Another PG allergy thread?

[Schnarph]

First the question, then my story.
If vaping does not give me any irritation of the throat, mouth, lips, nose, lungs, eyes, or even headaches, how could I be allergic to PG?

I have been vaping 50/50 PG/VG 18mg nic e-liquid for just over 3 months, 2-3ml a day. I drink a gallon of water a day at the minimum, usually more. I started to develop a rash on my feet as soon as I started vaping. It soon spread to cover all of my foot, except the toes, which is weird. By the time I realized it was eczema (having never had it before) it had spread to my hands. It is textbook dyshidrotic eczema, AKA hand and foot eczema, pompholyx, and other names. Patches of very red skin covered in tiny blisters that are very itchy covered the soles and tops of my feet as well as the palms and tops of my hands. Like other types of eczema, it is caused by stress and/or allergies (food or contact related), PG is included as an instigator. After treating it for 2 months, it went into remission no red skin or itchiness anywhere. I was vaping 2-3ml a day of the same juice as before. I was so sick of having my hands and feet covered in Vaseline and oily lotions that I unwisely took 2 days off of this therapy, and drank quite a few homemade daiquiris in celebration. The symptoms came back as strong as ever. I'm back on the lotion treatment and the symptoms are slowly going away again. I have read from many sources that eczema may need treatment for many months after all symptoms are gone, so I won't make my terrible mistake again. I think I am allergic to lime juice, since citrus is also a cause of eczema. I would try 100% VG, but since I went into complete remission while still vaping 50/50 juice, I don't see how I could be allergic to PG.

I can only hope that anyone reading this looking for a answer to problems like mine will find this useful.

 

[rolygate]

Why not try the VG-only route? It might allow you to cease the medications.

There are some practical issues with glycerine-based refills that do not apply to PG-based ones. Some refills are too thick (viscous) to use as they are supplied, they must be diluted up to 20% with distilled water or similar. Some people DIY with a lot of flavouring and this would be enough if 5% of DW is used. Some use alcohol, ordinary vodka is just fine, it's usually about 40% alcohol and 59% DW.

There are more differences between brands of VG than with PG brands; if you don't like one, then try another.

 

[Schnarph]

I am flattered to get a response from rolygate! But I put the question mark at the end of my thread title because I don't think I am allergic to PG. I am already getting better while still vaping PG, and I can't find any posts on the forum regarding dyshidrotic eczema being the only symptom of a PG allergy. I think my problem is not a PG allergy, and I am looking to get debunked. If I have a PG allergy it sure is coming out in a very strange way. I need more info from those with experience.

 

[rolygate]

I'm interested in the eczema problem because it's a new one. Because of that I don't think it is related to smoking cessation or vaping.
Some people get acne from smoking cessation even though they never had it as a youth - not heard of eczema though.

Perhaps the only other thing that could be vaping-related is a reaction to a flavoring. Trying e-liquids from different vendors could be a good idea. Don't change too many things at once, though, as it is hard to work out which did what, if there is any change.

What sometimes happens is that something else changed at the same time as you started vaping, like maybe a change of washing machine detergent or something. Now those things definitely have potential for causing skin issues like eczema.

 

[Schnarph]

My thoughts exactly. Eczema can be caused by an allergy to PG, but that is only listed as an allergy because PG is a common ingredient in many soap products. Trying to research eczema caused by inhaling PG gives no results that I can find. So I got a bad case of eczema for the first time in my life at the same time I started vaping. I am a big fan of Occam's razor, but there are too many variables and I have no nasal, oral, or respiratory issues. I will be using VG only as soon as it gets here (within the week), and plan to stay off PG until my skin looks completely normal. Since this is nothing close to life threatening, I will try 20-30% PG when I am ready. If the rash comes back, that would be more conclusive. If I had any irritation in the head or chest region, I would not use myself as a guinea pig.

If I was overly cautious, I would have switched to VG only right away. If I didn't have a reaction to PG but something else, I may have even quit vaping altogether. That would have taught me nothing by itself. If no posts are made on this thread, I will try to post an update of my progress every week or so.

