A question about Serial/Parallel batteries, Amp limits and the Smok Alien..

[Noahian]

On a dual battery regulated mod, does it alter the limits of a single cell's amp rating if they are connected in series?

Are the batteries serially connected in smok alien?


I have been vaping on a smok Alien with a Baby beast/0.15 ohm coil on top and dual Sony VTC6's in for a couple of weeks, assuming that VTC6 has a better amp rating than VTC5 (which now i realised they do not ).. I was near 20A most of the time ( The amp reading on the display of the mod shows 20A ) but now i see that max recommended currency for VTC6 is 15A.. Was that in any way dangerous?

 

[DingerCPA]

I'm going to take a stab at this.

For REGULATED mods, Power IN = Power OUT. The batteries in the Alien are connected in Series. Double the voltage. Let's say you're starting out with fully charged cells - 4.2 * 2 = 8.4V. This is your INPUT voltage. Then, on the output side, you have 20A running 0.15Ω. Power OUT = I^2 * R = 20^2 * 0.15 = 60W

To figure out what current is being drawn on the input side 60W out has to equate to 60W in. So, Power = V * I => 60 = 8.4 * I. I (current) = 60/8.4 = 7.14A. Figure inefficiencies, and you're probably drawing closer to 8A = because it's Series, BOTH batteries are drawing 8A - should be plenty under their rated CDR

ETA - I'm hoping someone way smarter than I will confirm or correct this

 

[Noahian]

I'm going to take a stab at this.

For REGULATED mods, Power IN = Power OUT. The batteries in the Alien are connected in Series. Double the voltage. Let's say you're starting out with fully charged cells - 4.2 * 2 = 8.4V. This is your INPUT voltage. Then, on the output side, you have 20A running 0.15Ω. Power OUT = I^2 * R = 20^2 * 0.15 = 60W

To figure out what current is being drawn on the input side 60W out has to equate to 60W in. So, Power = V * I => 60 = 8.4 * I. I (current) = 60/8.4 = 7.14A. Figure inefficiencies, and you're probably drawing closer to 8A = because it's Series, BOTH batteries are drawing 8A - should be plenty under their rated CDR

ETA - I'm hoping someone way smarter than I will confirm or correct this

So now i am vaping with a 0.5 ohm build.. Voltage is 8.4V with dual IMR.. Output shows close to 10A... Power OUT = 10*10*0.5 = 50W

Which makes ( 50 = 8.4 * I ), where 'I' becomes 5,9A.. Say 6A.. Wow, thats pretty low..

That will make a huge impact on which battery i will go with..

Thanx a lot

Is there any practical phone software for this calculation?

 

[IMFire3605]

On a dual battery regulated mod, does it alter the limits of a single cell's amp rating if they are connected in series?

Are the batteries serially connected in SMOK alien?


I have been vaping on a Smok Alien with a Baby beast/0.15 ohm coil on top and dual Sony VTC6's in for a couple of weeks, assuming that VTC6 has a better amp rating than VTC5 (which now i realised they do not ).. I was near 20A most of the time ( The amp reading on the display of the mod shows 20A ) but now i see that max recommended currency for VTC6 is 15A.. Was that in any way dangerous?

Series Config in theory, 2X Voltage, Same Mah, Same CDR of a single battery
Sony VTC6 3000mah, 15amp CDR rated, 19amp CDR tested and verified by @Mooch, in the Alien voltage range is 2.8v lowest and 4.2v highest charge.
In Series these figures become, 3000mah, 19amp, 5.6v to 8.4v operating range.

