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Anti-THR Lies: Ecig proponents need to learn lessons from other activists

Discussion in 'Media and General News' started by BuGlen, Aug 22, 2015.

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  1. englishmick

    englishmick Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Sep 25, 2014
    Naptown, Indiana
    Thanks for answering my questions.

    Generally though, if someone is trying to overthrow an established theory it is up to them to provide the evidence and be persuasive. That's hard to do, and it probably should be. A while back I read the story of how continental drift theory battled its way into the mainstream. It took a long time and a lot of work.

    I've seen enough here to persuade me to put some effort into checking out viruses.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  2. CarolT

    CarolT Super Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 22, 2011
    Madison WI
    Here's an example of anti-smokers claiming that smoking supposedly suppresses immunity by reducing the number of cervical Langerhans cells. But their studies ignored HPV, whose E6, E7 and L2 proteins were the real cause.
    Lies About Smoking and Cervical Cancer
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. CarolT

    CarolT Super Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 22, 2011
    Madison WI
    Their theory is automatically impeached by the fact that they have systematically ignored crucial evidence. This is a done deal, but their juggernaut rumbles on thanks to a conspiracy of silence about it.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. caramel

    caramel Vaping Master

    Dec 23, 2014
    Sounds like "the voice of experience", tell us more about it :laugh:
     
  5. CarolT

    CarolT Super Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 22, 2011
    Madison WI
    The anti-smokers' claim that smoking causes heart disease is the biggest threat to vaping, because they try to implicate nicotine, so they can include vaping as well. As you can see, they're busy already: http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2013-12/asfc-ndc112613.php

    And eventually they'll have some crap population studies, based on lifestyle questionnaires that ignore the role of CMV in heart disease, which will cynically exploit the circumstance that smokers/vapers are more likely to be less wealthy people, and the less-wealthy are more likely to have been exposed to CMV, for socioeconomic reasons (i.e., the people around them are more likely to carry CMV, plus more crowded living conditions). And from that, they'll concoct some ridiculous number of heart disease deaths supposedly caused by vaping.

    Here's the most important study on social class and CMV so far:
    Persistent pathogens linking socioeconomic position and cardiovascular disease in the US. AM Simanek, JB Dowd, AE Aiello. Int J Epidemiol 2009 Jun;38(3):775-87. In NHANES subjects >/=45 years old, "CMV seropositivity was associated with cardiovascular disease history even after adjusting for confounders as well as SEP. The odds of reporting a history of cardiovascular disease for those with less than a high school education compared with those with more than a high school education decreased by 7.7% after adjusting for CMV (Sobel mediation test for CMV, P = 0.0006)." 40% of cardiovascular disease prevalence was attributable to CMV seropositivity.
    Persistent pathogens linking socioeconomic position and cardiovascular disease in the US

    And as noted in the commentary on the study: "With these caveats in mind, the most striking finding of Simanek et al.'s study is that the relatively modest OR of CVD associated with CMV infection translates into an estimate of the population attributable risk or attributable fraction of CVD of ∼ 40%... What is striking about this 40% attributable fraction estimate is the implication that eliminating CMV infection would prevent as many CVD cases as the complete removal of smoking and almost twice as many as the elimination of either hypercholesterolaemia or hypertension from the population." (Commentary: Understanding the pathophysiology of poverty. FJ Nieto. Int J Epidemiol 2009 Jun;38(3):787-790.) And, a major caveat not mentioned is that the study could not consider the age at which people had been infected.
    Commentary: Understanding the pathophysiology of poverty

    However, those supposed smoking related deaths from heart disease are from ignoring the role of CMV! Likewise for their bogus deaths from secondhand smoke, where they get away with claiming it's supposedly nearly as dangerous as firsthand smoke. So it's easy to see that vaping is their next target.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  6. Rossum

    Rossum Surly Curmudgeon Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Dec 14, 2013
    SW VA
    Actually, there's good reason to believe that carbon monoxide causes heart disease, and there's no question that smoke contains substantial amounts of that, while vapor doesn't.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  7. caramel

    caramel Vaping Master

    Dec 23, 2014
    This is akin to studying the correlation between frequentation of (night)bars and clubs and STD, drawing the conclusion that STD are caused by bars. :w00t:
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. caramel

    caramel Vaping Master

    Dec 23, 2014
    Also shifts, shift changes, long hours, changes to "summer time", workplace stress, occupational exposure etc.