 

[Kurt]

There are of reports here of PG effects going systemic, and thus are truly allergic in nature, and not just chemical dryness. This includes hives, rashes, itching, and blotchy skin. I have not experienced this personally, but PG levels of 10% or more will cause me a lot of oral, throat, and intestinal problems, so unless I am using a non-PG flavoring, I have to limit flavors to 10%, generally less. When the lips start to chap, I have to pull back on that flavor.

Your condition may not be related to PG. Unfortunately, eczema is difficult to treat and tends to last once it starts, but I would seriously consider what Roly says, and try VG-only juices. A good vendor of VG-juices is VapeRite. Their Kona Cream and Caramel Cream are both excellent, and I believe use Nature's Flavors non-PG flavorings, if you want to go DIY.

If you are having to drink a lot of water all the time due to dry mouth, then PG is affecting you. What affects us topically at first eventually can become systemic. I don't have this issue with my VG juices. Mine have great flavor and good TH. Got mouth sores eventually with too much PG. Some don't have any problems with PG at all.

Not trying to be a medical doctor here. But PG issues in general are most likely much more frequent than people admit. There seems to be an almost religious attachment to PG. In other threads people may ask for info on making VG-only juices, and inevitably someone will post "well *I* use 20:80 PG:VG, and I like it!". Like the only option is LESS PG, but not NO PG. Not at all true. I would be miserable with 20% PG.

Plus, even if your base is 50/50, if you are using flavors, then most likely you are vaping at higher than 50% PG. If you are vaping 20% flavor, than the PG level is most likely close to 70%, depending on the flavoring.

 

[Schnarph]

I only have dyshidrotic eczema, meaning that it is on my hands and feet only. No chapped lips. No dry mouth. I have 1-2 cups of coffee most mornings, 1 or 2 sodas a week, and a 6 pack of beer on some weekends. I was drinking a half gallon of juice every week or two, but citrus can cause eczema so I have cut that out for now. I just like to drink water, always have.

As I said, 100% VG liquid is on the way. I don't care one way or the the other about TH. I ordered from HHV, they seem to have a good reputation in the VG only crowd. I am still vaping the 50/50 at the moment, and my hands are 90% perfect, feet aren't done peeling but the blisters are long gone and the itching stopped days ago. And when I say 50/50, I am including the flavoring and nic base, I mixed it myself. I had some half full bottles of 18mg '50/50' made by a vendor, and filled them to the top with straight VG, so the ratio is most likely higher VG than PG now, as well as being cut to 9mg.

Allergies can manifest in very unexpected ways sometimes. The causes of eczema are even harder to pinpoint. I was under extreme stress when my initial symptoms showed up. I just quit smoking (before vaping), my dog died in a slow and ugly way, and it was freezing and I had no heat. As the topical treatments did their job and the symptoms receded, in a one week period the car needed $5,000 in repairs, the very expensive refrigerator died, the clothes drier died, the well and cistern went dry, and I'm still getting rejection notices from job applications. I drank a lot of lime juice that weekend. The symptoms came back as bad as ever, but it's quickly getting much better again. PG may have a factor in this, it might not. The 100% VG is on it's way, I'll see how that plays out after using it a few weeks.

I appreciate the attention and information! I spend 95% of my time on the forum reading, but have not come across a case quite like mine. I have my doubts about being the .0001%(?) of e-cigarette users with my specific issue, but it is entirely possible. Again, the 100% VG is on the way.

