Another Christian Here; Struggling With Clones

[Cotay]

Hi All,

Well, after about a month on ECF I finally stumbled upon this sub-forum and thought I'd introduce myself as another follower of Christ! I've been a Christian for most of my life but really dedicated myself to the Lord a decade ago. I'm excited to see that there are so many "others" here and hope to participate more fully in this sub-forum in the future. When other Christians question my "vaping", I always point them to Charles Spurgeon and his love of fine cigars. Personally I want to get down to 0g over the next few months...I've already dropped from 18mg down to 6mg in that past 45 days and the intent is to enjoy the oral fixation of vaping without the "addiction" over the coming months.

My main point of this thread however has to do with clones. Clones are by their nature the theft of the intellectual property of others who originally created it. In a sense then, by purchasing clones we are assisting the "thieves" in their act of theft. Don't take this as a criticism, I recently purchased several clone devices and it didn't occur to me until afterward that it might be an issue from a "Christian perspective" until last night when I considered getting a device with an Evolv clone. I considered that Evolv has spent a great deal of effort in engineering their boards and rightly deserve the benefits that come from those efforts. Again, I'm not pointing fingers, I'm just wrestling with this conceptually and wanted to get the take of other Christians on this forum. I realize that the predominant view on ECF is that clones are perfectly fine; all "legal" issues aside, I'm not sure I can continue to purchase them on moral grounds. What do you all think?

 

[mightymen]

3nd attempt to make this post but this time I copied what I typed and now I'll paste it in and hit submit. .

Welcome to the Christian section of ECF Cotay, Like your post and looking forward to reading more from you.

You've blessed me in a ways I can't express - Thanks for making the post.

I had a long reply made ready to post it and I was knocked off line and lost all what I did twice before but I do believe the Lord talked to me and explained it to both of us and I'll post the short form of it now.

I've also asked the same question and never knew the answer until now.

We are not under the law but under Grace and free from the law of sin, God said He will blot out our sins and not see them anymore, It's not that we don't sin but God said He will not see them and we are the righteous in His sight. Case closed we can't do no wrong in the sight of God but we can learn what is right and wrong if we allow with our free will to hear from God as our Teacher.

I've bought a DNA 30 from fasttech I knew it was a clone and it was made as a clone and sold as clone-look alike no one is trying to fool anyone here it is what it is.

IMO: If I wanted to buy a clone and it was made or being sold as brand name device for the purpose of fooling people for what ever reason, I would see it as being evil and separate myself from the evil as Scripture states we can not serve two masters. If I knew that buying any product contributed to evil I would try to separate my self from such a product if possible. I say if possible we live in this world but not of this world and because of the times and pressures of this world we think we need certain products as an example medications, If my doctor said I need a this one pill that no one else makes and it was life or death and I knew that the manufacture was in someway evil or contributing to evil it would be a very had choice to make and I'm pretty sure I would buy it but I would be in praying 24/7's over it but in no way will God view it as a sin of mine and hold it against me.

I learned something new today.

 

[Saintscruiser]

First and foremost, Cortay, welcome to the board. Please read 4th Sticky down and these are the rules of the board.

I have to admit I had no idea what this was all about. I checked it out. It seems like there are different kinds of cloning, from CD's to plants. I guess for me, anything that replicates life from cloning is off limits. That should only come from Almighty God. It seems to me that it's a short cut, cutting God out of it altogether. You are being answered by someone who makes stuffed eggs, not deviled eggs; uses any name vacuum except for 'dirt devil;' and when I make a chocolate cake, it's not devil's food. My family giggles at me, but that's just the way I am.

I don't know if I've answered your question or not, but what kind of cloning kit are you talking about? What are your reasons for using a cloning kit?

 

[jimbodaddy74]

He's talking about clones of vaping devices. Some will say counterfeit devices.

 

[Saintscruiser]

He's talking about clones of vaping devices. Some will say counterfeit devices.