    Which of these would a labor camp ban?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. CarolT

    CarolT Super Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 22, 2011
    Madison WI
    Once they get a population study showing little or no reduction in heart disease among vapers (which happens when they ignore CMV), all the protests that vaping is different will come to nothing. Remember how they get away with claiming a ridiculous number of secondhand smoke deaths, despite the protest that the level of exposure is so enormously different.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  10. nicnik

    nicnik Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 20, 2015
    Illinois, USA
    Thanks for this link. I'll try my best to understand it, but I'll probably have questions.
    Edit: And this one: Commentary: Understanding the pathophysiology of poverty Thanks.
     
  11. nicnik

    nicnik Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 20, 2015
    Illinois, USA
    Should we also throw dual users under the bus?
     
  12. nicnik

    nicnik Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 20, 2015
    Illinois, USA
    I trust that you aren't basing your conclusions on a small sample.
     
  13. caramel

    caramel Vaping Master

    Dec 23, 2014
    All these issues are caused by a segment of the population trying to throw another segment under the bus, for personal gain or just because they can.

    We should ban the bus.
     
  14. nicnik

    nicnik Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 20, 2015
    Illinois, USA
    After the reading I've done today, I myself agree with that.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. OldBatty

    OldBatty Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Nov 28, 2014
    North Georgia USA
    Want to thank Rossum for going where I was too chicken to go;) And CarolT for
    answering me up thread. Since you asked...

    First must state I have been happily (and faithfully!) married for almost 30
    years. Never made the association until a few years ago when I saw it
    discussed on another forum. Thought back and since I was a closet smoker
    mostly dated non smokers. Even once had a girlfriend defend me when her mother
    smelled stale smoke on my coat, "Oh both his parents smoke". About a year
    before I met my wife briefly dated a smoker for the very first time. Needless
    to say the rumors are true:rolleyes:

    Oh, the age in my profile is wrong, was in my early 20s not late teens when
    this happened.
     
  16. stevegmu

    stevegmu Moved On ECF Veteran

    This is true...
     
  17. WorksForMe

    WorksForMe Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Sep 21, 2012
    N.N., Virginia

    Of course not. I chose those words very poorly. I don't want to throw anybody under the bus. I used to be a smoker and then a dual user myself. I also have lots of friends and family that smoke. Having said that, I want to keep vaping as we know it legal and affordable. I don’t just want that for me; I have enough gear and DIY supplies to last most of the rest of my life. I’m most concerned about new vapers and smokers that might make the switch in the future.

    I’m not sure what to think about this infection theory. With a lot more research and time it may be proved and shown to the world, but I don’t see that happening any time soon.
     
    • Like Like x 6
  18. nicnik

    nicnik Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 20, 2015
    Illinois, USA
    I've now read some of your website, and done a bunch of googling today. Google led to a lot of PubMed articles, and I see you're right that it's a good place to look. The searches also led me to a lot of general info about viruses and cancer, and it was very helpful for me as background to seeing how neglected this subject is in smoking/cancer research.

    It's clear to me that stupidity as the cause of this neglect is extremely far-fetched, and I'm left believeing that the most likely explanation is the same as for the other misinformation and bad science regarding smoking, smokeless tobacco and vaping. In part, it's another case of not asking the right questions, likely intentional.

    Somehow, this all needs to be incorporated together to fight the fight. I'm new to this part of it, and with more info I could possibly see it differently, but I have trouble imagining what sort of info would change my current opinion that more research is needed, and better, more honest research at that. That along with more honest communication of what the research tells us. And informing people of this need.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  19. nicnik

    nicnik Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 20, 2015
    Illinois, USA
    Looks like I got confused by numbers. I'm not sure that statement is accurate, afterall. I'd still like to hear if CarolT agrees what I put in bold, and I'm certainly interested in any accompanying relevant info.
     
  20. nicnik

    nicnik Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 20, 2015
    Illinois, USA
    Or this?
    The Story of Human Cytomegalovirus and Cancer: Increasing Evidence and Open Questions
     
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