Edit: What are the chances that the flavored 100% VG juice I ordered has diacetyl in it? Finding a PG free flavoring for DIY that is guaranteed diacetyl free is far from easy. I am willing to bet that if I buy 100% VG juice with flavor from almost any vendor, I will not be told if they use any of Nature's Flavors or not. Nature's Flavors does not make anything I would want to knowingly vape. From their own website:

Disclaimer(s)

Information provided on Naturesflavors.com regarding the use of any products DOES NOT constitute a doctor-patient relationship between you and any person affiliated with Naturesflavors.com. You should not use the information on Naturesflavors.com for diagnosing or treating a health problem or disease, or for prescribing medication or other treatment. You should always speak with your physician or other healthcare professional before taking any medication or nutritional, herbal or homeopathic supplement, or adopting any treatment for a health problem. Nature’s Flavours does not support the misuse of our Natural and Organic flavors in electronic cigarettes or other treatment products. Information and statements regarding dietary supplements, or natural and organic products have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration and are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent disease.

 

[Schnarph]

Update. My hands look normal and do not itch. My feet are not itchy, but do not look great yet. Night before last, my earlobes and the backs my ears were itchy and dry, and this continued all day yesterday. I am still not 100% sure, but it seems like I have a PG allergy. I have had about 3ml over the past 5-6 days. Today I thoroughly cleaned my tanks and made some flavorless 75/15/10 (VG/PG/DW) at 15mg. The only nic base I currently have is 100mg in PG, so I am doing the best I can until the 100% VG juice gets here from HHV. In the past there were threads with many people posting their PG problems, but the one's with the better descriptions are expired. Many people describe dyshidrotic eczema but did not get that diagnosis. Now that I have itchy ears, it seems more obvious.

 

[stumpfreeman]

I have mild psoriasis that comes and goes the same way. Alcohol is also a big trigger for these skin conditions as well as nicotine. You can develop these allergies at any time, doesn't matter if you've had them before. I wouldn't look to PG first, consider other toxins that you consume as well.

 

[Schnarph]

I have mild psoriasis that comes and goes the same way. Alcohol is also a big trigger for these skin conditions as well as nicotine. You can develop these allergies at any time, doesn't matter if you've had them before. I wouldn't look to PG first, consider other toxins that you consume as well.

That could certainly be possible, hard liquor has never been my friend. As a matter of fact, I can't be sure if my skin problems weren't from PG, but from rum. I did drink the rum with lots of fresh squeezed lime juice though, and citrus can cause an allergic reaction like eczema. I've known a couple of people that were covered in hives every time they drank, until they made the connection and stopped. Beer in moderation and not on a daily basis has never been a problem for me, I had a six pack last weekend and the healing continued at a good pace. I'm not sure what other toxins I might be ingesting, I don't take any drugs and I'm not even taking Benadryl anymore. I suppose that depends on how you define 'toxins'.

It's only been one day since I last posted on this thread, but my hands look almost perfect and so do my feet! 100% natural shea butter that I got 2 days is working much better than expensive eczema cream from the pharmacy. My skin on the back of my ears is still rough, but doesn't itch anymore. This 75/15/10 (VG/PG/DW) 15mg mix I am vaping seems to agree with my skin, but tastes like the swill I had to use in a nebulizer when I was a kid. The next 20ml I make will be 10mg (10% PG), but it won't taste any better. My first ever 100% VG shipped from HHV yesterday and can't get to me soon enough. Flavorless = bleh, JMHO. I am really wishing I had bought my 100mg in VG instead of PG, but I didn't make the connection to a possible PG sensitivity back then. I need to try some PG free flavors from VZ or maybe a NET, when I can afford it. As I said in post #7, the universe has decided I take technology for granted and going further in debt is taking care of that.

 

[Schnarph]

Update:
I have been vaping 100% VG for a week now, and so far so good. No new eczema outbreaks, but the previously effected ares require constant moisturizing to keep from getting too dry. I am using all natural shea butter most of the time, and Cortizone cream when the itching becomes too much to handle. Dyshidrotic eczema is described as being like a malfunction of sweat glands. My feet get the worst of it, as they have to live in shoes most of the day. As long as I don't scratch or scrub them and avoid hot water, it's easy to take care of. I have read from multiple sources that this can take months to get over completely, and I'm taking this pretty seriously. It's going to be a few months before I try any PG again.

