Anybody Using A Kabuki?

[HBcorpse]

Us as well, ENAUD. Stocked and ready to rocked. Lots o' nic, pop in coils, tanks, mods, batts, and bling. Bring it. <nod>




HB, I'm a bit confused about what you said. Do you have further info on this? (particularly the statement that the FDA has "proposed" this and it can't be enforced until they answer to Congress?)

From what I've seen, the FDA is already sending out invitations (ha ha) to vape shops to come an inspect the goings on.

Federal Register | Tobacco Product Manufacturing Facility Visits

I'm afraid your sources are misinformed, HB. As we stand today, in a state of "Ramses", for lack of a better term ("And so it is written... ").

" I'll take Obscure Biblical Movie Quotes for $200, Alex. "

From what I've read, and discussed with "politically/legally-minded" people that I know, the FDA can propose these regs all they want...but they are not an authoritarian figure and have no right to enforce their regulations until Congress has reviewed and approved said regs.

Therefore, the proposed date of 8/8/16 is just that. Proposed.
Congress has formally requested the FDA appear before them to do whatever it is they'll do in that meeting.
But the FDA has yet to even RSVP to that party...which means, regardless of what they're telling the rest of the world, they don't have the go-ahead for their regs to become reality.
Now, does that mean the regs won't be fast-tracked through whatever legal processes are necessary, and held up for enforcement ASAP? No.
But, the FDA is not a governing(?) agency, and still requires all kinds of legal-ness to happen, before their regulations become any kind of enforceable law/whatever.

Please, someone with a better take on this explain? I feel like I'm saying it wrong, even though I know what I mean.

Basically, the FDA can't just WILL their findings/deemings upon the people.

@Knife care to weigh in? I think you've got a good handle on these things, no pun intended!

 

[ENAUD]

From what I've read, and discussed with "politically/legally-minded" people that I know, the FDA can propose these regs all they want...but they are not an authoritarian figure and have no right to enforce their regulations until Congress has reviewed and approved said regs.

Therefore, the proposed date of 8/8/16 is just that. Proposed.
Congress has formally requested the FDA appear before them to do whatever it is they'll do in that meeting.
But the FDA has yet to even RSVP to that party...which means, regardless of what they're telling the rest of the world, they don't have the go-ahead for their regs to become reality.
Now, does that mean the regs won't be fast-tracked through whatever legal processes are necessary, and held up for enforcement ASAP? No.
But, the FDA is not a governing(?) agency, and still requires all kinds of legal-ness to happen, before their regulations become any kind of enforceable law/whatever.

Please, someone with a better take on this explain? I feel like I'm saying it wrong, even though I know what I mean.

Basically, the FDA can't just WILL their findings/deemings upon the people.

@Knife care to weigh in? I think you've got a good handle on these things, no pun intended!

They are attempting to use the powers granted them here:Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, to bring all vape devices under their control by "deeming" them as tobacco products. They did create said regulations and filed them into the national register as law, whether they have the actual authority to do such, will probably be decided in the court system, or through some other legislative means from the Houses.

For reference on a bad policy that can stick and cause great harm, read up on this guy:Harry J. Anslinger - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, and think about the implications and correlations of how the FDA, CDC, American Lung Assn. Et all have spread disinformation and misinterpreted data to the general public through the media. It appears that they used Mr Anslinger's example as a playbook.

 

[DPLongo22]

From what I've read, and discussed with "politically/legally-minded" people that I know, the FDA can propose these regs all they want...but they are not an authoritarian figure and have no right to enforce their regulations until Congress has reviewed and approved said regs.

Therefore, the proposed date of 8/8/16 is just that. Proposed.
Congress has formally requested the FDA appear before them to do whatever it is they'll do in that meeting.
But the FDA has yet to even RSVP to that party...which means, regardless of what they're telling the rest of the world, they don't have the go-ahead for their regs to become reality.
Now, does that mean the regs won't be fast-tracked through whatever legal processes are necessary, and held up for enforcement ASAP? No.
But, the FDA is not a governing(?) agency, and still requires all kinds of legal-ness to happen, before their regulations become any kind of enforceable law/whatever.

Please, someone with a better take on this explain? I feel like I'm saying it wrong, even though I know what I mean.

