510 charger

[oldjoe]

I got a USB charging cable from a friend that he said was a standard 510 charging cable and I have used it for about 3 weeks on standard 510 batteries with no problems.
I used it on one my new Riva 510's (that I didn't get the charging cable with) and I thought it charged it pretty fast, about 3 hrs. on a pretty used up charge, so I took the time to look at the markings on the cable. It says, Input 5V 500Ma-Output 4.2V 420Ma which I believe the is standard for the Ego/Riva 510 charger. I won't have the Riva cable until the end of the week so I can't compare them at this time. Could someone verify what the difference is between the standard 510 and the Ego/Riva 510 charging cables?

 

[Cee_Jay]

420ma charger is for the Riva/eGo batteries. A Riva will not fit into a regular 510 charger without modifying the chargers case, or using an adapter; although it will charge the batt - just takes a lot longer.

 

[oldjoe]

I'm referring to a USB cable charger not a PCC. I was under the impression that a Ego/Riva 510 charger would do harm to standard 510 batteries yet I have been using said charger to charge standard 510 batteries for a good 3 weeks and none have failed. That is why I was questioning the charger I have. It does say 420Ma output.

 

[Cee_Jay]

If the USB cable charger you are using is 420ma output it probably says eGO USB charger on it. If you charge regular 510 batts using that you are asking for trouble. 420ma output EXCEEDS the capability of a regular 510 batt and overcharging could have serious consequences beyond ruining the battery.

 

[oldjoe]

Refer to Post #3: *I have been using said charger to charge standard 510 batteries for a good 3 weeks and none have failed.*
Therein lies my original query about the actual output of a Ego type charger.
Mine does say 420Ma output on a label that appears to be original and unaltered and did charge a Riva 510 in the time that I have come to understand is normal yet it has apparently done no harm to the standard 510 batteries.

 

[Cee_Jay]

That's the part that is SCARY. Lithium batteries should be charged at 1C or less. The eGo charger is charging your 510 batt at 2.3C If you must continue using it, please enclose the battery in a fireproof container when charging, preferably outdoors on a non-flammable surface. If (when) it blows it's gonna stink bad at best.

Good source of information - batteryuniversity.com

 

[oldjoe]

I'll keep that in mind. I have two more Riva 510 kits on order and they should be here by weeks end. When they arrive I will not be using the standard 510's any more. I'll give them to someone who wants to try e-gigs and I will get a standard 510 charger to go with them.

 

[oldjoe]

Could someone tell me what the Volts & Ma output of the standard Joye 510 charger actually is?

 

[Cee_Jay]

Standard 510 charger is 4.2v & 150ma.

 

[oldjoe]

Thank you. I am still baffled at the standard 510 batteries not having any issues with the 420Ma charger I'm using. I charged two this morning and they do not get anywhere near warm.

 

[Cee_Jay]

The best outcome from charging higher than a 1C rate will be shortened life-span for the battery, fewer useable cycles.

The worse outcome has yet to be determined.

 

[mdocod]

If the cells in a 510 are only capable of a maximum 1C charge rate, then I would have to assume that we are assuming that they are a LiCo chemistry cells, in which case, the discharge rate of ~8C should be the far more alarming consideration here. Considering how many 510s there are out there...

So... Are 510 batteries LiCo (ICR) chemistry?

I would think they would use IMR chemistry cells for the tiny ecigs. Since any LiCo cell in that type of application would be a huge liability. If they are IMR cells, then the 2C charge rate wouldn't be that bad.

 

[Cee_Jay]

" If the cells in a 510 are only capable of a maximum 1C charge rate,......."

It's not a matter of 'capability', any battery can be overcharged but it's certainly not recommended.
Lots of info on the link provided in post #6. Specific to LiIo charging may be found HERE.

 

[mdocod]

Hi Cee_Jay,

For li-ion cells, overcharging has nothing to do with rate, it has to do with how high the state of charge is brought, which is correlated to cell voltage. Charging a cell at too fast a rate has nothing to do with whether or not it will be overcharged. A cell can be dramatically over-charged even at a very very slow rate if the charger fails to terminate properly.