There are 2 amp ratings when dealing with a regulated mod, input amps (pulled amps) to the control board, then output amps (amps pushed to the coils) from the control board, most mods show the amp push to the coils which can be figured just like an unregulated/mech mod
Voltage/Resistance (your Ohms)=Amps
Example using your 0.15ohm coil
3v/0.15ohm=20amps

Figuring the actual amp pull, which is the one you are most interested in, is quite simple on a regulated mod, it is just very simple Algebra needing these variables
Watts Set
Lowest Voltage Before the Mod Shuts Down
Mod Power/Chipset Efficiency, most chipsets on average use 10% power to function, leaving efficiency as 90% (or 0.9)

(Watts Set/Lowest Voltage)/0.9=Maximum amps the batteries need to supply
Example
(100watts/5.6v)/0.9=19.8413amps Need to be supplied

Parallel in theory, 2X Mah, 2X CDR, Same Voltage of single battery, but in principle practice those figures are 2xMah, 1.5X CDR, Same voltage
Your VTC6 again
6000mah, 28.5 CDR, 3.2v to 4.2v operating range
Same formula above, but we can add a little more accuracy on each battery, dividing by 2 the final amps
(100watts/5.6v)/0.9/2=9.9206amps

 

[bwh79]

In a regulated mod, series vs. parallel doesn't really matter much. The calculations are different, but the results are the same. Let's take an example. I'll use round numbers for ease of mental math. So let's say you have two batteries, each at 4.0 volts. You're vaping at 80 watts. (Resistance doesn't matter on a regulated mod. Note it's completely absent from the calculations below.)

If the batteries are wired in series, battery voltages are added together:

4.0v + 4.0v = 8.0v
80W / 8v = 10A

Batteries wired in series "feel" the full amp draw for each battery. The amp draw is 10A per battery. If, on the other hand, the batteries are wired in parallel, the voltage does not "stack" like this, and so the voltage is just the same as that of a single battery:

80W / 4v = 20A

However, batteries wired in parallel "split" the load evenly among all batteries. So the amp draw in this case is, still, 10A per battery.

 

[DingerCPA]

So now i am vaping with a 0.5 ohm build.. Voltage is 8.4V with dual IMR.. Output shows close to 10A... Power OUT = 10*10*0.5 = 50W

Which makes ( 50 = 8.4 * I ), where 'I' becomes 5,9A.. Say 6A.. Wow, thats pretty low..

That will make a huge impact on which battery i will go with..

Thanx a lot

Is there any practical phone software for this calculation?

I'm hoping for someone to step in and confirm before I spout off any more I'm not sure of any phone apps - I just learned Ohms and Watts Laws a ways back....

It's the "efficiencies" with which I struggle

 

[Imfallen_Angel]

Regulated mods have circuitry that regulates the power, in simple terms, they have a DC-DC conversions that pulls the power, adjusts and pushes it to the pin/tank.

Found these pages, excellent read that explains regulated mods.
Regulated mods – The Vaporist's Blog

Regulated mods – The Vaporist's Blog

So basically, unless you have a crappy battery, the mod's job is to deal with the power and there's not really much to worry about...

Otherwise, we'd hear about regulated mods popping all the time, and aside a bad battery or such (as in internal battery chemistry went bad), I've yet to see a regulated mod blow up or anything.

So that Amp reading you're seeing it's not the batteries' but the controller output.

Just don't use crappy or wrong (low drain) batteries and there's not much to worry about.

 

[Ryedan]

I'm going to take a stab at this.

For REGULATED mods, Power IN = Power OUT. The batteries in the Alien are connected in Series. Double the voltage. Let's say you're starting out with fully charged cells - 4.2 * 2 = 8.4V. This is your INPUT voltage. Then, on the output side, you have 20A running 0.15Ω. Power OUT = I^2 * R = 20^2 * 0.15 = 60W

To figure out what current is being drawn on the input side 60W out has to equate to 60W in. So, Power = V * I => 60 = 8.4 * I. I (current) = 60/8.4 = 7.14A. Figure inefficiencies, and you're probably drawing closer to 8A = because it's Series, BOTH batteries are drawing 8A - should be plenty under their rated CDR

ETA - I'm hoping someone way smarter than I will confirm or correct this

You got it DingerCPA , but you did it the hard way . I use the Steam Engine battery drain calculator .. faster for me and it doesn't make math mistakes like I do.

Your amp draw number per battery at 60 watt output from the mod is pretty close to what I get when I enter 8V (2 batts in series after a bit of voltage drop) into the calculator in the field for battery voltage. The thing is the amp draw on the batteries goes up as they discharge because their voltage output drops and the regulator makes up for it by drawing more amps to make the power set on the mod. At 6V the amp draw is 11A.

