Any good critical thinkers here?

[Kate]

I'm finding it difficult to wade through the mounds of information, misinformation, claims, research, assumptions, marketing, facts, lies, myths, reports, hype, and all the stuff on this forum.

There was a time when I was secure in the knowledge that I knew nothing ... then I hung around here a while and started trying to get perspective. Now I still know nothing but in a far more informed and confused way

It seems to me that we really could be doing with more honest, accurate information, even if it doesn't sound favourable towards our beloved habit. Armed with truth we can make informed decisions and represent ourselves in an intelligent way instead of knee jerk 'well it just has to be good' reactions.

Can anyone give me some tips on critical thinking to help me wade through some of the crap here?

I found this link and will have a go at trying to learn a better way of approaching the forum - Critical Thinking On The Web

Ultimately I'd like to be able to carry on vaping in an enjoyable way without unnecessary interference from antis or authorities. In the long term I can only see that happening if we can win the moral battle and prove that we are capable of making our own rational choices even if there is some element of risk - much in the way dangerous sports are tolerated.

 

[DCrist721]

Just read as much as you can and don't let other people influence your opinion. I read the synapsis of the Ruyan tests conducted in New Zealand and though, "okay, this is good, although it was still completely funded by Ruyan, but at least it's a test and they say it's relatively safe." But then I actually took a couple of hours to read the full report and it's all bullsh*t. There's really nothing in the report that indicates that e-cigs are safe to use, in fact, I would say if anything, the report shows that they are unsafe or that we don't know nearly enough to determine the safety. I'll try to find my posts about this that brought up some of the more important parts of the report.

 

[tribalmasters]

I probably can't manage to read 5 percent of the stuff on here anymore! When a newbie has a question chances are its answered, the news just flows so quickly so much to read!

 

[frogbmth]

Ok think about this. Fact is only accepted opinion. Us scientists announce to the world that something is 'fact' when a theory is widely accepted and believed correct. Many, many times we have later changed our 'truth' to another alternative version. Worst of all, often there are vested interest in published the truth.

The same is true here, people have opinion and theory. When an opinion or theory is widely accepted, we start to feel that it is fact. When a theory fits what we wish to believe, accepting it as fact becomes easier.

One difference is that a good scientist enjoys being called a liar, it is an opportunity to investigate further and strengthen a theory. Try to be one of those, question yourself and others and do not be afraid of being a sole voice of heresy.

 

[wv2win]

Kate, I know this won't help, so I apologize up front.

When you mentioned not having interference from the anti's, I tried to picture you walking through a crowd of anti's, vaping with one hand and holding a 9 millimeter semi-automatic in the other hand. Kind of a Clint Eastwood moment!

 

[strayling]

Temporarily switch off your emotions and realise that you¹ may sometimes be wrong. If that proves to be the case accept it, admit it, learn from it, and move on.

Maintain a sense of humour at all times.

¹ Not me.

 

[Kate]

... and a thick skin Stray

Andy said this:
"When an opinion or theory is widely accepted, we start to feel that it is fact. When a theory fits what we wish to believe, accepting it as fact becomes easier."

The definition of fact and truth is one of my worries. I wonder if we might have a problem in the community with 'groupthink' - "Groups experiencing groupthink do not consider all alternatives and they desire unanimity at the expense of quality decisions."
Group Thinking

Could we be censoring inconvenient 'facts' because we prefer our own manufactured 'truths'?


The systers will watch over us WV

 

[DMacRae]

You might like this, Kate:

Foundation for Critical Thinking: Books, Conferences and Academic Resources for Educators and Students.

 

[strayling]

Could we be censoring inconvenient 'facts' because we prefer our own manufactured 'truths'?

It's a real danger. That's why I like that we have a mix of optimists and pessimists here. The truth is usually somewhere in the middle in my experience - shoot for the moon, but settle for L5 or something like that.

 

[seminolewind]

Hi. I loved to smoke. Gave it up. Now I love to vape. It might have something to do with being a type A. Some people have addictive genes. At least vaping is the least harmful or safest, if you will addiction I can think of.
This mb is for support and info.
I stood behind a lady in the post office today, 20 minutes she's chatting on the cell phone. Makes me crazy. Then she gets up there to mail a small package for someone and has to call them over something costing a buck or two. I wished I had my PV with me and annoy the **** out of her.

If anyone approached me to whine about my steam, I would say to them, Hey I quit smoking after 30 years, and now I inhale flavored steam, and now THAT ANNOYS YOU!!!

I will be polite with my vaping unless provoked. Just like some stranger lecturing me on cigarettes. I will ask if they mind me sucking steam if the situation calls for it.

Kate, I can't think of ONE reson that someone would find fault with my sucking flavored steam. If they do, they're wrong.

