all these negative campaign is working...

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TheJakeBailey

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Everyone who recommends taking a firm hand, going on about politics, and the FDA, and blah blah... That doesn't work. You can have that discussion, but it can't be the ONLY argument.

There are studies and information on Cassa about what we DO know. Start there. Information is always better than rhetoric.

Can we stop carrying on about nic in vegetables? The nic we use doesn't come from them, can't come from them, will never come from them. It's irrelevant.

Also, that ecig "champion" from Fox News is completely uneducated on e-cigs, what they are, and how they work. The "it's just water vapor" thing is simply not true. I cringe every time I see his videos reposted.

If the right wing is going to save us, I guess we should having nothing to worry about for the next two years. Right?
 

Jman8

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Can we stop carrying on about nic in vegetables? The nic we use doesn't come from them, can't come from them, will never come from them. It's irrelevant.

I disagree. Nicotine is not irrelevant to nicotine. If we are in some technical argument, then it can be shown to be irrelevant to what is likely being discussed. But if dealing with people who are coming mostly to only from a propaganda perspective, then I think it helps to bring in counter propaganda, that may not be technically accurate, but is relevant because their (nonsensical) points are usually about hype around nicotine and not technical benefits and harms of nicotine.

Also, that ecig "champion" from Fox News is completely uneducated on e-cigs, what they are, and how they work. The "it's just water vapor" thing is simply not true. I cringe every time I see his videos reposted.

Same response as before. The propaganda suggests this stuff exhaled from eCigs is equal to smoke. The propaganda position doesn't care to stipulate and get technical but instead hopes the audience's hatred for (or normal bias against) smoking will be the punctuation mark that brings an end to any 'what's so good about eCigs' discussion. So, counter propaganda, that deals with sound bites may be effective and as it looks a lot like the water vapor one exhales on a cold day, then I see that as a worthwhile point to make in sound bite fashion. If one rather get technical about what precisely is being exhaled and go through umpteen paragraphs of tedious data to extrapolate further points of reasonable discussion, then "it's only water vapor" is not prudent for reasonable discussion.

As this thread's OP implies, or even outright states, we are in a propaganda war. If not able to utilize own propaganda, or stoop to that level, then the negative memes around eCigs will likely grow stronger. Or see "cigarette smoking" as example of how very little critical thinking and mostly to only emotional hype (nonsensical sound bite rhetoric) is allowed to be deemed 'authority' on that topic.
 

Rizzyking

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Let them read ecigarette-research.com Dr f has done a few studies but that site has other scientific studies relating to vaping and as he is a proper doctor your more likely to make progress. It's hard when your family becomes scared for you and softly softly is the better way more often then not. Admitting that vaping may not be perfectly safe may also give you the opening to go deeper into it with Dr farsalinos site maybe read it together with your wife sort of shared learning approach.
 

TheJakeBailey

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I disagree. Nicotine is not irrelevant to nicotine. If we are in some technical argument, then it can be shown to be irrelevant to what is likely being discussed. But if dealing with people who are coming mostly to only from a propaganda perspective, then I think it helps to bring in counter propaganda, that may not be technically accurate, but is relevant because their (nonsensical) points are usually about hype around nicotine and not technical benefits and harms of nicotine.



Same response as before. The propaganda suggests this stuff exhaled from eCigs is equal to smoke. The propaganda position doesn't care to stipulate and get technical but instead hopes the audience's hatred for (or normal bias against) smoking will be the punctuation mark that brings an end to any 'what's so good about eCigs' discussion. So, counter propaganda, that deals with sound bites may be effective and as it looks a lot like the water vapor one exhales on a cold day, then I see that as a worthwhile point to make in sound bite fashion. If one rather get technical about what precisely is being exhaled and go through umpteen paragraphs of tedious data to extrapolate further points of reasonable discussion, then "it's only water vapor" is not prudent for reasonable discussion.

As this thread's OP implies, or even outright states, we are in a propaganda war. If not able to utilize own propaganda, or stoop to that level, then the negative memes around eCigs will likely grow stronger. Or see "cigarette smoking" as example of how very little critical thinking and mostly to only emotional hype (nonsensical sound bite rhetoric) is allowed to be deemed 'authority' on that topic.

So what you are saying is it doesn't matter if anybody tells the truth or knows what they are talking about as long nobody else is doing it either. Sounds like a logical society to me.
 

Papa_Lazarou

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within due time ... all the spew and lies will come back to bite the doubters ... soon, doctors will have to chime in with the positive results they are seeing with their smoking patients who have switched to vaping.

these type of people, would have also believed the world was flat at one point.

