About mixing formulas and exactitude

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DaveP

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That settles it. Next DIY session I'm going to 12mg or more (from 3mg) nic strength and see what happens. I'm one that grabs my mod every time I move. I also get the sore thumb joint syndrome from vaping too often (1300 to 1500 12w tootle puffs a day on my puff counter).

I used to vape 90vg/10vg vendor juices at 24mg. I rolled that down to 70pg/30vg and then 60pg/40vg over the last couple of years doing DIY while lowering my nic gradually to 3mg. If I'm vaping more at low nic levels to achieve a low nic blood level I'm probably fooling myself. Might as well vape something that satisfies me for a while. I used to go a couple of hours servicing equipment in computer rooms before going outside to the break area for a couple of ultra light smokes.

I really miss being able to vape less and enjoy it more!
 
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stols001

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I chain vape, in the mornings or if I'm not occupied. It's becoming excellent motivation to become more occupied. Although, I'm pretty certain I'm still getting less nic than I was a 3 ppd because I can also go a fairly long time without vaping, or if I'm doing chores and whatnot, take vape breaks.

Anna
 

DaveP

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I chain vape, in the mornings or if I'm not occupied. It's becoming excellent motivation to become more occupied. Although, I'm pretty certain I'm still getting less nic than I was a 3 ppd because I can also go a fairly long time without vaping, or if I'm doing chores and whatnot, take vape breaks.

Anna

The puff counter on my new Eleaf Invoke is very readable on its OLED display. I'm noticing puff count more as a result. Since this time yesterday I'm up to 1344 puffs (3-5 seconds each). Upping nic will be a revealing undertaking. We'll see what happens.
 

go_player

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(Began as a reply in another part of the ECF forums; slightly modified here)
Mixing is good. My own e-juice calculator is just doing the calculations in my head (or with a standard calculator) with a few notes on paper. Because of this, I strive to end up with juice formulas as simple as I can make them. My current "formula" is two parts of a weak nic base mixed with one part of a stronger nic base. It's hard to get much more simple than that.

My own e-juice is very strong (65 mg/ml in 68/32 PG/VG), so yours might be something more like one part nic base, 4 parts PG and 5 parts VG. I find that the actual PG/VG ratio is really not very critical, so if you have found that you like mostly-VG juices, then probably anything between 60% and 80% VG will work for you. This lets you choose an easy-to-mix formula that ends up anywhere in that range.

Nicotine content is likely a little more critical, especially if you want fairly low amounts of nicotine. Still, if you are aiming for 12 mg/ml (for example) you will probably be able to use anything from 10 to 14 mg/ml (roughly plus or minus 15%). Again, this lets you choose a mixing formula that is less complicated than some "exact" formula that calls for mixing 13.243574 ml of PG plus 47.9846584 ml of VG and 4.73642 ml of nic base.

If you like e-juice that is mostly one or the other of PG or VG, consider getting your nic-base in the carrier that you want the least of in your final formula. For instance, if you want to end up with 10 mg/ml nicotine and 90% VG, get your nic base as 100 mg/ml nicotine in 100% PG. Then you would just have to mix one part of your nic base with nine parts VG, and voila! there is your e-juice with an easy to mix formula. You could use the same method to end up with 20 mg/ml nicotine and 80% VG by mixing at one to four.

My point is: it is MUCH more important to end up with a simple formula than it is to hit some exact PG/VG ratio and nic strength. For one thing it will make it MUCH less likely that you will make a mistake while mixing that means you have to toss a batch of juice, or (worse) maybe spend a few weeks wondering why vaping is not satisfying your nic craving (or maybe making you slightly nic-sick for those weeks).

As far as mixing by weight vs mixing by volume: PG, VG, and nicotine are all close enough to 1 gram/ml (SG of near 1.0) that it makes little difference, especially if you take my suggestion that exact ratios are fairly unimportant. What you are aiming for is a simple to mix formula that works for you. What do you care about exact numbers as long as you are satisfied by your result? And that you can mix it week after week, month after month, without making mistakes or sweating over amounts (or weights) too small to really matter.

I'm torn, because I agree with a lot of what you say (in ways that go beyond mixing juice,) but kind of disagree about some of it when it comes to mixing, at least in the general case (not disagreeing about how well it works in your specific case.)

First off, if you're mixing purely for yourself, by trial-and-error, with all flavors in PG and a consistent PG/VG ratio replicability will come down to the precision of your instruments, and the specific gravity of PG vs VG won't matter (the differences in specific gravity of different PG-based flavorings are inconsequential given the amounts used, so I won't mention them other than to discount them as a factor.)

That said, PG has a specific gravity close to 1.0, and VG has a specific gravity around 1.25. That's a not inconsequential difference, IMHO. Differences on that order might not usually make a recipe I love a recipe I hate, but they might well make a recipe I love one that I don't love so much. And because of certain threshold effects with flavorings that kind of discrepancy can occasionally mean the difference between love and hate.

