An idea for avoiding FDA approval or control

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LaceyUnderall

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Lith - Also one more thing about claims... based on this report and the argument you are making about vaping vs Smoking ... If you sell Ruyan liquid, then you can make the claim that E-cigs are healthier than tobacco cigarettes... per this sentence:

"The various test results confirm this is the case. It is very safe relative to cigarettes."

Safe = Healthier

No? or Yes.
 

Lithium1330

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I don't think we need to beat this to death lol, I said your calls are false, now, putted on another words your slang is false, you can use it but it still is false, you are saying you are going for a smoke, ok, but you actually are not having any smoke, that looks false to me, now, I'm not gonna defend the word vape, because I'm not an english speaking person, an english speaking person suggested the name and that is it, sounds logical to me that vape comes from vapor, just like smoke comes from... SMOKE I don't know if that word is exclusivly for marijuana (because actually you can SMOKE marijuana too) and I don't care, I'm not callling it going for a vape, I'm calling it "voy a fumar" just like you, but indeed everytime I'm saying "voy a fumar" I'm calling it with a false name, just like you, but I don't have to deal with crazy anti-smokers or with the FDA, you keep calling it whatever you want, I will too, when I have learned the accurate word for the action of inhale a vaporized liquid and then exhale I'm gonna use that word (in english or spanish) just because it will be accurate, meanwhile, your slang is still false and mine probably too. that is it, end of the story, at least for me, I have give you scientific prove and all, so I can't do anymore.

Add:
I think a NRT is aimed to quit smoking but ALSO to beat the nicotine adiction, that study dosn't show anything about quitting nicotine:

This study will investigate two questions: (1) can the e-Cigarette (a new nicotine delivery device) relieve symptoms of tobacco withdrawal more rapidly than standard nicotine replacement therapy (nicotine inhaler) and placebo; and (2) how does user satisfaction compare between these different products.

And, look closely to this: They call e-cigarette: "a new nicotine delivery devices" but they call the NRT: "nicotine replacement therapy" there is a BIG difference between Replacement and Delivery and too between Device and Therapy.

It is very safe relative to cigarettes of course.
 
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Kate

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I don't really want to get drawn into this discussion but there are a couple of things I think should be added.

Ruyan don't sell NRT. They may be having effectiveness tests carried out (thank goodness someone is bothering to look into research for us) but their marketing says "These devices are NOT intended to, or sold to, assist you in quitting smoking ..."
Sunridge Distribution, Inc - Featuring Ruyan America,,The Cure Drink Maybe at some point in the future we will be grateful if the research results prove effectiveness for cessation. I'm sure it would help as a last resort in places like Australia where nicotine eliquid is banned.

The other thing is that I think 'safe' is not the same as 'healthier'. Healthier is a medical term that requires peer reviewed studies carried out by a scientific committee as far as I know. Safe is not a medical term and can cover such conditions as fire safety etc.

Just being pedantic ... sorry ... that's all from me for now ;)
 

LaceyUnderall

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Well.. Ruyan can change what they say on their website... but their User manual for the super (mini) cigarette clearly states that suitable users are "The smokers who want to quit smoking". Ask Health Canada why they are stopping e-cigs at the border? It comes down to what is written in the manufacturers manuals.

Sunridge is simply a distributor. They do very well to ensure, like many of us, that this is not a quit smoking device.

The following link IS one of the websites they do sell directly to the public through: Super E-Cigarette Deluxe-001 Blue Pack + Optional Cartridges : Wholesale E-Cigarette - China Ruyan Wholesale - Discount Electronic Cigarette Wholesale From China

"It can refresh the smokers and satisfy their smoking addiction, making them happy and relaxed, so as to relief the suffering of quitting smoking."

Also... Ruyan,Electronic Cigarette,E-Cigarette,China Wholesale Retail, Manufacturer, International exporter, supplier,ruyan, electronic cigarette, e-cigarette,e-cigar,e-zigarette, elektrische zigarette,Store eCigarettes.cn Look at their footer! They link to one of their blogs through a "quit smoking" link.

They may be lost in translation... but their intention was NRT from the beginning... and smoking alternative...
 

TropicalBob

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I'm shocked at what you found, too, Lacey. But not completely surprised since Ruyan's Web site says it mislabels material to give consumer a financial break. In other words, it lies and cheats.