The article you have linked to is speaking specifically of safe charging practices for Lithium Cobalt chemistry cells. If the cell inside of a 510 is indeed a Lithium Cobalt cell, then I find it very interesting that we would be having a highlighted discussion about whether a 2C charge rate is safe or not (double the theoretical maximum safe rate), when the discharge rate of the 510 device on these cells would easily be 4X the maximum safe rate if they are indeed LiCo chemistry cells.

Either we have an elephant in the room, or we don't. If the 510 batteries are indeed LiCo chemistry, then there are much bigger problems with this picture than someone charging the cell at 2C. I'm not saying that anyone should charge a LiCo cell at 2C, I am saying that we need to know if these are LiCo chemistry cells. If they are, then we should be running around the forum with a very large flag screaming DANGER DANGER DANGER in all directions until the entire community is aware of the massive defective and unsafe product that a 510 is. It doesn't matter how safe the charging rate and algorithm is, if a LiCo cell is repeatedly discharged at 8C, it will become unstable and unsafe. If they are IMR chemistry cells, then there isn't a significant problem, and I would argue that charging at 2C is also not a major concern either.

So... Do we know what chemistry these cells are? Are we ignoring an elephant here?

Eric

 

[Cee_Jay]

Here's the link spelled out -
h t t p://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_lithium_ion_batteries

Generally 510 batts are LiIo, although some are LiPo. Check the specifications for the product you have.

I'm unaware of any manufacturing specifying the discharge rate on e-cig batteries, most likely since the circuitry (PWM) involved renders that data useless.

 

[mdocod]

Hello Cee-Jay,

The batteryuniversity link is not accurate for all chemistries that fall under the umbrella of the term "lithium-ion." The instructions can be accurate for many cells out there, but they were almost certainly written specific to modern LiCoO2 chemistry cells.

The following link points out a bigger picture, of the many possible cathode materials that can be used in a "li-ion" cell. Please see paragraph 8.
Understanding lithium-ion

LiCo, LiMn, LiFePO4, LiPo, are ALL li-ion. Some are charged to 3.6V, some to 3.8V, some to 4.1V, some to 4.2V, some to 4.3V. Some have a maximum recommended charge rate of 0.3C, some have a maximum charge rate of 5C, everything in-between and some even higher. The batteryuniversity link for li-ion charging is relevant to only a very specific group of li-ion cells.

Here's a li-ion cell with a maximum charge rate of about 2C
Rechargeable Batteries & Battery Chargers - 3.6V 1300mAh LiFePO4 Rechargeable Battery

Here's a li-ion cell with a maximum charge rate of about 5C
http://www.molicel.com/ca/pdf/IMR18650E.pdf

How about a 4.35V charging voltage?
Li-ion 18650 Cells (up to 3000mAh)
(see the Samsung 3000mAH cell, see same link again for Sony high rate cell listed further down that should only be charged to 4.1V)

---------------------------------

A PWM circuit does not render any data useless about the cell behind the circuit. It is very easy to calculate the effective load on the cell. Knowing whether the cell can safely deliver the load is important.

I can't imagine why anyone would have listed a 510 as being a LiPo chemistry cell. Lithium Polymer (which still generally uses a Lithium Cobalt or Lithium Manganese chemistry cathode and is also a "li-ion" cell) is not really ideal for building cylindrical cell shapes. LiPo Cells are generally going to be pouch or prismatic shapes. I think it is safe to assume that any listing of a 510 that says "LiPo" is likely false. (call it bad translation, or a lack of understanding on the sellers part).

We know that a 510 is a li-ion cell, this is not in question. The question is "WHICH li-ion chemistry is used?" I don't know the answer to this but have tried searching for the answer to this. We can not know what a safe charging rate for the cell really is until we have a data sheet for the cell. If we knew the cathode material, we could look at other similar cell types and at least make some educated guesses.

I would personally not buy or use any ecig without knowing the cell chemistry of the device.

Eric

 

[Cee_Jay]

Simple enough - take one apart - standard 510's don't fill my ticket.

eGo & Riva 510's generally use THESE

OP wanted to know the difference - The manufacturer suggests NOT using an eGo charger on a standard 510 as doing so may destroy it - Good enough for me.