 

[aikanae1]

I have this too and I'm experincing an outbreak as well. I'm sure mine is from stress - and (not surprising I guess) stress has been a stumbling block to me quitting cigs 100%. For me, I suspect there is something in cigs, beyond nicotine, that helps me to manage my stress better and I'm to the point of ordering some WTA to test.

I am atopic; asthma, allergies and eczema. I've got a lifetime of dealing with allergies. This foot and hand stuff came on as an adult, for no known reason and it can be painful until it runs it's course. That usually means multiple outbreaks until it's done. I have never had a prescription, including cortizone, do anything other than temporary itch relief that usually doesn't last very long. I can get similar relief from a good cream.

Allergies are systemic reactions. Try a antihistimine like Benadryl to see if that helps. I came into this thread because I just read an article that claims paraban's and pg is releated. I am allergic to vaseline, neosporin, bacatricin, some anesthezia's and probably that would include pg if it's related. I'm still researching. PG is in everything, everywhere.

However this is painful. It is always worse under stress. What has worked for me is a good 'skin barrier cream' using urea. My derm turned me onto Cerave and it's not expensive. Another I've found on ebay or amazon has been Medline olivina skin barrier cream. It's usually sold to hospitals and professional offices. I apply the creams constantly to protect my skin, wearing gloves and socks at night too. I use it as a preventative. The shea butter is good, but doesn't replace the barrier function to protect your skin.

The function of skin is to provide a barrier between you and the enviroment. It's impossible to "feed" it externally unless something is very, very wrong or bad (like UVA).

I am much more sensitive to my enviroment under stress and it makes healing much more difficult. I have so many allergies that I can't stay away from them all. I have to manage them instead (true allergies are systemic) and focus on the ones that are potential life-threatening ones, which parabean's have been for me.

Nickle also cause a similar reaction and it's naturally present in a lot of foods like chocolate. Is there a difference between inhaling vs injesting food? Would synthetic flavors or no flavor be better? You could have something like a strawberry intolerance, which is localized. Tracking down allergies can be crazy-making. I think the sweat gland aspect has been debunked. It's serum in the blisters, not sweat. Doctor's usually claim there's no known cause, but they usually don't include stress as a factor.

Anyway, I'm sorry you have this. I hope I've helped.

 

[Schnarph]

Did I not mention I was under an abnormally large amount of stress when this started? My bad. I was almost completely healed when I ran into extreme money problems, more stress, and the eczema came back. I was taking maximum daily doses of Benadryl for the itching, but being super groggy and worthless all day was almost as bad as the eczema itself. I am not allergic to Vaseline, and it definitely helped during the worst outbreaks. I have not gotten a prescription for steroid cream, everything has been over the counter. The best stuff I have used to stop the itching is Sarna, which is steroid free and works in seconds. I ran out of that and have been using some OTC Cortizone that I already had around. If I still need something when that's all gone, I'm getting more Sarna. I haven't had anymore blisters in over a month, but it is really hard to never, ever, ever scratch even though I know it's what is making things worse. I'm not allergic to poison ivy, but I imagine this it feels just like this.

I am aware that the sweating issue is not popular and I don't buy it myself, but when my feet stay cool they get better much faster. When I try to keep my feet just barely on the warm side, they feel like they're on fire. Keeping them cool is an easy thing to do this time of year, but I need to be completely healed before it starts getting hot outside or I'm in for an awful relapse. I live without heating or air-conditioning, in the middle of Texas where a month of 100+ degree days is common. I usually work outside and boots are required, sandals are out of the question.

Trying to pinpoint the cause of this issue is very frustrating. I switched to VG because it's an easy thing to do and I want to eliminate possible causes wherever I can. If I quit vaping now, the stress will surely be enough to take me back to square one.

 

[aikanae1]

You did mention you were under stress which is why I picked up on it. I know I have multiple allergies, so many that I don't keep track of them all; just the serious ones (life threatening) and try to manage the rest. They aren't that big of a deal. Stress is a much bigger factor. The best thing I can do is be kind to myself.