From RuyanHealth FAQs

Q: Why do you mark each parcel as "gift" or "sample" and low value product?
A: Just to help you avoid the customs charge ( Tax ).
 

nakli_dhumrapan

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To weigh in on what is probably really a moot point.... Words mean what we use them to mean. Languages aren't platonic dictionaries floating in the ether, they are how people actually speak. E-cigarettes/personal vapo(u)ri(s/z)ers/etc. are a new invention, and so people will have to come up with vocabulary for them.

In earlier English bread meant 'crumbs' and loaf meant 'bread'. So if I use bread to mean 'bread', am I speaking incorrectly? 1000 years ago, I suppose you could make a case that I am. But, languages change (and not because of dictionaries).

Is 'vaping' slang? Maybe. If you can tell me what slang means. If it just means whether a word is in the dictionary or not, that doesn't help much. Lots of what people would call 'slang' is in lots of dictionaries (the Oxford English Dictionary just added Homer Simpson's doh!, and it also of course has all of the four-letter words in it as well).

But, I don't think one object to Lacey's use of 'smoking' for use of an e-cig. Smoking for Lacey must simply have a broader range of meaning than possible for some others. I myself use both 'smoking' and 'vaping' (depending on what I what to emphasise---if I'm talking to someone who disapproves of smoking, I'll say 'vaping'....otherwise, usually 'smoking'). And presumably 'smoking' in the sense of 'smoking cigarettes' must have been "slang" once too...if I say 'the fire is smoking' or 'the top of Lacey's head is smoking', 'smoking' has a very different sense than if I say 'Lacey is smoking'.

But, by the bye, presumably 'vaping' must come from 'vapo(u)r'. By analogy: smoke comes from cigarettes, vapour comes from e-cigs; using a cigarette is 'smoking', thus using an e-cig must be 'vaping'.

That it's not in any dictionary (other than the online urban slang one) is just because dictionaries take a while to catch up to actual language use.
 

Cymri

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This is a pivotal thread. I used to work in getting medical diagnostic products into the market. We had the FDA on our minds at all times and the wording and categorization in our proposals could mean the difference between getting a product on the market in months versus years.

Lacey is absolutely on the right path here by looking at the Nico Water precedent. However, eliquid will likely have to be designated a tobacco product (I am fairly certain) due to its strength as is Nico Water's high concentration product. Now- there are two very distinct issues here: 1) the vaporizer 2) the nicotine-containing liquid.

The vaporizer we all use does indeed have precedence with the vaporizers that are sold in head shops for much more dubious purposes. This whole discussion on the semantics of "smoking" or "vaping" is really irrelevant. Knowing in a common sense way what something is "really" used for can be quite different than it's legal defintion as a product. Headshops sell their vaporizers as "Herbal Vaporizers." Period. No more elaboration than that is offered. The design principle for e-cigs is exactly the same as for the Herbal Vaporizers that headshops have sold for years. Therefore, this one is easy- our devices are just small personal herbal vaporizers.

Now Ruyan has in my opinion gone and shot themselves in the foot by pursuing the NRT route. It's enormously expensive and time-consuming to get approval for that. However, I can understand why they did it: they know the money is in the cartridges, not the vaporizer. Plus there is the issue of the patent. They knew that there is no real design difference between their vaporizer and all the ones that have been on the market for years- except in terms of using it as an NRT device. Old device, new application, and that I believe is the basis for the patent claim.

The hype we all have going here for the e-cig as the safe & sexy 21st century cigarette needs to give way somewhat to a lower profile image in light of what is happening with the FDA right now. Instead it needs to be marketed as a personal vaporizer that could theoretically be used to imbibe a tobacco preparation if the owner so chose to do so. Sellers should make no claims whatsoever about what it is intended to vaporize other than herbal preparations in general. This is where the FDA and WHO have gotten jumpy. They have a big hardon when people start making claims about health benefits of their products- especially when they meander into areas like NRT where the FDA forced Big Pharm to cough up millions to play. They simply will not stand for some innovative upstarts to enter the business without forking up the big bucks as well. So, for those that sell vaporizers, refraining from mentioning TOBACCO, CIGARETTES, STOP SMOKING, HEALTH or anything else vaguely resembling NRT claims will go a long way toward ensuring you can keep selling them.