This is a good point. I have yet to hear of anyone being told they have worse stats (BP, O2 levels, lung function, etc.) after switching to vaping; in fact, quite the reverse. When we report this, it's called anecdotal (and therefore, discounted), but if actual medical doctors reported quantified data on the efficacy of vaping, this would be significant.

I get that sneaky health issues like cancer are more difficult to evaluate in this way (i.e., for doctors to comment on the future risk in patients not currently suffering from the affliction), but the hard data on current status should be there.

While we don't/can't have long term studies related to vaping efficacy, surely there is a preponderance of data showing the immediate or short term benefits.
 

wshanncap

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I know. A friend was talking the other day about how e cigs contain 10 times more carcinogens than cigs. I shook my head and gave her the rundown on the so called "news" report. I emailed her a number of links about the truth concerning the health issues between cigs and vaping. She hasn't talked about it since. When are people going to stop believing the lamestream media? :facepalm:
 
The fear-mongering is ramping up right now, and trying to hit the mothers of America where they live. (Won't someone please think of the chiiildren?!) My friend who smokes actual cigarettes doesn't want her husband to vape around their kids, because she's afraid that they'll get nicotine poisoning from the vapor. I pointed out to her that he, and I, have been inhaling the vapor into our lungs for a while now and neither of us has keeled over from nicotine poisoning, but her fear is stronger than her logic. Which, I think, is what the antz are counting on. And I'm not talking blowing clouds in a toddler's face, either, I'm talking can't vape in the living room when the kids are in the kitchen, has to go outside.

Ultimately, you are an adult. It is all well and good for your wife to be concerned about you, and concerned about your kids, but she does not get to dictate to you what you can and can't do with your own body. She might tell you to go outside rather than vape around the kids, but she does not get to tell you you can't vape at all. My doctor vapes. She's ecstatic that I have quit smoking and started vaping. I pay her to help me manage my health, so I'm content with her endorsement. Yes, there are unknowns about vaping, and ten years from now we might find out that we've harmed ourselves by doing it…but we know for a fact that smoking will kill you, and most of us kept doing it for a long time anyway. People who have never tried to quit anything cold turkey are always willing to tell other people "why don't you just quit?" but you and I both know that doesn't work…otherwise we'd have done it years ago. There is an element of risk to everything we do, from drinking tap water to driving a car. Eventually, something will kill us all, and it will probably be unpleasant regardless of how clean we try to live.

I guess don't vape around the kids, if that's the major issue and will keep the peace in the home. I don't get the "don't talk to kids about your vaping" thing, because I don't believe that you should lie to children, nor do I think that they're dumb enough not to seek out information on their own if they really want to know about something. At least if they're getting the information from you you can be sure that it is the best, safest information you can give them. Maybe be sure to stress that vaping is for adults, that batteries/mods and e-juice can be potentially harmful if messed with, and don't make a point to make it seem fun to them. You're the one who has to live there, so you know best what you have to do to maintain good relationships with the people who love you. If it were me, I'd tell your wife and other family that you appreciate their concern, but that you are making the best, most informed decision you can about your health and that you feel like the possible future risks of vaping are far outweighed by the visible, concrete benefits of not smoking cigarettes.
 

Jman8

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So what you are saying is it doesn't matter if anybody tells the truth or knows what they are talking about as long nobody else is doing it either. Sounds like a logical society to me.

No, I'm saying that we are in a propaganda war and that war is clearly mischaracterizing what eCigs are, and one side is winning converts based on its insistence to stick to sound bite rhetoric. Therefore our side shouldn't rule out going there, if it serves us. Saying other things do contain nicotine and saying it is water vapor we are exhaling serves us when the other story being told is, nicotine is absolutely despicable and what comes out of an eCig is highly toxic, like smoke.

If the other side was a) not in such control of the overall narrative, and b) not so prone to deceptive tactics, I would be advocating for truth telling as the only way to truly win.

I've long argued for our side to engage in way more propaganda PR than we currently do. I think it would make a difference and help our cause. I'd actually like to see our side be over the top with the PR and intentionally mock how ridiculous our adversaries approach is. I see it as good strategy, plus likely very entertaining from the politically aware vaper's perspective.
 

Maiar

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"Adam, I've been very supportive of you vaping to quit smoking and I'm proud of you. But I've read some negative things about it recently. But you're an intelligent guy, so if you say that it's all being overblown and made up then I trust you."

What my father said to me recently.

And I think our side should stick to the truth and the truth only. I don't want any part of some bull.... propaganda war where both sides are lying to achieve their ends. When all the actual science is in, then we use that and only that to establish our position. You can't knock us over if the foundation we build is on the truth.
 