And when we start to communicate about mixing we need a common language to communicate with, and for better or for worse we've decided on weight as that language, even when we mix by volume (not sure that was the best choice, in the face of varying PG/VG ratios. Measuring by volume might better reflect subjective experience there, but it's a very complicated question. I kind of doubt it matters much when going from 30/70 to, say, 50/50.)

I disagree that nic concentration is the more important factor here. You won't probably notice a 30% difference in nic- you'll just vape more or less and get the same amount of nic. Nicotine addicts are remarkably adept at titrating their nicotine intake. You _will_ notice ~30% differences in flavors though. What's tasty at 3% is often gross at 4%.

And finally, while I agree that consequential processes that make error likely should be avoided, mixing juice is a lot more like making biscuits than it is like running a nuclear power plant. I've mixed a lot of juice, I have a routine around it, and I can't recall the last time I really screwed it up. And if I did screw it up a bit, next time I mix, would there be any serious consequences? Nah- I'd just throw the 75 cents worth of ingredients down the sink.
 

ShowerHead

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I mix to 35/65 PG/VG 10mg.
Been doing this for a long time. Used to be at 18mg two years ago, then decided to see if I could cut the nic.
I could, but find that I am vaping too often. Same as a few others, mainly thumb pain. I may sneak my nic back to 14mg and see if that helps with the frequency. I'm down to 'comfortable' mods. My VT167s, Minikin Reborn are too big for comfortable all day use as a mod doesn't leave my hand for long. I'm definitely a DTL vaper, and love my Supreme V2 and its big brother, the Plus.
I wonder if changing my PG/VG ratio would help any? I used to run 50/50, but changed way back and don't even remember why. I think it was due to harshness/coughing and thought cutting the PG would help. And, I don't find it harsh or cough. Sounds like time to experiment.
 

Sugar_and_Spice

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That settles it. Next DIY session I'm going to 12mg or more (from 3mg) nic strength and see what happens. I'm one that grabs my mod every time I move. I also get the sore thumb joint syndrome from vaping too often (1300 to 1500 12w tootle puffs a day on my puff counter).

I used to vape 90vg/10vg vendor juices at 24mg. I rolled that down to 70pg/30vg and then 60pg/40vg over the last couple of years doing DIY while lowering my nic gradually to 3mg. If I'm vaping more at low nic levels to achieve a low nic blood level I'm probably fooling myself. Might as well vape something that satisfies me for a while. I used to go a couple of hours servicing equipment in computer rooms before going outside to the break area for a couple of ultra light smokes.

I really miss being able to vape less and enjoy it more!
I do hope that works for you but don't be too surprised if it doesn't. The reason I think that is because I just recently tried going from 3mg to 6mg(doubling my nic) and all I got is a bad headache. I tried vaping it 2 or 3 days and gave up on it. So be prepared to modify your behavior also or else it won't work. It did not make me want to vape any less. And you are going way beyond doubling your nic so be careful of feeling ill almost immediately from over-nic-ing. Just my 2 pennies. YMMV.

:)
 

DaveP

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I do hope that works for you but don't be too surprised if it doesn't. The reason I think that is because I just recently tried going from 3mg to 6mg(doubling my nic) and all I got is a bad headache. I tried vaping it 2 or 3 days and gave up on it. So be prepared to modify your behavior also or else it won't work. It did not make me want to vape any less. And you are going way beyond doubling your nic so be careful of feeling ill almost immediately from over-nic-ing. Just my 2 pennies. YMMV.

:)

There's probably a high vape count factor that's more habitual than a direct need for nic. I do know that my juice consumption at least doubled when I dropped down in steps from 24mg. It was easy to drop the nic from 24mg to 3mg in steps, but as I did I started to vape much more. I never really thought that I was vaping more nic, but I probably compensated as I dropped the nic levels by vaping more ML per day.

I'll find the sweet spot at higher nic levels and balance MG strength with ML use. I may just experiment with nic strength in a bottle of unflavored at first and see what happens. I vape unflavored as much as I vape flavored.
 

Sugar_and_Spice

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There's probably a high vape count factor that's more habitual than a direct need for nic. I do know that my juice consumption at least doubled when I dropped down in steps from 24mg. It was easy to drop the nic from 24mg to 3mg in steps, but as I did I started to vape much more. I never really thought that I was vaping more nic, but I probably compensated as I dropped the nic levels by vaping more ML per day.

I'll find the sweet spot at higher nic levels and balance MG strength with ML use. I may just experiment with nic strength in a bottle of unflavored at first and see what happens. I vape unflavored as much as I vape flavored.
I do wish you success. Maybe it would be better on your body if you approach it in the same manner you did when dropping the nic level. You did that in stages, correct? I have read people upping the nic levels successfully but it was usually done in much smaller amts such as 1-2% at a time over a longer period of time. It just sounded to me like you were going to throw your body immediately in over nic mode and since I had just tried doubling mine and knowing what I went through, well, it just seemed like I should issue some sort of warning.
Good luck to you and have a Happy New Year.