The eliquid is even more of a slippery slope. But Lacey and Lithium and others sure seem to be on the right path with the precedent of Nico Water and other tobacco products that barely resemble tobacco as we have known it. Nicotine Water screwed themselves the first time around by claiming it was a dietary supplement instead of a tobacco product. The FDA used the opening and banned it on grounds that it's intended use was as a smoking cessation product. (search FDA site for ruling)
This is where the FDA gets very tricky. In Nico Water's situation it wasn't so much the stigma that surrounds nicotine and tobacco as it was the claims they made for Nico Water's intended use. The FDA has officially designated nicotine addiction to be a disease. Therefore, any product claiming to help or mitigate that addiction is automatically designated as a medical drug or device and thrown in with all the new drugs and medical devices requiring exhaustive clinical trials. Nico Water finally got it right 6 years later by officially marketing it as a tobacco product. That puts it in the same category as cigarettes and snuff and out of reach of the FDA. Despite the actual legal category of Nico Water, they still use the health/quitsmoking angle. Look at how the wording on their site implies that it is an NRT without actually saying it:
(search for Nicotine Water)- noobs can't post URLS I discovered just now. sorry lol!

So the model for keeping e-cigs, vaping, personal herbal vaporizing or whatever you want to call it out of reach of the FDA already has some very nice precedents. Head shops provide the working model for marketing vaporizers. Their devices have been promoted in a general way allowing the consumer to define how they use them. They do not come packaged with any kind of formulation and the manuals are written only to cover basic maintenance and general function of the device as opposed to any specific utilization. Our portable vaporizers would be well-served by such a marketing philosophy. That approach would go far to prevent the FDA from seizing them in customs as NRT devices if they weren't so clearly defined as such in the user manual and by the controversial chemical compounds packaged with them. Moreover it would also also help prevent any patent infringement concerns for NRT devices.

Eliquid should be introduced as a "tobacco product" under the same legal definition as Nico Water making it immune from FDA control according to rulings laid down in 2000. The fact that Nico Water is made in such a way so that it contains no tobaccoo tars appears to be very similar to the processing of tobacco for eliquid so that shoes in nicely. It's just a matter of properly referencing the precedents that already exist as a model toward sanctioned approval of eliquid. In this way, while there would certainly be government oversight and taxes on the eliquid as a tobacco product, it would be vastly better than having the FDA jump all over it and ban it outright. Quality control of eliquid would be a very nice bonus as well. Child-proof packaging would be of paramount importance and I personally believe this is an issue that eliquid suppliers should implement NOW.

The only real issue I can foresee is with the PG (propylene glycol). The FDA has approved medical device inhalers that use PG as a vehicle for drugs and I can very well see how they would alight upon that precedent to make claims that the PG in the formulation constitutes a medical drug delivery device. In fact I would bet on it that they would. The solution there is a rather easy one too I think- make the commercial eliquid without it and let users buy their own PG or VG to add to it if they wish.

On the marketing end, websites that sell vaporizers and eliquid would have to eliminate "how to" type info that is specific to nicotine eliquid. The same tacit discretion as seen in headshops would apply. Also, with this great forum as an "unaffiliated" resource, it shouldn't be a problem for people to figure it all out. I think it can be done.:D
 
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dc2k08

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Thank's for your incite cymri. Probably the the clearest explanation of events I've read in a long while. couple of Q's > A liquid without pg or vg would carry a very high concentration of nicotine. liquids must not contain more than 3.6% nicotine apparently. How would you get around this problem? Also has the FDA approved medical device inhalers that use VG as a vehicle for drugs? is it similarly situated?
 

Cymri

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A liquid without pg or vg would carry a very high concentration of nicotine. liquids must not contain more than 3.6% nicotine apparently. How would you get around this problem? Also has the FDA approved medical device inhalers that use VG as a vehicle for drugs? is it similarly situated?

Thanks dc! I got kind of carried away with it, but it really helped me get my thoughts together about this FDA issue.

There's a huge question. It is difficult to imagine how it would be done without PG. The higher the concentration of nicotine in a formula the hotter the controversy for sure. I was not aware of that 3.6% figure and am curious if that is a mandate or a just a physical solubility issue.

