Apollo's LavaTube Kit - Battery/Charger concerns

[SubSplat]

Got my lavatube package from Apollo ecigs today, and very excited about the device itself. But all the talk about exploding batteries has me concerned. In particular, from what I understand, especially VV devices like the lavatube should only be run with IMR/LiMn batteries and that these types of batteries require special chargers.



The Apollo website cites the batteries as follows:
"High Drain 2200mah 18650 rechargeable Lithion battery"

The battery is just wrapped in semi-translucent red plastic, and bears only what appear to be some serial numbers underneath the wrapper. No brand name, no capacity indication, or any other information.

The charger is also generic. On the back it says:
"18650 Battery Charger
Model: HR-168
...
Output: 4.2V DC 800mA"

On the front, where the battery goes, it is beveled with "+ 18650Li-ion -".



I know that all ecig batteries are technically "Li-Ion"... but that term is usually used to refer to LiCo chemistry, not LiMn. Aren't only LiMn batteries able to be high drain? Or is that a misconception on my part? Could this battery and charger be LiMn, but just labelled as Li-ion?

If someone could shed some light on whether there's cause for concern here, that would be awesome.

Edit: Oh, and no mention of being protected anywhere. I don't see the strip anywhere under the translucent wrapper either. But there are vent holes on the positive end.

 

[Off Topic]

If it came with the Lavatube kit, It is surely a protected battery.

It's not a bad idea to set your charger in a metal pan. It's not likely that a Li-ion battery will fry while charging, but if you are that one in 10 million winners...you won't have a big burn mark on the floor.

 

[bigtiime]

If the battery and charger came with your LT then your direction should be to Apollo's CS with your concerns. With that said, any battery that you have in your home or automobile can "have a bad day". Doesn't matter if it's a rechargeable or not. it can still become unstable and vent or explode.

 

[jslick_007]

anyone ever get confirmation from apollo on whether or not the battery that came with their version of the lavatube is LiMn?

 

[gumchewer]

Got my lavatube package from Apollo ecigs today, and very excited about the device itself. But all the talk about exploding batteries has me concerned. In particular, from what I understand, especially VV devices like the lavatube should only be run with IMR/LiMn batteries and that these types of batteries require special chargers.



The Apollo website cites the batteries as follows:
"High Drain 2200mah 18650 rechargeable Lithion battery"

The battery is just wrapped in semi-translucent red plastic, and bears only what appear to be some serial numbers underneath the wrapper. No brand name, no capacity indication, or any other information.

The charger is also generic. On the back it says:
"18650 Battery Charger
Model: HR-168
...
Output: 4.2V DC 800mA"

On the front, where the battery goes, it is beveled with "+ 18650Li-ion -".



I just bought one from LeCig, exactly the same description, I would not change a word.
I cant find any info on the charger except one you tube video showing how to use it.
I think I did track down the battery here, It has a B on it above the serial number?

http://www.chinatownmart.com/high-quality-37v-18650-3000mah-rechargeable-liion-battery_p15556.html

LeCigs response from a support agent was

" The unprotected bats it comes with will work fine, the unit and the charger have the same protection built into it. "

sure they will work. I want them to work safely.
There was no info on the advertisement that stated un-protected bats.

 

[sailorman]

I have the same kit from Apollo. I also know a fair deal about batteries.
These batts are IMR. They don't need to be protected with a built in PCB like an Ultrafire for example.
A protected lithium ion battery will not fit in your Lavatube because of the extra length the PCB creates.


They may not be the highest quality AW IMR's, but they ARE IMR's nonetheless and the chemistry is as safe as you're going to get in any lithium ion battery. That's why you don't need a seperate cutoff circuit inside the battery.

The "safety" in the charger they are referring to is a cutoff when the proper voltage is reached, to prevent overcharging.

LiMn/IMR batteries require a "special" charger only in that it is specially made for 3.7V lithium ion batteries. If you try to charge these on a charger made for a 3V lithium battery, or a 3.4V lithium battery (like your cellphone) the full capacity will never be reached.

What they mean is, don't be an idiot and try to cram these in the EveryReady charger you use for your flashlight batteries.

