kinabaloo, sure, tin is of some concern und and should have qualified my "non hazardous" statement, thanks for correction. My point, was that the mobilization of tin (afaik: not bioaccumulative, not carcinogen, not associated to birth effects, the least hazardeous among possible solder materials) could well be the symptom of a bigger problem. Lets hope for now that the lead-free solder is what it is supposed to be. Without analyses, mash or solder could well be the source of tin, and so its good to have them both on the list.
901 atomizer disassembly
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Better mention that the tin-containing carbon-gunked coil was
created with the metal-mesh removed.
i.e. the solder was definitely the source in that case.
Guess there might still be non-nickel elements in the mesh tho.,
but can't see them getting into the juice realistically (?)
created with the metal-mesh removed.
i.e. the solder was definitely the source in that case.
Guess there might still be non-nickel elements in the mesh tho.,
but can't see them getting into the juice realistically (?)
A comment on previous two posts: tin from mesh could be via nreak-off of metal fir or acidic dissolution. but since you mentioned the test without mesh, I;d say the solder does indeed look te likely suspect.
And ou realised before I jumped in - the degrading of the solder is quire alarming! Howeber, though i did postulate this befoe as a reason why the coil fails, that is not backed up by evidence. On the other hand, if juices were 'cleaner', this might become the new limiting factor.
4% of the deposit being tin is extraordinary !
Solder is never normally exposed to liquids.
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ps: i keep meaning to test this but haben't so far - the conductivit of the huice; would vary of course. The voltage might not be so high but the crrent is.
Ezcuse typos - typing in dark (trying to get sleepy)
and too much chabrolet sec
Ezcuse typos - typing in dark (trying to get sleepy)
and too much chabrolet sec
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& Jet lag?
Me too, sleepy I mean (& too many whiskey tots),
in fact I'd better stop now, if I want to get up sometime today.
Me too, sleepy I mean (& too many whiskey tots),
in fact I'd better stop now, if I want to get up sometime today.
lol
done the trip to beijing so many times that those 11 hours seem like a bus ride now. That's not EasyJet - still can get plenty of red on board
An atomic analysis of the metal mesh and solder (XPS analysis),
ignoring carbon & oxygen content, i.e just the ratio of metals:
Metal Foam Mesh
99% Nickel
1% Tin
Pretty much a straight nickel metal foam as predicted.
Standard Solder (of a type I happen to have)
58% Lead
42% Tin
Silver Solder (of a type I happen to have)
80% Silver
10% Copper
10% Zinc
Lead Free Solder (plumbers, of a type I happen to have)
100% Tin
Atomizer Solder (after heavy heat cleanings)
83% Tin
7% Potassium
6% Silver
4% Nickel
Not sure if the potassium is just a surface contaminant, or a mis-identified peak.
Look like a type of cheap silver solder, & no lead which is good.
Should really do the last one again on a brand new atomizer
(when I have a need to dissect a fresh one again).
edit: the forum's fast & furious tonight, just posted this & it's on the 2nd page already!
ignoring carbon & oxygen content, i.e just the ratio of metals:
Metal Foam Mesh
99% Nickel
1% Tin
Pretty much a straight nickel metal foam as predicted.
Standard Solder (of a type I happen to have)
58% Lead
42% Tin
Silver Solder (of a type I happen to have)
80% Silver
10% Copper
10% Zinc
Lead Free Solder (plumbers, of a type I happen to have)
100% Tin
Atomizer Solder (after heavy heat cleanings)
83% Tin
7% Potassium
6% Silver
4% Nickel
Not sure if the potassium is just a surface contaminant, or a mis-identified peak.
Look like a type of cheap silver solder, & no lead which is good.
Should really do the last one again on a brand new atomizer
(when I have a need to dissect a fresh one again).
edit: the forum's fast & furious tonight, just posted this & it's on the 2nd page already!
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Nice work Exo.
A very high tin content solder used in the attys - pehaps chosen for a higher melting point; will be very interesting to compare a new solder with the used one to see if any tin leakage is detectable (might be too small %wise to show up but you never know).
The potassium might be from the juice - just dry residue or via some electrochemical reacton; or a mis-identify, as you said.
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Mentioned before that metal 'whiskers' might be the mechanism by which tin gets from the solder to the coil deposit. Was looking into this again now that we know that the solde used is high-tin. Tin, it seems, has a propensity to form whiskers.
Some further info on this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whisker_(metallurgy)
One alternative mechansm is galvanic corrosion.
Some further info on this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whisker_(metallurgy)
One alternative mechansm is galvanic corrosion.
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Just a thought: I wonder if the 'new atty taste' (bad taste) might be due to remnants of solder flux ...
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Interesting results (and good to know that lead was not detected). I guess that the XPS analyses represent the uppermost nm of as-exposed surfaces from an atomizer that had been in use (?). I wonder where Sn of the mesh analysis is coming from. Perhaps another indication of solder migration? One might like to test if Sn shows up in a bulk analyses, obtained on an internal, unexposed, newly broken surface. Similarly, regarding the atomizer solder data: I wonder if Ni has been part of the Ni-Ag solder alloy. Might indicate precipitation of Ni, previously dissolved from mesh or coil, if analyses of a fresh surface / the bulk solder would turn out to be negative.
