Absinthe w/invertose: yes or no?

[Vapour Eyes]

I just bought some Prestige Sambuca, Absinthe and Jägermeister essences. Can somebody please advise on the conventional wisdom regarding invertose (which all three contain, though presumably at a low concentration) or using essences from homebrew stores generally?


Someone posted this on the Amazon review section for this product:
I used it to flavour the nicotine in my e-cig. Couldn't get the absynthe from my usual e-cig supplier, tried this and not only was it a lot cheaper it's a lot better. For those reasons it was 5 stars!
Not any more. Because of the add on programme I now have to buy six at a time and pay a fortune for postage. Far cheaper elseware.

If the invertose is a concern, is it health or atty related?

Please help. I'm desperate to make a start.

 

[HeadInClouds]

Invertose = high fructose corn syrup. A quick search shows it hasn't been studied for inhalation risk (from the current Material Data Safety Sheet). They're not the only flavorings that contain sugars, but most of the ones we use do not.

The sugar can clog an atty for sure. If you try it you'll find quickly if it contains more sugars than your atty can handle. If it's a minor enough ingredient that it causes no equipment problems, then you might want to research to see if you can find further safety studies.

Sorry I don't see more definitive data for you.

 

[Vapour Eyes]

Thanks for the reply. I guess my expectation was that there would be some success and/or failure stories from folks who have tried using flavourings from homebrew stores which (if the store I found stock's anything to go by) almost all have this ingredient. Someone in the new members area suggested dripping some on tinfoil and heating it on a hotplate to see if it gunks-up. Perhaps I should try and track down the reviewer on Amazon to see if (s)he ended up with a gear graveyard. This says that it is harmful if inhaled OR ingested: https://www.spectrumchemical.com/MSDS/TCI-I0043.pdf
So it's clearly covering inhalation and ingestion at industrial proportions. Confusing. I guess I just cop the loss and order some similar flavours elsewhere?

 

[gtbb]

The msds listed has too many "chronic health effects" as not available. I will stay away from that.

 

[Kurt]

Sugars in general are not recommended, since they easily decompose with heat into stuff you do not want to inhale: aldehydes, free-radicals, etc. Flavor Apprentice sells an absinthe flavor that does not have sugars. You might try that. You can get a 4 mL sample for $1.40. Others may sell that flavor as well.

 

[Vapour Eyes]

Of course, nothing to do with regular cigs is (or should be) convincing anyone - and most people around here already know that sugars are used in them. But I thought this was of interest (it is to me, anyroad):

"During smoking, minor unchanged portions of sucrose, glucose, and fructose are inhaled and exposed to the respiratory tract. Sucrose cannot be taken up or hydrolyzed in pulmonary epithelial cells (Ricard et al., 2000). If not cleared by mucociliary clearance, it passively leaks through the alveolar wall, distributes systemically, and is excreted unchanged in the urine (Martindale, 1993). Glucose and fructose are taken up by respiratory tract tissues and used for intermediary metabolism. In tracheal and pulmonary experimental systems, active glucose uptake was demonstrated to be regulated by nutritional and hormonal mechanisms (Das et al., 1985). Glucose is actively removed from the airway lumen against a 10-fold higher glucose plasma concentration gradient (Baker et al., 2006a). Since no such physiological regulation of fructose utilization in lungs has been observed, the uptake of fructose into alveolar epithelial cells is assumed to be by gradient-driven facilitated diffusion, similar to fructose uptake in intestinal epithelial cells."

Scientific assessment of the use of sugars as cigarette tobacco ingredients: A review of published and other publicly available studies

I mean, does this sort of thing not obviate most concerns?

"Sugars have also been approved for use as excipients for pulmonary drug delivery, such as glucose or lactose in dry powder inhalers (Kohlhäufl et al., 2004; Pilcer and Amighi, 2010). Lactose, a disaccharide very similar in structure to sucrose, is well recognized as a safe pharmaceutical excipient for use in oral or inhalation formulations and is also not likely to constitute any significant toxicological hazard to man (Baldrick and Bamford, 1997). The use of sugars as inhalation excipient supports the notion that the unchanged sugar that may be inhaled with smoking does not contribute any toxicity."