Basically, the FDA can't just WILL their findings/deemings upon the people.

@Knife care to weigh in? I think you've got a good handle on these things, no pun intended!

Technically, they claimed authority (in one of the broadest examples of overreach in our history), and will continue unimpeded unless STOPPED by Congress. To date, nothing done will serve the purpose of said stoppage. It's POSSIBLE that Sen. Johnson will attempt to do so, if not responded to accordingly, but that's purely conjecture at this point.

Both HR2058 and the Cole-Bishop Amendment would move the predicate date, IF moved into law, but neither of those is a certainty, and neither stops the FDA from assuming authoritative control. HR2058 is all-encompassing, while C-B hands some control over to the FDA in the process of moving the date.

Both are good options, but I'd prefer the all-encompassing one (if pressed).

No further approvals are necessary for them to begin shutting things down. Our actions and activities will either (a) bring them to a halt, (b) slow them down, or (c) do absolutely nothing at all. At this moment we do not yet know the outcome.

Vote wisely.

 

[DPLongo22]

Basically, the FDA can't just WILL their findings/deemings upon the people.

And I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but...

Yes, they can. And they do. Often. TOO often (for someone of my political leanings).

Vote wisely.

 

[Katdarling]

FDA Laws, Regulations, and Guidance Documents

 

[Katdarling]

Compliance, Enforcement & Training

 

[ENAUD]

FDA Laws, Regulations, and Guidance Documents

I'm still angry at the way colchicine got handled under the orphan drug act. This most effective gout medication was used forever, and used to cost about .20 cents for a pill. Then a drug company ran it through the FDA hoops and got approval, overnight the price went to about 5$ a pill, and nothing really changed in the formulation of it. It would be like aspirin all of a sudden being handed over to one company and them being able to up the price to whatever they wanted. SMH

 

[Mike Geaney]

I finally broke a Quartz tank today while reassembling one of my K's. Not sure it would have happened had I lubed the O-rings first. Live and learn. Luckily I had a spare. Now to re-order and get some of those o-rings I have heard others praising.

 

[Jim-]

Make no mistake, while this administration is in power there will be NO action taken to stop or impede the lawless overreach by agencies such as the FDA, IRS, CDC, EPA etc. What they have been unable to accomplish by way of a legal bill passed through both houses and signed by the POTUS they have instead used the above agencies to skirt the will of the people and the constraints of our Constitution. They are shameless bureaucrats who have been set loose on the people by a President who thinks the laws of the land do not apply to him. It will literally take an act of congress to bring an end to this and I have exactly Zero confidence in that corrupt band of idiots. Your vote does matter, unfortunately the rest of us have to live with it.

 

[Knifemaker]

Folks, ZEN is just fine. With the new ZNA, he is working tirelessly to not have the usual snafu we are all so use to, that we either don''s notice it, or somehow think it is a good thing.

I'm referring to the usual V 1.0-1.1-1.2 to version V2.o thing we see all the time. We see it on almost all vape devices. We are led to believe it is yet another improvement, that we Just must have. When in reality, it is usually nothing more than a fix for a design flaw, as the product was brought to market well before it was ready.

Zen doesn't want to play this game with his followers. Nor does he want to bring out a new device that would need to be "Fixed" as soon as it arrives, especially with the impending reg's. (Make that "Possible Reg's", as nothing is set in stone yet)!

Zen is more interesting in providing "We the Vaping Community" with a well built, researched, and executed device, far more than he is worrying about making a profit.
His philosophy has always been to help us keep off the coffin nails.

Sure would be nice if our own Government cared as much for us, the Citizens as it's it does for its own greed for under the table bribes, kickbacks and power!

Knife

 

[Katdarling]

(Make that "Possible Reg's", as nothing is set in stone yet)!

Possible? Please explain.

 

[NotSoMini]

I had a very short chat with Zen and Stacie a couple of weeks ago. They are both doing fine except very busy. The call had to do with something I wanted. No discussion on what Zen is working on nor did I ask.

 

[HBcorpse]

Possible? Please explain.

I have no intention to speak for another, but I do believe he is referring to what I was unable to effectively explain in my posts about the FDA's behavior in ignoring Congress.

 

[coldgin96]

I want what you guys are vaping...

THOSE REGS ARE TAKING EFFECT unless someone or something changes or stops them.