 

[irony]

Schnarph,
Were you able to figure out what the problem was? I have been suffering with very similar symptoms for several months now and can't seem to pinpoint the problem. I switched to organic VG juice, no change detected. I quit ecigs altogether and no change again, so I started back again. I saw an allergist and they told me I'm not allergic to anything. I continue to break out on my neck, face, and ear-lobes in a rash similar to eczema. I've tried everything from changing my diet to switching my body wash and laundry detergent. Antihistamines don't even work anymore, and nothing seems to stop the itch. I assume that it's ecigs because I only started having these problems since I started vaping, but maybe it's something else. I'm just curious to know if you were able to find relief or if you are in the same boat I am.

 

[Schnarph]

Schnarph,
Were you able to figure out what the problem was? I have been suffering with very similar symptoms for several months now and can't seem to pinpoint the problem. I switched to organic VG juice, no change detected. I quit ecigs altogether and no change again, so I started back again. I saw an allergist and they told me I'm not allergic to anything. I continue to break out on my neck, face, and ear-lobes in a rash similar to eczema. I've tried everything from changing my diet to switching my body wash and laundry detergent. Antihistamines don't even work anymore, and nothing seems to stop the itch. I assume that it's ecigs because I only started having these problems since I started vaping, but maybe it's something else. I'm just curious to know if you were able to find relief or if you are in the same boat I am.

I switched to 100% VG e-liquids. I drink a lot of water every day, as well as coffee in the morning, juice, and the semi-occasional soda. I tried changing my bath soap and laundry detergent but that made no difference as they had little or no PG or perfumes to begin with. I avoid hot water and hot or very warm showers and baths. I put something (natural oils or even regular hand lotion) on my skin after every wash and every time it seems dry. I haven't changed my diet, but I do take Borage Seed oil and a B-Vitamin complex since I found out it could help. I've been avoiding medium to large quantities of citrus as it is a known cause of dyshidrotic eczema. I've been using natural shea butter on my dry skin when it's not itchy and Sarna when it is itchy. I've gotten almost 100% better a 3-4 times, but I have forgotten the once a day regimen when all seemed well and found myself scratching or rubbing itchy areas to the point where raw spot re-emerged. Be gald you don't have this problem on your feet like I do, it is a tough place to take care of if you need to wear shoes. I was doing great 1 week ago other than medium dry skin, and rubbed one foot a little to much in the shower and messed it up too easily. It is almost good agin, maybe a couple more days of anti-biotic ointment with a gauze pad while wearing shoes and I'll be "normal" again.

I really can't be sure that PG has anything to do with my issue, and I'm sure that vaping is not a problem. I am going to continue vaping 100% VG flavored e-liquids for a few more months to see if i can lick the dry skin completely. I will try e-liquid with some PG in it eventually, but I am working on reducing stress and other psychological factors that could easily have been the initial cause of the eczema. From what I have read, it can take many months before the underlying skin problem is completely gone, so if you think you're all better, just keep doing what got you better for a while longer. The usual disclaimer applies- I am not a doctor, I am not following one specific doctors advice, and what works for me may not work for you.

Hydrate your inside and outside. If a particular juice irritates your throat (other than burnt coils), stop using that until you feel totally better and pinpoint the problem. Try not to worry to much about it, the stress itself can make things worse. It sounds corny, but the mental state and skin condition are connected. Good luck, and think positive!

 

[rolygate]

..... I assume that it's ecigs because I only started having these problems since I started vaping, but maybe it's something else. .....

Many people say this, but something much more significant usually happened at the time they started vaping: they stopped smoking tobacco.

The list of symptoms of tobacco withdrawal that some (but not all) people may suffer from is extensive, and far greater than most can imagine. It would be interesting to see if consuming a small amount of Snus daily helps you in any way. There are several active alkaloids in tobacco and more than one has a role in suppressing inflammation, so it might be worth giving it a try. There is even a life-threatening disease that sometimes presents after smoking cessation (ulcerative colitis) that may be triggered by removal of the anti-inflammatory agent/s, so it is an issue that at least deserves consideration.