 

[Vapour Eyes]

Overall conclusion

In a comprehensive assessment, the potential effects of using sugars as ingredients in American-blend cigarettes were evaluated. While some changes with sugar application were detected, the overall evaluation of all data considered on a weight-of-evidence basis suggests that the use of sugars would “add no significant toxicity to tobacco products and therefore could be considered safe in the context of this use” (stipulation taken from the US Institute of Medicine, 2001). This conclusion is based on the results of chemical analytical, in vitro, and subchronic inhalation studies with research cigarettes with and without sugars as tobacco ingredients. In the current assessment, the evaluation was extended beyond previous assessments to include information on smoke exposure and smoking behavior, which was achieved by comparing markets of predominantly American-blend or Virginia-type cigarettes. From these comparisons, e.g. for nicotine uptake levels, no indication of sugar application-related differences could be derived. The data analyzed do not support concerns that the use of sugars as ingredients would increase tobacco smoking dependence. No difference in mortality due to smoking-related diseases could be detected between American-blend and Virginia-type markets, which could have shed light on any population-based harm related to sugar application. In conclusion, thorough examination of the data available suggests that the use of sugars as ingredients in cigarette tobacco does not increase risk or harm beyond that inherent to cigarette smoking.

 

[Vapour Eyes]

That's good enough for me to test a batch (yes, I read the whole report).

"This overall lack of effect is consistent with the results of a previous review which concluded that the sugars used as ingredients would not lead to an increase in the yield of acetaldehyde in commercial cigarettes (Seeman et al., 2002)."

And this is all founded on a comprehensive review of studies dealing with much greater presence of sugars and burning at much higher temperatures, chemically interacting with thousands of volatile toxins, in real cigarettes. Perhaps some Hidden Hand doesn't want us vaping sugar. Haha... I promise, no conspiracies...

 

[Izan]

 

[Vapour Eyes]

Shock that I'm going to use it or shock to discover sugars (at a low enough ratio to glycerine) are apparently benign for vaping purposes, Izan?

 

[Vapour Eyes]

"Our findings reveal that sugar inhalation, an inexpensive and safe therapeutic, could be used in combination with conventional antibiotic therapy to more effectively treat P. aeruginosa lung infections."
Sugar administration is a... [Am J Physiol Lung Cell Mol Physiol. 2013] - PubMed - NCBI

Just trying to convince myself I guess? That's okay. It gets my post count up while weighing in on something important, that seems largely overlooked or dismissed out of hand.

 

[Hoosier]

Remember there is a difference between inhaling X and the fumes of X burning.

 

[Vapour Eyes]

That's why (on the previous page) I posted the most detailed scientific review of studies on the effects to smoking cigarettes containing sugars I could find... the summary of which you will notice if you read the last page, indicates there are negligible health concerns where those sugars present in cigarettes are concerned - cigarette's that have way more sugar burning at a much higher temperature than what I'm talking about doing.

I tried it out after overcoming my own reservations. Tastes great straight up, mix-to-tank.

 

[Vapour Eyes]

I swear I wasn't trying to come over like an ........, Hoosier (it just comes naturally)

There are no doubt veterans here (whatever constitutes a veteran of vaping... 5 years?) who have not only some knowledge of the chemistry involved but also - importantly - pyrolysis.

"Pyrolysis is the breakdown of larger compounds to smaller ones caused by exposure to heat, sometimes in the presence of reactive gases such as oxygen. Pyrolytic products of tobacco constituents or ingredients can also form compounds that have molecular weights larger than the precursor by a process known as pyrosynthesis. In addition, when oxygen is present, oxidative reactions can occur such as combustion. During smoking, most tobacco is combusted to carbon dioxide and water or incompletely combusted to carbon monoxide or less oxidized smoke constituents (Green and Rodgman, 1996).

Glucose, fructose, sucrose (Table 2, Figure 2), invert sugar, and also cellulose produce essentially the same compounds upon pyrolysis, and any differences observed in the pyrolysates of the carbohydrates are quantitative rather than qualitative (Sanders et al., 2002; Baker et al., 2005)."

Okay. You may avoid invertose etc. due to concerns about aldehydes and so on. But if you vape with PG PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING:

"Conditions to Avoid: Exposure to elevated temperatures can cause product to decompose. generation of gas during decomposition can cause pressure in closed systems. Avoid direct sunlight or ultra violet conditions"

Right, so what does that mean exactly?

"Hazardous Decomposition Products: Decomposition products depend on temperature, air supply and the presence of other materials. Decomposition products can include and are not limited to: Aldehydes. Alcohol. Ethers. Organic acids (emphasis mine).