For parallel battery mods using 4V and 3V as battery voltage you get twice the amp draw, but that's split between the batteries so it's half each, or the same as with a series setup.

 

[halbgott]

"Resistance doesn't matter on a regulated mod"

Can understand this from the safety part, but does having a faster ramp up time conserve power on regulated devices?

 

[Zakillah]

Ramp up time does not correlate to resistance. Coil mass does.

 

[halbgott]

Ramp up does not correlate to resistance. Coil mass does.

I was just going to correct myself, I was thinking how thinner wires heat up faster and have high resistance.

 

[Imfallen_Angel]

"Resistance doesn't matter on a regulated mod"

Can understand this from the safety part, but does having a faster ramp up time conserve power on regulated devices?

Not really... and it's where temp control steps in with pulsing the power, which will conserve power against the ramping of wattage mode.

As wattage just pushes straight and the coil keeps getting hotter, the moment you press the trigger again, the coil gets hit by the full wattage, while with TC, it would limit the wattage as it would already measure the metal for the resistance balance/level.

 

[DingerCPA]

You got it DingerCPA , but you did it the hard way . I use the Steam Engine battery drain calculator .. faster for me and it doesn't make math mistakes like I do.

Your amp draw number per battery at 60 watt output from the mod is pretty close to what I get when I enter 8V (2 batts in series after a bit of voltage drop) into the calculator in the field for battery voltage. The thing is the amp draw on the batteries goes up as they discharge because their voltage output drops and the regulator makes up for it by drawing more amps to make the power set on the mod. At 6V the amp draw is 11A.

For parallel battery mods using 4V and 3V as battery voltage you get twice the amp draw, but that's split between the batteries so it's half each, or the same as with a series setup.

Thank you for confirming I'm pretty comfy with "straight-up" calcs - I kinda forget the Power(out) = Power(in), so if I force myself through that, I can make sure I grab all the numbers I need

 

[Noahian]

....
Just don't use crappy or wrong (low drain) batteries and there's not much to worry about.

This is where i dont get it..

The Alien is a popular Mod.. bundled with baby beast atomizer... T6 is one of their coils.. It is readily available on the market.. On the coil it says 'can be vaped between 40-130W, best at 70-90'..

And say i am running on dual Sony VTC6's, which are very nice batteries..

If i run happen to run them at lets say 110W, by the time the batteries voltage drops to 3 volts each, i will be getting a little over 20A from these batteries.. And they are rated CDR 15A by Sony, 19A by third party..

Now this is a scenario where i am using a decent mod, a popular atomizer, a commercially available coil from a well known brand, all of which are made by the same brand for each other ( even bundled together ), and plus i am running on a very praised battery... Yet i am exceeding the limits of my battery..

This is what gets me worried, and gets me i confused when i hear people say 'use a good battery and there's not much to worry about'..

Is there anything that i am missing? Is there something like 'well, in that scenario you should pull the trigger for at least a minute before you are in any kind of trouble and no one will continuously fire a coil for that long, even if you do your battery will be depleted before that minute is over anyway' ?

 

[Topwater Elvis]

55w / 3v = 18.3a
110w / 6v = 18.3a


Everyone has to set their own comfort zone/saftey limits for the cells we use.
Mine tend to be on the conservative/lower end of the following.
20a CDR cells 50w - 60w per cell.
25a CDR cells 60w - 75w per cell.
30a CDR cells 75w - 90w per cell.

 

[Imfallen_Angel]

oy.. people playing with numbers isn't really answering the OP's question...

Regulated mods adjust the power output...there is no math in regard the batteries, simply said, everyone should be using a 20A rated battery (preferably), and the control board will be fine.

This is why you can have mods that are outputting a range that the batteries aren't even close to being able to do without risks.

Can you put a 0.15ohm build on a single 20A battery and run it at 80 watts? yes, you can with some mods without issues (aside it's probably a terrible vaping experience).