:)
 

DaveP

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I do wish you success. Maybe it would be better on your body if you approach it in the same manner you did when dropping the nic level. You did that in stages, correct? I have read people upping the nic levels successfully but it was usually done in much smaller amts such as 1-2% at a time over a longer period of time. It just sounded to me like you were going to throw your body immediately in over nic mode and since I had just tried doubling mine and knowing what I went through, well, it just seemed like I should issue some sort of warning.
Good luck to you and have a Happy New Year.

:)

Happy New Year to you, too!

I guess the tendency is to vape the same amount habitually at first instead of realizing there's going to be more nic in fewer puffs. I'm thinking that I'd sense the nic hit and adjust rapidly to the new level and vape frequency. At any rate, I can adjust quickly if the initial hit is too much. Half and half no-nic unflavored will bring it back in line if necessary. I'll just be mixing a 50ml test batch at first.

I think what I'm looking for is a level that satisfies without hitting it every 2 minutes and not really feeling the nic hit. I've been at 3mg/ml for a couple of years and chain vaping most of the time.

Back when I smoked red Marlboros and worked my way down to ultra lights I'd occasionally smoke a full flavor cig and get that buzzy feeling I wasn't used to. I was a pack a day smoker for a number of years with Red Marlboro. When I switched to ultra lights I became a 2 PAD smoker.
 
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ShowerHead

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There's probably a high vape count factor that's more habitual than a direct need for nic. I do know that my juice consumption at least doubled when I dropped down in steps from 24mg. It was easy to drop the nic from 24mg to 3mg in steps, but as I did I started to vape much more. I never really thought that I was vaping more nic, but I probably compensated as I dropped the nic levels by vaping more ML per day.

It's like when I smoked 2 packs a day of Cowboy Killers. Everyone else around me smoked Marlboro lights. On occasion, I'd run out and bum theirs. I'd light one off the other until we made it to civilization and I could buy a pack of reds.
I think you are on to something, but would suggest not jumping too high in one step.
 

pwmeek

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I do wish you success. Maybe it would be better on your body if you approach it in the same manner you did when dropping the nic level. You did that in stages, correct? I have read people upping the nic levels successfully but it was usually done in much smaller amts such as 1-2% at a time over a longer period of time. It just sounded to me like you were going to throw your body immediately in over nic mode and since I had just tried doubling mine and knowing what I went through, well, it just seemed like I should issue some sort of warning.
Good luck to you and have a Happy New Year.

:)
I agree that it should be done in stages, but maybe not such small ones. I'd consider doubling the nic content from 3 mg/ml to 6, maybe even from 6 to 12, but by much smaller amounts thereafter - maybe from 12 to 18, 18 to 24. Once at 24 maybe 20-30% increases from then on. If you have made too large a jump, you will know it - it will make you nic-sick. (Not dangerous, but unpleasant.)

Note well: it will take discipline to reduce your puff length and frequency, especially if you have developed the habit of chain vaping. Take a puff or two and then wait for at least a minute (60 seconds!). It will take that long for the rush to reach your brain. I'd be worried that by making very small nicotine increases that you might just keep chain vaping but raising your daily nicotine use. By making a significant (but moderate) increase, you should feel the difference and begin to adjust your puff length and frequency downwards.

If you make small batches (maybe 2-4 days worth) as you change your nic strength, it should be easy enough to keep track of how much juice of what strength you are using and thus be able to track how much nicotine per day you are using. Try to do without a big variety of flavors; this should make it easier to keep track of your changes. Once you get adjusted to your new level, you can go back to as many flavors as you like. (Reducing the number of variables always makes experimenting easier.)
 

DaveP

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When I adjust nic I only go up or down 1mg at a time. Love now that I diy I can adjust as needed.

It's definitely easier when you can mix your own juice at the nic, flavor, and pg/vg levels you like.

When I titrated down from 24mg to 3mg juice I did it over several months ordering vendor juice in lower and lower strengths. I went from 24 to 18 to 12 and then to 9, 6, and 3mg. It was really easy, but I remember vaping more often by the time I reached 3mg. Breaking the frequent vape cycle may be harder going back up in nic, but it's worth a try. I'm thinking that higher nic will satisfy me enough over 3mg that I'll not vape as often. At least that's my goal.
 

Letitia

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It's definitely easier when you can mix your own juice at the nic, flavor, and pg/vg levels you like.

When I titrated down from 24mg to 3mg juice I did it over several months ordering vendor juice in lower and lower strengths. I went from 24 to 18 to 12 and then to 9, 6, and 3mg. It was really easy, but I remember vaping more often by the time I reached 3mg. Breaking the frequent vape cycle may be harder going back up in nic, but it's worth a try. I'm thinking that higher nic will satisfy me enough over 3mg that I'll not vape as often. At least that's my goal.
I make a higher nic snv when I just can't put down my vape, or if I'm feeling particularly irritable. Generally works to slow me down, then just go back to my norm. Maybe choose a dedicated high nic tank and hit it a few times throughout the day.
 
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