The PG as drug delivery vehicle is definitely used in medicine. It is such a widely used chemical though I have no idea how that would actually shake out. My intuition is that the FDA would find issue with it since there isn't really any research on the safety of it as a concentrated inhaled vapor as we use it. It would be ironic that a chemical arguably 100s of times safer than many components of cigarette smoke could be the deal breaker.
 

LaceyUnderall

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Welcome cymri! You appear to be a knowledgeable addition around here... :)

I have a question for you! I have this blossoming idea about going homeopathic with our liquid. It is my understanding that the HPUS nicotine drug sheet states that OTC would be 6X, RX is 3X and HPN is 1X. Now, obviously we are not going to benefit from 6X. And technically, I do not even see how a fuss could be raised on the no-nicotine solutions.

Do you have any insight on homeopathic?
 

TropicalBob

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Very nice posts. Good to have you here. This might seem a Catch-22: Nicotine would be forbidden as poison in any strong form we could use for our own mix; but as soon as a manufacturer dilutes it for use in a non-poisonous way, it becomes a "new drug" to the FDA.

Poisonous concentration? Illegal. Non-poisonous mix using nicotine? Unapproved new drug.

I like your thinking .. a lot. Please keep posting your thoughts here. You have valuable knowledge and insight into a thorny problem.
 

Cymri

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Welcome cymri! You appear to be a knowledgeable addition around here... :)

I have a question for you! I have this blossoming idea about going homeopathic with our liquid. It is my understanding that the HPUS nicotine drug sheet states that OTC would be 6X, RX is 3X and HPN is 1X. Now, obviously we are not going to benefit from 6X. And technically, I do not even see how a fuss could be raised on the no-nicotine solutions.

Do you have any insight on homeopathic?

Hi Lacey! You have posted some great stuff on this topic. I'm a bit confused about this homeopathic approach idea though. Here is a paper on Nico Water's homeopathic offering: http://www.hpus.com/nicopetitionltrhead final.pdf
The HPCUS is pretty up in arms in there about Nico Water supposedly defying their 6X policy for nicotinum by going 5X in their product to 4mg nicotine/500 ml water. Even so, that is only 0.008 mg nicotine/ml. Considering I use 36 mg/ml Riskee Yuice, I'm not seeing how a homeopathic eliquid could work for me.

Now that is not to say that there wouldn't be a market out there interested in such a preparation, but from my point of view the goal for a truly sanctioned eliquid should approximate the 1-1.5 mg of nicotine delivered to the system by an analog cigarette.

This is an area that gets really strange to me thinking about our current eliquid formulations. There's supposed to be about 20 drops in a ml of liquid. So for my 36 mg Riskee Yuice, that means there should be about 1.8 mg of nicotine per drop. Thats alot! But I sure don't feel like I am getting that much. Where does it go? Is my cartridge getting super nicated? Is the 1.5 mg number floating around for nicotine absorbed from a cigarette wrong?
 

LaceyUnderall

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Hi Lacey! You have posted some great stuff on this topic. I'm a bit confused about this homeopathic approach idea though. Here is a paper on Nico Water's homeopathic offering: http://www.hpus.com/nicopetitionltrhead final.pdf
The HPCUS is pretty up in arms in there about Nico Water supposedly defying their 6X policy for nicotinum by going 5X in their product to 4mg nicotine/500 ml water. Even so, that is only 0.008 mg nicotine/ml. Considering I use 36 mg/ml Riskee Yuice, I'm not seeing how a homeopathic eliquid could work for me.

Now that is not to say that there wouldn't be a market out there interested in such a preparation, but from my point of view the goal for a truly sanctioned eliquid should approximate the 1-1.5 mg of nicotine delivered to the system by an analog cigarette.

This is an area that gets really strange to me thinking about our current eliquid formulations. There's supposed to be about 20 drops in a ml of liquid. So for my 36 mg Riskee Yuice, that means there should be about 1.8 mg of nicotine per drop. Thats alot! But I sure don't feel like I am getting that much. Where does it go? Is my cartridge getting super nicated? Is the 1.5 mg number floating around for nicotine absorbed from a cigarette wrong?