In series, the math is that the max should be 160 but we have many that crosses the 200+W range... that's the thing about these controller boards, they pulse the batteries and push that amount of wattage, way beyond the batteries' true capacity.

Heck, my Parallel mods are able to go up to 120W...

Anyways.. the point is that the control board of a regulated mod does all the work, handles and modifies the power output, so in answer to the OP... there's no issues at all as long as you have a decent high drain battery with proper Amp rating.

For a 15Amp rated battery as per the VTC6 with a 0.4ohm resistance deck, if you're still worried and don't trust the board, just don't go over 110W and you'll be in a very fair range. Should you get 20Amp rated batteries, then stick to 160W maximum.

If you'd like to go higher wattage, just make higher resistance builds...
A 0.6 ohm would equal to 135W for 15Amp, while a 20A battery set would easily handle a 200W setting.

What it comes down to, you don't need to reach for the max wattage, just do proper coils that doesn't need crazy wattage... don't go with hanger wire, stick to 24-28 gauge range and you should be fine. And the less wattage, the longer the battery life anyways.

 

[Noahian]

I'm going to take a stab at this.

For REGULATED mods ...

Series Config in theory...

In a regulated mod, series vs. parallel ...

You got it DingerCPA , but you did it the...

Thanx for the wonderful info..

 

[Imfallen_Angel]

This is where i dont get it..

The Alien is a popular Mod.. bundled with baby beast atomizer... T6 is one of their coils.. It is readily available on the market.. On the coil it says 'can be vaped between 40-130W, best at 70-90'..

And say i am running on dual Sony VTC6's, which are very nice batteries..

If i run happen to run them at lets say 110W, by the time the batteries voltage drops to 3 volts each, i will be getting a little over 20A from these batteries.. And they are rated CDR 15A by Sony, 19A by third party..

Now this is a scenario where i am using a decent mod, a popular atomizer, a commercially available coil from a well known brand, all of which are made by the same brand for each other ( even bundled together ), and plus i am running on a very praised battery... Yet i am exceeding the limits of my battery..

This is what gets me worried, and gets me i confused when i hear people say 'use a good battery and there's not much to worry about'..

Is there anything that i am missing? Is there something like 'well, in that scenario you should pull the trigger for at least a minute before you are in any kind of trouble and no one will continuously fire a coil for that long, even if you do your battery will be depleted before that minute is over anyway' ?

I was actually providing you with the answer (see the post I just did).

What you are missing is that the circuit board is a DC to DC convertor... it takes in the voltage and amps from the battery and converts it on the fly to whatever settings you're using by pulsing the batteries. This happens at a micro-second capacity, so any "delay" between the pulsing, you can't see, feel them as the coil doesn't have time to cool down in this sort of time interval.

 

[Noahian]

I was actually providing you with the answer (see the post I just did).

What you are missing is that the circuit board is a DC to DC convertor... it takes in the voltage and amps from the battery and converts it on the fly to whatever settings you're using by pulsing the batteries. This happens at a micro-second capacity, so any "delay" between the pulsing, you can't see, feel them as the coil doesn't have time to cool down in this sort of time interval.

My sincerest thanks to you for your time.. I really got every question mark in my head covered..

 

[Imfallen_Angel]

My sincerest thanks to you for your time.. I really got every question mark in my head covered..

No problem, glad if I helped.

The only thing I can add is the question/mention of the "efficiency circuit" (in percentage).. basically it's the power "wasted" in this DC to DC conversion...

If you want to learn more about DC to DC convertors:


This one really explains the pulsing very well:


(Basically, this is how you can have a stun-gun/taser that uses a 9V battery and turn it into a 25,000V (or much higher) ( BUT only have between 2.5 and 4 milliamps).)

The circuits in the mod simply converts the 8.4 V of the batteries in series to a higher voltage range as per needed (as per your settings) and converts this voltage to wattage, which is much higher than what the batteries are capable on their own.

All that math the other guys are going with is important IF you're dealing with a mechanical mod that does nothing like this and simply feeds the batteries' power directly.