Migrating metals pose some problems. Cant help, but the solder blobs appear much like a design flaw. Is there some principle reason why the solder has to be there, or couldnt the connection be made by crimping? Are there any possible disadvantages if the solder would be eliminated (the Sn alloy might function like a sacrificial anode)?
Migrating metals pose some problems. Cant help, but the solder blobs appear much like a design flaw. Is there some principle reason why the solder has to be there, or couldnt the connection be made by crimping? Are there any possible disadvantages if the solder would be eliminated (the Sn alloy might function like a sacrificial anode)?
"the Sn alloy might function like a sacrificial anode" - perhaps, and that's what I meant by galvanic corroson.
Interesting, yes, that 1% tin in the mesh might be migrated tin; if so, if shows again that the loss of tin from the solder is substantial. If tin whiskers is the reason, or corosion, the heat (and perhaps current too) seem likely to enhance the process.
I have thought about crimping before, but the join must be very very good (low resistance, well under 1 ohm) so perhaps not workable.
Under a microscope it looks like a mesh made from NiChrome. It burns to temperature like it and produces similar resistance. "Similar" because pulling out a straight wire is impossible, but you can tear it up etc. and create a small coil.
The one mesh that was accurately analyzed was 99% nickel.
Are you sure you achieved 1 ohm or greater with a narroe length of mesh?
Well, 13 days into using my 901 and I think my atty just fried itself. I'm attempting some of the posted cleaning techniques here to try and revive it before I try taking it apart. If I learn anything, I'll post it here.
(BTW, have you folks been getting server error issues on this forum?)
Edit:
Tried a combo of coffee maker cleaning solution, hydrogen peroxide and rubbing alcohol. My atty is deadsville.
(BTW, have you folks been getting server error issues on this forum?)
Edit:
Tried a combo of coffee maker cleaning solution, hydrogen peroxide and rubbing alcohol. My atty is deadsville.
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Your right the old analog meter just ain't what she used to be. But I guess since it's 99% Ni that makes me 99% right...?
But you sparked a connection for me by saying that... Nickel Mesh (i.e Inco Foam). I had not broken the think-box prior and stayed in the mind set of atomizer, electric, cartridge, etc... Maybe a little slow but just occured to me, this stuff holds liquid like a champ, the NiCr coil is just an oven to heat this stuff full of liquid... DUH! Just apply heat....
Here's what I did:
- tossed the battery
- pulled out the old trusted pipe
- gutted a couple atomizers
- packed the pipe bowl full of nickel foam
- doused with liquid (well 6 drops)
- lit a candle
- heat the bowl
Holy vape Batman....
Held the candle just far enough to not contact the foam directly and close enough to draw the flame when inhaling on the pipe to heat the nickel foam. The liquid is pretty ignitable so I had to blow it out a few times. If you ever own one of these pipes you know most are threaded or easily threaded, can definitely see the immediate possibilities for some creative add ons to supply heat and liquid.
Anyway, after several experiments - battery mods, voltage regulators, air flow regulators, carburater jets, venturi tubes, home spun NiCr coils, ceramics... etc. etc. etc. I've gone full circle in complexity, the old pipe, fire, and I guess the exception, Ni Foam.
Will have to experiment with some heat sources to tun this into a one hand process but in the meantime.. I'm digging this. Question now is, where the hell do you buy Nickel Foam....?? Though it appears the design of it seems more relevant then the material itself; it needs to hold liquid and tolerate enough heat to vaporize it. And of course, not produce any toxik by-product that we end up inhaling.
Stay tuned, I'll get a video of this going shortly.
Your right the old analog meter just ain't what she used to be. But I guess since it's 99% Ni that makes me 99% right...?
But you sparked a connection for me by saying that... Nickel Mesh (i.e Inco Foam). I had not broken the think-box prior and stayed in the mind set of atomizer, electric, cartridge, etc... Maybe a little slow but just occured to me, this stuff holds liquid like a champ, the NiCr coil is just an oven to heat this stuff full of liquid... DUH! Just apply heat....
Here's what I did:
- tossed the battery
- pulled out the old trusted pipe
- gutted a couple atomizers
- packed the pipe bowl full of nickel foam
- doused with liquid (well 6 drops)
- lit a candle
- heat the bowl
Holy vape Batman....
Held the candle just far enough to not contact the foam directly and close enough to draw the flame when inhaling on the pipe to heat the nickel foam. The liquid is pretty ignitable so I had to blow it out a few times. If you ever own one of these pipes you know most are threaded or easily threaded, can definitely see the immediate possibilities for some creative add ons to supply heat and liquid.
Anyway, after several experiments - battery mods, voltage regulators, air flow regulators, carburater jets, venturi tubes, home spun NiCr coils, ceramics... etc. etc. etc. I've gone full circle in complexity, the old pipe, fire, and I guess the exception, Ni Foam.
Will have to experiment with some heat sources to tun this into a one hand process but in the meantime.. I'm digging this. Question now is, where the hell do you buy Nickel Foam....?? Though it appears the design of it seems more relevant then the material itself; it needs to hold liquid and tolerate enough heat to vaporize it. And of course, not produce any toxik by-product that we end up inhaling.
Stay tuned, I'll get a video of this going shortly.
Sweet! Thanks.
Excellent information in that post!
http://www.thirdwave.de/3w/tech/mnt/metfoam_nickel.pdf
Thank you.
I had no idea that this stuff was used for so many other things.
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