Any health, political, or so on, pick and choose the ones you want to investigate for yourself.

I personally avoid anything about the health aspects cause smoking analogs was far far worse. I just enjoy it. If I don't vape I will go back to smoking. That's the truth.

On the web, take everything with a grain of salt. And know that the Government is mad cause sometimes people beat them at their own game. Like shopping on the internet, they are mad about that too.

The big guns who want it stopped, well, let's see,
Gov- a money thing
Tobacco companies-a money thing
Hospitals, doctors, etc-a money thing, less sick people.
People looking for a problem or complaining about analog smokers ,and now steam suckers- we beat them at their own game, and now they're just plain mad.

 

[Caesarea]

It's a real danger. That's why I like that we have a mix of optimists and pessimists here. The truth is usually somewhere in the middle in my experience - shoot for the moon, but settle for L5 or something like that.

I'm too tired to chase the quote, but someone asked: are you a weeping optimist or a laughing pessimist?

I'm rather fond of both types..

 

[frogbmth]

At least vaping is the least harmful or safest, if you will addiction I can think of.

How do you know this? Its not steam you are vaping and blowing out, it is a chemical mixture. We do not know the composition of it or the effects to health it has. In five years we could all have lung disease from it. I know you wont like me posting this, but nobody here can say that it isn't possible. Many people here swear that it is low risk, better than analogs etc etc but truth is, we know nothing of the sort

 

[strayling]

I'm too tired to chase the quote, but someone asked: are you a weeping optimist or a laughing pessimist?

I'm rather fond of both types..

I like it, although I'm getting dizzy trying to figure out which one I'm closest to.

 

[Caesarea]

I like it, although I'm getting dizzy trying to figure out which one I'm closest to.

I think it's like most paradoxes: the extremes touch and run into each other...

don't get dizzy...just oscillate gently..

 

[strayling]

How do you know this? Its not steam you are vaping and blowing out, it is a chemical mixture. We do not know the composition of it or the effects to health it has. In five years we could all have lung disease from it. I know you wont like me posting this, but nobody here can say that it isn't possible. Many people here swear that it is low risk, better than analogs etc etc but truth is, we know nothing of the sort

It would be unrealistic to assume that it's more harmful than inhaling tobacco smoke.

You're also reaching a bit saying that the composition is unknown. It's PG, food flavouring, nicotine and water. We know that vapourising PG is ok. Ditto for water. Nicotine isn't exactly benign, but that's due to its addictive properties more than anything else. That leaves the food flavouring, which is safe to eat after being cooked at high temperature so the small quantities in vapour are likely to be ok.

Yes, formal testing would be nice as would purity standards. Please don't buy into scare tactics to send people back to smoking tobacco though. That's almost guaranteed to cause harm.

Edit: Sorry for getting sidetracked. I'm sure we'll discuss this in a more relevant thread soon and I promise not to reply on this topic in this one.

 

[Kate]

This is the claim Andy was responding to Stray:
"At least vaping is the least harmful or safest, if you will addiction I can think of."

He didn't "... assume that it's more harmful than inhaling tobacco smoke."

I tend to agree with him, it is possible that we'll get lung disease, we just don't know.

Thanks for the link DMacRae, I'll have a look.

 

[frogbmth]

I wonder why you think that me saying that the possibility of vaping being harmful is seen as a scare mongering? We do not know the composition of many juices. You might like to think we do, but we do not. I do agree that the flavourings are likely the biggest concern in these juices. Do not mistake the safety of something for consumption to be equal to it being safe to inhale.

Probably the safe thing to do is give up vaping and smoking analogs. Quit all together.

We also do not know whether vaping e-liquid is less harmful than vaporizing organic leaf tobacco, something I have returned to and something with a solid scientific foundation. Many agree that it is overwhelmingly the combustion of tobacco carrying the main health risk.

I am not meaning to put anybody off making their choices, but everybody should be aware of the limitations of our 'knowledge' and see a balanced presentation of opinion.

I personally do think that vaping likely carries a tiny fraction of the risk of smoking tobacco, but the key word is 'likely'.

 

[strayling]

This is the claim Andy was responding to Stray:
"At least vaping is the least harmful or safest, if you will addiction I can think of."

Got it. I just didn't want to let the one side go unanswered. Nothing personal, Andy, just striving for balance.

 

[frogbmth]

Not at all, I very much enjoy good debate and both sides need to be heard. I love to be questioned and I love to question others. Then we all know our understanding is based on evaluation of the whole picture. Andy

 

[strayling]

I personally do think that vaping likely carries a tiny fraction of the risk of smoking tobacco, but the key word is 'likely'.

Yep Critical thinking requires that we avoid absolutes when dealing with unknowns - all we can do is assign probabilities according to the information we have.

(See how I tried to get back on-topic there )