If you try Snus, make sure to choose a genuine Swedish Snus product, as the health implications are minimal to non-existent on average.

 

[Schnarph]

Many people say this, but something much more significant usually happened at the time they started vaping: they stopped smoking tobacco.

The list of symptoms of tobacco withdrawal that some (but not all) people may suffer from is extensive, and far greater than most can imagine. It would be interesting to see if consuming a small amount of Snus daily helps you in any way. There are several active alkaloids in tobacco and more than one has a role in suppressing inflammation, so it might be worth giving it a try. There is even a life-threatening disease that sometimes presents after smoking cessation (ulcerative colitis) that may be triggered by removal of the anti-inflammatory agent/s, so it is an issue that at least deserves consideration.

If you try Snus, make sure to choose a genuine Swedish Snus product, as the health implications are minimal to non-existent on average.

I find this to be extremely important information, thank you for posting that. I have eliminated PG and a few other things that could have caused my skin problem, but as I have said repeatedly, I don't really know what caused it in the first place. I started this thread mostly to give and receive information about dyshidrotic eczema specifically. Those of us that have experienced physical issues when we quit smoking and started vaping seem to jump to the conclusion that the new issues are related to vaping. It could be extremely hard to pinpoint the cause of my eczema outbreak, but there were many stressful things happening in my life when I quit smoking and started vaping.

However, I do still have a problem with dry skin. I'm drinking plenty of water and I'm not surprised to need hand lotion since many people get drier skin with age. Eczema is treatable but the initial cause or causes can be hard to pinpoint. Dyshidrotic eczema also takes a very long time to recover from without risking a recurrence.

I'm not sure it is necessary to repeat this, but I am not a doctor nor am I following the advice of only one doctor. My issues are likely to have nothing to do with vaping, but I hope my information and experiences can help other vapors with similar skin problems looking for answers. Quitting PG is easy to do, and it's an easy step to take if you think that you might be having a reaction to vaping. On ECF I have read about VG and specific flavor allergies, but I can only report on my own problems and solutions.

 

[irony]

As of yesterday, I've quit vaping altogether. I had already slowly weaned myself off of nicotine over the past year. It was almost too easy and I found that I am mostly psychologically addicted to vaping (like biting your nails). Ultimately, I think I'm probably the best candidate to see if it is really vaping that's causing these symptoms. Hopefully we can rule it out if my symptoms don't subside. Schnarph says that it can take months for the symptoms to subside, so we'll see if I can stay strong that long.

Schnarph, I'm interested to know, have you noticed any weight gain in addition to your other symptoms?

The list of symptoms of tobacco withdrawal that some (but not all) people may suffer from is extensive, and far greater than most can imagine.

These problems only started after vaping, however, I have been strictly vaping and without analogs for over a year now, but my symptoms only started maybe 3 months ago. ejuice is just the only other real change in my life that I can think of. I guess this could go both ways, though.

So rolygate, in your professional opinion (since you are the veteran here ), do you think that this could be the problem even after being tobacco free for over a year?

 

[rolygate]

I guess that in your position I'd try to find a naturopath or nutritionist to work with. There is not enough data to work with here, either in your personal circumstances, or in terms of general knowledge of modern life and diet factors and how they affect some individuals. It's probably impossible to work out direct correlations between different factors as they don't seem related. For example when I stopped consuming dairy products, my hay fever also disappeared - but whether the two were related or not, or some other factor also contributed at the same time, I don't know.

A third party familiar with some of the possibilities may be a good idea, which is why a nutritionist seems suitable, as it could be beneficial to work with someone who might be familiar with resolving issues related to diet or lifestyle. Too much of this whole area is unknown - who can explain why someone who quits smoking can start to develop severe acne a couple of months later, when they never had it as a youth?

Finding a professional who can help you is a bit of a lottery but it's all I can suggest.