Thank you for that piece of the puzzle. The pieces I had before this was several letters from every anti-smoking/nicotine prohibitionist group basically saying that the FDA should intervene and make HPUS throw NicoWater out on their butts :) March xx, 2003 Dockets Management Branch Food and Drug Administration Department of Health and Human Services 5630 Fishers Lane and ROPES &GRAY God I wish I had more money and my very own lobbyists... this would be so easy!

There is no doubt that the 6X would be nothing for us. But there is a great argument here for a "new" category. Somewhere that fits between FDA regulated drug and non-regulated taxable tobacco. I, as a supplier, am completely happy to comply to regulations for the safety of my patrons, as well as to charge a fair tax as requested by the government. (And yes, we aren't thrilled about "vice" taxes... but we have to willing to compromise and this product certainly should not be taxed as harshly as tobacco.)

As far as the 1.5mg, I do think this estimated number is wrong. I would like to see further study results on the idea that the additives for brand loyalty are as hard to kick, if not worse, than the nicotine. I can tell you first hand that I transitioned slowly over to the e-cig and once I went full tilt ecig, it has took me about a month to get over that certain something. My nicotine levels are fine and I am a relatively light esmoker compared to my comrades up here. (I can make a 15ml bottle last 30 days 18mg strength no problem and that's not bad for a pack of analog smoker).

It is my estimation that nicotine has been demonized and one of the biggest fights we have is to prove is that nicotine is really no worse than caffeine. (Personally, I think caffeine should be legal for purchase 18+ but that's an entirely different thread) However, anti's focus on the nicotine in tobacco and not the other additives. It is the other additives and the burning that make nicotine dangerous... not the nicotine. It is the delivery system that causes the true problem.

One thing you will learn about me up here is that I am an optimist when it comes to this. I personally think that the days of scare-tactics are over because frankly, the best thing that could have happened to American's are the smoking bans. We all thought Californians were off of their liberal rockers when they started banning smoking. Now that it has spread across the country and people are starting to feel their freedoms taken away (in more than just the cigarette fight), they are finding their voices.

Such an interesting time!
 

taz3cat

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I feel that the FDA is more concerned with the Chinese's use of cheaper additives to products they sell. The last 2 years there has been a large number of deaths from these cheaper additives. The is USP PG and other not pure PG etc. Other products have purer forms also. Some things have been bad subitutes and killed people.
 

Cymri

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Oh yes- happy to provide it. WOW those links! Nico Water sure did bring out the anti mob, torches n all.

I sure hope your intuition is right about the possibility of a "niche nic" category. Looking over the firestorm that Nico Water caused sure does bring to light just how rabid the anti-nic-zealots truly are.

Still, it really does feel like there is a critical mass gathering around this thing. The timing just feels right for it - a conjunction of technology, information, and a community of folks armed with the certainty that these misty little sticks are the only thing that has ever allowed them to put the cigarettes down.

I'm not sure it is actually possible to turn the tide on the demonization of nicotine any time soon, although you are quite right that it can be argued point by point to have comparable benefits and consequences on health as caffeine does.

Nonetheless, I'm optimistic as well because I know I am right about this. Now if we could just get some local manufacturers producing these small vaporizers and marketing them appropriately so that they don't force the FDA's hand.
 

Sun Vaporer

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It's too bad that stopping by here cannot be a pre-requisite for being a supplier. SOOO many problems would be avoided.

If you haven't yet, our good friends at Tobaccoharmreduction.org are on the case! Good allies to have in our boat.


Lacy--Have you considered selling your starter kits with Zero Nicotine Cartridges and letting consumers purchase the Nicotine cartridges and e-liquid under seperate order (or withinn the same order, but seperating the nicotine out of the Device)? or are you opposed to that idea? Much more difficult to ban a vaporizer sold with no drug? Thoughts?--Sun
 

LaceyUnderall

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Lacy--Have you considered selling your starter kits with Zero Nicotine Cartridges and letting consumers purchase the Nicotine cartridges and e-liquid under seperate order (or withinn the same order, but seperating the nicotine out of the Device)? or are you opposed to that idea? Much more difficult to ban a vaporizer sold with no drug? Thoughts?--Sun

Oh Sun... you should know me better than that by now! I am already one step ahead of you and you will all hear about it within the next week or so :)

That's all I am sayin!
 
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