Jman8

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And I think our side should stick to the truth and the truth only. I don't want any part of some bull.... propaganda war where both sides are lying to achieve their ends. When all the actual science is in, then we use that and only that to establish our position. You can't knock us over if the foundation we build is on the truth.

Do you think foundation of smokers / smoking rights has been knocked over? If yes, to any degree, then I believe what you've conveyed is mistaken. Where is this 'actual science' thing of which you write? Who's reporting that other than vapers talking with fellow vapers?
 

Jman8

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my wife who wanted me to go cold turkey is now worried vaping isn't good at all. my father who was very supportive also but read ton about it and feels that vaping might be dangerous. and my wife is concerned about my kids since i showed them the kits and gave them long talk about battery safety and what could happen if mishandled.

This is first paragraph of OP, of this thread.

This is the propaganda war at work that I speak of. OP's wife is worried vaping isn't good at all. OP's father was very supportive but now, after reading articles on vaping, feels vaping is dangerous. OP explains to his kids what his kits are, how to handle gear safely, what happens if it is not handled safety, and a fellow vaper calls that 'dumb.'

To deny there is a propaganda war strikes me as a losing scenario, or being set up like a bowling pin to be knocked down, very easily. To think 'science' will save us when the people espousing the 'extreme dangers of eCigs' are persons with "Dr." by their name, and then reported by all the major publications as if it were gospel, is to not realize a thing or two about how 'science' works on this planet.

If you can't see yourself getting into the propaganda battle that is clearly in progress, that's fine. I can respect that. But to criticize us who are fighting the good fight and to call certain, otherwise responsible actions dumb, is where I'm up for a continued discussion on this topic, if there are those who have the audacity to go there.
 

Rizzyking

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I get the point your making Jman and part of me agrees with you but the main part of me says we're in the right and shouldn't resort to going down to the level of the Ants. The other good point made by someone else and reinforced for me today is that the number of doctors seeing positive benefits of vaping on their patients is going to start coming out as my doctor today congratulated me on switching to ecigs and benefitting because of it. Times on our side and we should allow the half truths and exaggerations to stay on the Ants side so they look even stupider when the truth comes out.
 

Jman8

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I get the point your making Jman and part of me agrees with you but the main part of me says we're in the right and shouldn't resort to going down to the level of the Ants.

I would just note that this my advocacy is in the court of public opinion. If I were to ask a business owner if it were okay to vape in their establishment, and they respond with, "sure, it's just water vapor, right?" Why would I then get technical with them about this? Also, if we are being technical, it isn't even 'vapor' that we are inhaling/exhaling, and if continuing in the tedious technical direction, it isn't even 'vaping' that we are engaged with. So, avoiding this, as based on reasoning that we don't want to be like ANTZ in any way, would mean that 'vaping' must be removed from all discussions as it is an inaccurate term.

The other good point made by someone else and reinforced for me today is that the number of doctors seeing positive benefits of vaping on their patients is going to start coming out as my doctor today congratulated me on switching to ecigs and benefitting because of it. Times on our side and we should allow the half truths and exaggerations to stay on the Ants side so they look even stupider when the truth comes out.

I would say time is not on our side, though depends on what the agenda is for the vaper. If you are a vaper who only vapes in your own home and are content with that situation, plus have a supply stock to last you for a decade, then time is on your side. But if you are a vaper who enjoys vaping everywhere in public, with respect to all other persons in public, but local/state jurisdictions are passing laws based on previous smokefree laws (all of which are debatable in their own right), then time is not on our side. Cause what are the chances that say scientific consensus concludes passive smoking doesn't cause diseases, that we wake up in a world where everyone is now okay going back to how things were in the 1950's when you could smoke everywhere? I would say between zero chance and none at all. So, if science 15 years from now determines that passive vaping causes zero, or very little harm, to 'innocent bystanders' but all the states have conditioned court of public opinion to treat second-hand vapor as annoying/dangerous as second-hand smoke, then science will not save us. And instead vaping in public will be as fun as smoking in public is. Plus likely that despite the hatred some vapers may have for smoking, the court of public opinion will say clearly smokers and vapers belong outside, huddled together doing whatever it is they need to do.
 

Tennjed

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Vaping has been around for a decade now. And how many people got terminally ill, have cancer, got obese, went to ER(besides blowing up the batteries)? Just a quick list of most common long term side effects from vaping. Allergies to Nic, PG or VG doesnt count.
How many people got terminally ill, cancer, obese, or went to the ER after less than 10 years smoking cigarettes?
 
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