 

[Knifemaker]

Simply put Coldgin would be correct if there were no credible challenge, however, there is quite a bit being done to do exactly that.

If unchallenged, it would indeed go into effect forthwith. However, it "IS" being challenged.

The Senate Committee has requested the FDA to appear before them, and they refused. (Didn't show up, nor respond). This Committee is the Committee on Homeland Security. so they have a bit more than a little clout.

Zen explained to me, that this is normal. As it isn't a formal request. And in being informal, they would not be able to bring their lawyers and evidence to bare at the meeting.

The next step is a formal Demand to appear before them. This cannot be ignored without consequences. Which gives the Committee the right to charge them with contempt. Not that they would, but it is possible.

It also allows the FDA to fully present their case. Which they will have to do to get thru this.

In refusing, they gave up a LOT credibility, as to what they are hiding in not complying, and gives the Committee the right to hold Senate hearings, and to kick it up to Congress. Who does have the ability to kick it out completely.

Add to this, there are numerous Lawsuits, on a Federal Level, both asking the Federal Court to throw the Reg out.
Failing that, there are pending Suites to force the FDA to add a "Grandfather Clause" which would, push the implementation of the Ret's if so passed, further down the road, By several years.

So the fight is not over by a long shot. The sky has not yet fallen as it were!

Keep the Faith Fellow Vapers. Don't panic and abandon ship before the first shot is fired in the impending battle!






Knife

 

[DPLongo22]

The next step is a formal Demand to appear before them. This cannot be ignored without consequences. Which gives the Committee the right to charge them with contempt. Not that they would, but it is possible.

Everything Knife states is correct, with the essential part being what I quoted above.

At issue there is the fact that there are a ton of "Ifs" still rolling around. The problem with that is that it also makes Gin's statement ("THOSE REGS ARE TAKING EFFECT unless someone or something changes or stops them,") 100% correct.

IF Sen. Johnson pursues everything at his disposal, the regs will be stopped. So far, I've seen absolutely nothing that makes me question his intentions. Unfortunately, this is STILL politics, so it could also fall totally flat, at any time, and the hammer will fall.

At THIS moment, if absolutely nothing else transpires, the hammer falls. Something needs to stop it, and that's where the discomfort comes (stoppage still pending).

Ultimately I believe that common sense will win out. Whether that's before the regs take effect (which they will, at this point) or after, I do not know. It might be five minutes from now, or possibly five years.

Something? Nothing? Nobody knows.

But businesses have already closed their doors, and that's a bad thing.

More to follow?

Power corrupts / Vote wisely.

 

[Katdarling]

From what I've gleaned, the request in both 2058 and CB ask that the grandfather date be changed to August of this year from Feb. of 2007.

In terms of the lawsuits, we all are definitely looking at their strengths (in terms of stoppage). The complaint that was filed yesterday by the e-vaping Coalition of America gives me great hope. There are a slew of plaintiffs on board, and from the most well-known of our advocacy groups.

"On behalf of the E-Vapor Industry, tonight we filed the attached Complaint in the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia challenging portions of FDA’s Deeming Regulation and the Tobacco Control Act on various constitutional and administrative grounds."

The 8 counts of violations are VERY interesting. You can see the details of the complaint here:

E-Vaping Coalition of America Strikes Back Against the FDA | Electronic Vaping Coalition of America

 

[coldgin96]

At issue there is the fact that there are a ton of "Ifs" still rolling around. The problem with that is that it also makes Gin's statement ("THOSE REGS ARE TAKING EFFECT unless someone or something changes or stops them,") 100% correct.

Thank you.

 

[NotSoMini]

For your your listening pleasure if you have the time. This was posted on another forum in case you have not seen it. The first three minutes is music if you want to bypass this.

"Dimitris ( COO of Mountain Oak Vapers and President of Tennessee Smoke Free Association ) interviews Azim Chowdhuri lead attorney ( Keller and Heckman ) on the case ( starts at min. 12 ). Lots of good info on the implications of the deemings as well."

#smokefreeradio "Industry Lawsuit" May 24, 2016

 

[Jim-]

On a lil less grim note, found this Kabuki trinket floating around FT. Not seen one before. Anyone that has one care to comment on quality?