This is from the MSDS for PG. I've yet to read the VG safety sheet so I don't know if the story's the same.
Is all this common knowledge amongst 'long-term' vapers? Is it a potential panic the vaping community is not ready or willing to enter into?

 

[Hoosier]

Is all this common knowledge amongst 'long-term' vapers?

Yes. There have been a number of new vapers that have panicked due to just having part of the information. Particularly specific temps decomposition occurs and the difference in temps between a dry coil and a wet coil.

Is it a potential panic the vaping community is not ready or willing to enter into?

It's not as common as the panic when a new vaper reads part of the info on VG. It's been gone over many times. Again the specific temps and the difference between a dry coil and a wet coil's temp. (Sometimes the coil temp doesn't matter until the individual realizes that if the coil isn't wet, much lower temp, then there is no PG or VG on it.

If there was a condition known as "Rock Star Lung", then there would be something to think about. The vapor from boiling tens of gallons of PG/VG mix before and during concerts would really bring any problem to the forefront.

Speaking of which, a great time to vape without being noticed is to go to a concert in a smaller venue. Once the whole joint is saturated with the fog from the fog machines, nobody can tell you're vaping clouds. (They really need to have the servers wear a specific color of glowies or something so you can find them in the haze though. Made it a challenge to get another bourbon during the concert.)

 

[Vapour Eyes]

If the inference is that I have not read thoroughly enough, I'd refer you to your own comment about the 'difference between inhaling fume X...' Had you read the review I was referring to on the previous page? Because that requires a little more concentration than a MSDS.

And I think there is a little too much flippancy when, on the one hand, telling new vapers that sugars are bad for them (and how many of you can honestly say you've read said review, or the more than 40 years of scientific papers it covers?), while on the other, make free with concert analogies and the safety of PG. I've been playing music for 30 years and am no stranger to smoke machines, I assure you. But we're talking about way different levels of exposure, delivery to the lungs and all the rest. I've breathed in more vapour in months of vaping than most rock stars would in decades of performing. And many musicians (including myself) were smoking AND being exposed to smoke machines... not the best sample group for a study into the harms of PG exposure when heated. But the greatest oversight this comparison generates is the presence of nicotine and "the presence of other materials." Aldehydes can form as a result of the interaction at temperature between nicotine and 'other materials' Last I checked they weren't putting nic in smoke machines.

I really hope you are right. I love vaping and, after smoking for about as long as I've been playing music, I am not going to be put off by these concerns, right now at any rate. If people here really want vapers to be well informed, why do they consistently tell newcomers that sugars are unequivocally to be avoided and glycerine (at pharma grade) poses no health concerns? It's lazy at best and worse than disingenuous if not laziness.

I really think you should read what I'm posting a little more closely. I didn't read the MSDS on VG, at all. I did read the PG safety sheet: all of it. It's not exhaustive. I also read all of the review (that no one is mentioning but me). And, moreover, I read every article I could find linked to that review. 3 years running on the dean's roll of excellence at my university, a distinction in honours and conducting a major foundational study last year doesn't exactly make me a slouch when it comes to research.

I welcome your comments about wet/dry coils etc. If it has been addressed so thoroughly and so many times, why hasn't someone just directed me to the relevant threads?

As for vaping at gigs: I saw the Melvins night before last and vaped my little black heart out without a word of complaint from staff or punters. No smoke machine in sight. We don't have any vape stores or bars and only a couple of places selling anything to do with vaping where I live. Yet the majority of bars I've been to since vaping have no problem with you doing it indoors.

I'd like to ingratiate myself with the members here. But I'd rather be well informed. Hopefully the two are NOT mutually exclusive.

 

[Hoosier]

i recommend against sugars solely based on coil gunking.

All I did was point out that sugar in cell cultures was different than inhaling sugar gunk burning on a coil.

I also said the subject on PG degenerating has been discussed many times during my years here and that temperatures and the conditions we use it in are important facts that are often overlooked.

If you wish to take issue with those things, that is your business. I've been nice and just stated what I know. I haven't assumed anything about your intentions. I've never said vaping was safe. I often say it is not safe. Safe is no risk. Vaping is just reduced risk.

My grandfather always said if you look hard enough for something you'll always find it. So, what is the "it" you're looking for this deep in a sub-forum dedicatited to DIY juice mixing?

In all honesty I jumped on this thread because it seemed you were talking to yourself. You asked this sub, yes or no, and most said no, that they wouldn't do it. I thought I would be nice and post. Please ignore me and continue with your thread.