for transporting humans or heavy-power consuming industries.

Of course the cheap Chinese batterydriven electric cars are about to enter the global markets (possibly not the US market lol), but in the (near) future hydrogen fueled electric vehicles could be a good solution. Storing renewable energy is becoming very important, and one way to do that is to store it in hydrogen, instead of polluting, rare-earth metal dependant, non or partially recycleable batteries.

For now, don't fully charge your batteries, don't hit them hard (become a tootle puffer) to increase your battery cycles from 500 to perhaps 1000.

 

[Electrodave]

Another thing nobody seems to have mentioned is where large amounts of hydrogen come from. Hydrogen is, of course, abundant in petroleum, and is relatively easy to refine. Water is a very stable molecule, and doesn't give up its hydrogen molecule easily. Hydrocarbons are very long, unstable molecules, so it is much easier to liberate the hydrogen from them. The hydrogen that sits in those huge tanks came from petroleum.

 

[Rossum]

The hydrogen that sits in those huge tanks came from petroleum

Actually, natural gas (which is primarily methane, the simplest hydrocarbon possible) is what most commercial hydrogen is made from. But doing that produces just as much CO2 as burning the methane to begin with would, however to total conversion efficiency from methane to usable energy is lower than just burning the methane, so using hydrogen made that way as a fuel makes no sense at all, except perhaps in rocket engines.

If you want hydrogen that's "environmentally friendly", you have to make it from water, and doing that intrinsically requires enough to break the bonds that hold a water molecule together. This is inevitably more energy than you will get out when you recombine the hydrogen with oxygen.

 

[Electrodave]

It would be more environmentally friendly to just burn the methane in car engines. UPS and Xcel Energy, among others, have long had fleets that used natural gas.

 

[bombastinator]

No one mentioned the regulated hydrogen mod in this discussion.

Sadly since Sony's Lion batteries hit the market in the early 90ies, very little progression has been made, despite the masssive amounts of money that has been spent on research.

And eventhough batteries will remain important for most mobile devices and (vape)gear for now (a future lithium-ion battery with a lithium-metal anode, a solid-dust electrolyte and a cathode of lithium-air, could store five to seven times more energy but then we'd have reached the chemical limit for a (compact) battery, i recently read in a Dutch article), they might not be the long-term solution for transporting humans or heavy-power consuming industries.

Of course the cheap Chinese batterydriven electric cars are about to enter the global markets (possibly not the US market lol), but in the (near) future hydrogen fueled electric vehicles could be a good solution. Storing renewable energy is becoming very important, and one way to do that is to store it in hydrogen, instead of polluting, rare-earth metal dependant, non or partially recycleable batteries.

For now, don't fully charge your batteries, don't hit them hard (become a tootle puffer) to increase your battery cycles from 500 to perhaps 1000.

Both technologies have their own environmental problems. Neither is perfect, either short or long term. With hydrogen the problem is hydrogen can’t really be contained well. There are always losses and those losses are gone from the earth. Free hydrogen actually escapes the atmosphere and leaves the planet.

 

[Rossum]

Free hydrogen actually escapes the atmosphere and leaves the planet.

It does, which is why there's no free hydrogen to be found on earth to use as a fuel. But the fact that if it escapes, it's gone forever doesn't really matter. I just don't see us running out of hydrogen that can be liberated from other compounds, like water.

 

[jandrew]

It does, which is why there's no free hydrogen to be found on earth to use as a fuel. But the fact that if it escapes, it's gone forever doesn't really matter. I just don't see us running out of hydrogen that can be liberated from other compounds, like water.

Apparently, hydrogen negatively impacts the ozone layer on it's way out as well. Still, hydrogen could work in a large scale solar facility where they can invest in proper containment --- divert some solar energy to make hydrogen from seawater (Scientists can turn regular seawater into hydrogen fuel) to use as a powerbank, then when the isn't shining, use the hydrogen to make up the power deficit.

 

[bombastinator]

It does, which is why there's no free hydrogen to be found on earth to use as a fuel. But the fact that if it escapes, it's gone forever doesn't really matter. I just don't see us running out of hydrogen that can be liberated from other compounds, like water.

Point. There is a lot of hydrogen currently. We used to have a lot of oil too though. No one thought that would run out either. Both directions are being explored and I think that is a good thing. Hydrogen DOES have potentially more long term promise. It does have more short term issues though. It’s just harder to handle, the equipment to manipulate it is larger, and creating a distribution system is more difficult. I suspect one day hydrogen will eclipse chemical batteries. There’s a lot of undefined when though. It hasn’t happened yet. Research does need to be kept up though. Hydrogen isn’t as ready for prime time as chemical batteries are, but that day may come.

 

[Rossum]

We used to have a lot of oil too though. No one thought that would run out either.

Huh? During the first "energy crisis" (around 1973-1974) there were plenty of people who predicted we'd run out by the year 2000.

Hydrogen DOES have potentially more long term promise. It does have more short term issues though. It’s just harder to handle, the equipment to manipulate it is larger, and creating a distribution system is more difficult.

Agreed.

But there are also use-cases right now for which battery-powered cars would be unacceptable. My runs up and down the east coast are a prime example. I am not gonna waste four or more hours along the way waiting for my car to re-charge.

 

[mimöschen]

Actually, natural gas (which is primarily methane, the simplest hydrocarbon possible) is what most commercial hydrogen is made from. But doing that produces just as much CO2 as burning the methane to begin with would, however to total conversion efficiency from methane to usable energy is lower than just burning the methane, so using hydrogen made that way as a fuel makes no sense at all, except perhaps in rocket engines.

If you want hydrogen that's "environmentally friendly", you have to make it from water, and doing that intrinsically requires enough to break the bonds that hold a water molecule together. This is inevitably more energy than you will get out when you recombine the hydrogen with oxygen.

Cheap and clean: Australian company creates hydrogen with near-zero emissions

 

[Robin Becker]

Huh? During the first "energy crisis" (around 1973-1974) there were plenty of people who predicted we'd run out by the year 2000.

It is all about the power of innovation and technology...at the 70ies people were not able to "find" the amounts of oil, that are still available...also fracking was at that time unknown.
Maybe one day we will be able to use Co2 in a cost effective way as a source for other processes, or products? That would help us a lot to keep our planet clean...

 

[madstabber]

I was just reading the new Tesla long range S has a range of 370 miles which would work for 90+% people on a daily basis. Also interesting was they said they are developing a battery in secret so they won’t have to keep buying them from Panasonic. Hopefully Panasonic doesn’t read this post because I don’t want to be the one to ruin the relationship between Tesla and Panasonic. This battery development lab is in Fremont, CA so if Panasonic keeps driving by the factory and blowing up the phones there then they found out. Nevertheless it will be interesting to see what Tesla comes up with.

 

[Rossum]

I was just reading the new Tesla long range S has a range of 370 miles which would work for 90+% people on a daily basis.

90% of those who can afford the ~$100k price tag.

 

[madstabber]

90% of those who can afford the ~$100k price tag.

Yes but with the tax credit you can knock a couple thousand off that. Then when you hop in and let it drive you around, chances are you’ll never even have to make a payment. Just make sure your life insurance is paid up.