The charger is the exact same model I have had for almost 10 years now and that I have used to charge other 3.7V Lithium 18650's I have. These are common generic chargers that are supplied with all kinds of devices that use 18650 sized lithium ion batteries. There is no difference between what a 3.7V IMR battery and a 3.7V Lithium Ion battery needs in terms of chargers. The capacity of the battery makes no difference, except that a very low capacity battery will charge very fast and a high capacity will charge very slow. Your battery should fully charge in about 2.5 hours. It may take longer though, because this charger takes a long time to pump it up to that last .2 volts or so. If you take it off the charger in 2.5 hours from being empty, it will probably read about 4.0 volts. When fully charged, it should read 4.2V +/- 0.05V, but no more than 4.25V. If you don't have a multimeter, get one. Meanwhile, you can use the meter in your lavatube. Push the red button 6 times and it will give you the voltage of the battery. Rest easy. Use it. Plug it in before you insert the battery. Don't leave the battery overnight or long after the light turns green. Unless it is defective, it's as safe as you're going to get while charging a Lithium battery.

Don't charge on a flammable surface. Charge outdoors, under shelter like a porch or patio if you can. Plug your charger into a timer and set it for, say, 3 hours. Adjust as necessary. If you are truly paranoid, you can get a sack specifically made to charge LIPO's in, which are FAR more volatile. They're about $10-20. Overkill, IMO, but whatever makes you sleep better.

The best thing you can do regarding battery safety is learn about batteries.
www.Batteryuniversity.com

Edit: To answer your ?: Li-ion and Li-Co can also be high drain, but that's not a precise term. LiIon and LiCo batteries need the protection circuit built in, especially for high drain applications. LiMn's don't. Therefore, only IMR LiMn's can be used in your LT because the others are too long. In reality, you could use a LiIon or LiCo battery in any ecig. I do it all the time, but not in the Lavatube.

 

[gumchewer]

They may not be the highest quality AW IMR's, but they ARE IMR's nonetheless and the chemistry is as safe as you're going to get in any lithium ion battery. That's why you don't need a seperate cutoff circuit inside the battery.

They are panasonic actually. Vendor told me so. Unless Panasonic is made by IMR, don't know what they do over there..

That's why you don't need a seperate cutoff circuit inside the battery.

I think the concern is if the battery it self craps the bed, by the time the device shuts down, the battery may be in thermal runaway?

 

[tokarev]

IMR is not a brand name, it just means the battery is LiMn chemistry. The abbreviation ICH would indicate LiCo chemistry. I'm not sure if there is an abbreviation for LiFePo4 batteries, but since they are only 3V they aren't hard to identify. Beware of counterfit IRM batteries. There are numerous reports of cheap LiCo unprotected batteries being labeled and sold as IMR.

Protected LiCo batteries can still fail catastrophically. If the protection circuit fails, the battery can still "vent with flame". IMR (LiMn) batteries are the safest option since their failure mode is reported to be somewhat less "dramatic".

 

[sailorman]

What he said. IMR is simply a designation, not a brand. I think AW's are made by Sanyo. Panasonic makes a fine battery. One way you know it's not an AW IMR is that AW doesn't make a 2200mah IMR. Although there are a million labels on batteries (or no label at all) there are far fewer actual manufactuers than you might think. IIRC, I read that there are three or four manufacturers responsible for something like 70% of the batteries on the market. Everything else is just a label.

Any lithium battery can fail. It's a matter of a low risk of a big dramatic failure, or an even lower risk of a less dramatic failure. That said, I'd rather use a very high quality protected Li-Ion than a cheap IMR. But with the Lavatube, you don't have the option to use a protected LiIon, no matter what the quality. Your 2200mah is an upgrade from what I got with my kit. I got 1600mah IMR's and I have no clue who made them.

 

[gumchewer]

IMR is not a brand name, it just means the battery is LiMn chemistry.

LOL, all these letters are confusing. I confused IMR with AW.

Yeah at any rate as they say, it is what it is.
Apperently you can buy your batteries straight from a deciple on a horse and the charger can blow up.
There is NO utopia.