Thank you for clarifying. Now why would a person post like he did in the Christian Forum about devices that can be answered in another area of website by experts? I guess after he read 4th sticky down, he realized we don't talk about e-systems in here. However, if you are interested in joining our small area, you are welcomed! Just read the 4th sticky down and join in! The more the merrier!

Thanks, Jimbo. Greatly appreciated!

 

[mightymen]

I recently purchased several clone devices and it didn't occur to me until afterward that it might be an issue from a "Christian perspective" until last night when I considered getting a device with an Evolv clone.

What do you all think?

He/she said they were Christian and asked other Christian how we deal with temptations and explain it well.

Shouldn't Christian go to Christians for advice.

Not only did I comment as a Christian. I took it as a teaching moment for me.

 

[Saintscruiser]

"My main point of this thread however has to do with clones."

I have no idea about the intricate systems of vaping. I noticed he never came back and wish he would. We don't bite...well, not on Saturdays. Ces't le vie!

 

[mightymen]

"My main point of this thread however has to do with clones."

I have no idea about the intricate systems of vaping. I noticed he never came back and wish he would. We don't bite...well, not on Saturdays. Ces't le vie!

It has become more complicated since start of this year many many many advancements made and lots lots of new stuff coming out every week.

Remember a few months back I told you I got a Cloupor T5 50 watt device that just came out when I got it while guess what it's out dated already the same company has since came out with a T6, T8 and a mini device. Also tanks and other stuff too.

 

[jimbodaddy74]

The question really has little to do with vaping devices and their use. He's questioning the morality of buying a device that is an obvious clone of another company's product.

 

[Saintscruiser]

The question really has little to do with vaping devices and their use. He's questioning the morality of buying a device that is an obvious clone of another company's product.

Different verbiage. OOPS! I think I'm firing on all cylinders now. What he was saying is if you know an item is a ripoff of a name brand, do you purchase it? When he was talking about 'clones,' I thought DNA. My bad. Thanks, Jimbo for being so patient with me.

 

[wshanncap]

Welcome aboard Cotay. Glad you posted. I like how you use Spurgeon's love of cigars as an answer to vaping. Good point. And vaping is not the same as tobacco so bonus points there. As for clones I have asked myself the same question. So far I still buy clones because they are usually not an exact copy and therefore not actually stealing. I also see it as a legitimate buyer making a purchase from a licensed seller. IF what they are selling is intellectual theft that I guess would be between them and God. But like I said...most clones are not really identical. So... I dunno.

 

[mightymen]

Don't know why I didn't think of this before.

What would Jesus do?

Matthew 22:21 They said to Him, "Caesar's." Then He said to them, "Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's."

We can also look in Scripture at

Corinthians 6

15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.

16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

1 Corinthians 6 KJV

Each has free will, each has a choice. The choice is not mine or anyone else's to make but yours.

 

[Cotay]

All, thank you for your replies; I apologize for not replying to this thread earlier. It has been an extremely busy couple of days with work and I was finishing up some coursework for a class I'm taking. To be honest, I had decided to hold off on replying since I wanted to gather my thoughts before jumping back in here. I appreciate the various thoughts you have all offered.

As an attorney, I view this perhaps from that angle. From a legal perspective, intellectual property theft can be either the using of another party's name or even partially copying another's design, etc.. Under intellectual property law, even end-users can be sued by the IP holders...it rarely happens since that is usually bad PR, but the law is clear on that point. The reason that we haven't seen much push back from the original designers is because enforcement of IP rights (especially in China) is difficult and can be extremely costly (a cost that most first-party mod makers likely cannot afford). So the question for me is whether we have a moral obligation not to help those who would steal designs (even partially) from profiting from that illegal act. I'm not sure there is an easy answer and each person will have to make a decision with their own conscience I suppose. By my original post I just wanted to introduce myself and share a point I've been struggling with.

 

[mightymen]

Great hearing from you again Cotay, it was a great QUESTION that I never gave any thought to until now.

We all have freewill and are responsible for our own choices we make. For me the question becomes can I stand in front of my Lord and be guiltless. Simply no other question is relevant to me.

I ask God and look in the Scripture knowing I'm not under the law but under the Blood. I don't answer the question myself if its right or wrong, I ask my Lord is it right or wrong. He allows me to then make my own choice regardless if its right or wrong.

I can quote Scripture all day long on this but it comes down to what do you believe because the world has no problem with it. Things get made and people buy them whether clones or not.

 

[Saintscruiser]

All, thank you for your replies; I apologize for not replying to this thread earlier. It has been an extremely busy couple of days with work and I was finishing up some coursework for a class I'm taking. To be honest, I had decided to hold off on replying since I wanted to gather my thoughts before jumping back in here. I appreciate the various thoughts you have all offered.

As an attorney, I view this perhaps from that angle. From a legal perspective, intellectual property theft can be either the using of another party's name or even partially copying another's design, etc.. Under intellectual property law, even end-users can be sued by the IP holders...it rarely happens since that is usually bad PR, but the law is clear on that point. The reason that we haven't seen much push back from the original designers is because enforcement of IP rights (especially in China) is difficult and can be extremely costly (a cost that most first-party mod makers likely cannot afford). So the question for me is whether we have a moral obligation not to help those who would steal designs (even partially) from profiting from that illegal act. I'm not sure there is an easy answer and each person will have to make a decision with their own conscience I suppose. By my original post I just wanted to introduce myself and share a point I've been struggling with.

I agree that everyone has free will.....going one way or the other. I also agree that people do this type of theft all the time. But notice I used the word 'theft.' This falls under God's law and man's law. If you go ahead and do it anyway, that's between God and you. Now being half Jewish, my father always taught me to appreciate a good bargain, but my mom taught me that 2 wrongs don't make a right. But it boils down to, 'What would Jesus have you do.' I believe that Jesus walked the straight and narrow and as His children, He would want us to do the same. Would Jesus purchase this knock-off merchandise? I'd say emphatically no. What would a decision like this teach our children? Some theft is okay while others aren't? It's like santa, tooth fairy and the stupid bunny. It's all based on a lie. You're thinking it's just a little lie. If you put a teaspoon of dog poo in a brownie mix, would you still eat it because it's a minimal amout, or does a teaspoon spoil the entire batch. Just some final thoughts on this.

 

[HauntedMyst]

Hi All,

Well, after about a month on ECF I finally stumbled upon this sub-forum and thought I'd introduce myself as another follower of Christ! I've been a Christian for most of my life but really dedicated myself to the Lord a decade ago. I'm excited to see that there are so many "others" here and hope to participate more fully in this sub-forum in the future. When other Christians question my "vaping", I always point them to Charles Spurgeon and his love of fine cigars. Personally I want to get down to 0g over the next few months...I've already dropped from 18mg down to 6mg in that past 45 days and the intent is to enjoy the oral fixation of vaping without the "addiction" over the coming months.

My main point of this thread however has to do with clones. Clones are by their nature the theft of the intellectual property of others who originally created it. In a sense then, by purchasing clones we are assisting the "thieves" in their act of theft. Don't take this as a criticism, I recently purchased several clone devices and it didn't occur to me until afterward that it might be an issue from a "Christian perspective" until last night when I considered getting a device with an Evolv clone. I considered that Evolv has spent a great deal of effort in engineering their boards and rightly deserve the benefits that come from those efforts. Again, I'm not pointing fingers, I'm just wrestling with this conceptually and wanted to get the take of other Christians on this forum. I realize that the predominant view on ECF is that clones are perfectly fine; all "legal" issues aside, I'm not sure I can continue to purchase them on moral grounds. What do you all think?

I've been against clones for all of those reasons so I don't buy them.