Are "organic" e-liquids/flavorings more hazardous than artificial?

[firephly]

I'm already fully aware that "natural" can mean all sorts of things, and has no specific definition, per se..

That said, "organic" does...


When it comes to food & beverages, I can most certainly notice the difference in all sorts of way.. I've been eating organic for about 50% of my diet, for a number of years now... Would love to go 100%, but just not feasible for me these days for all sorts of reasons

I also notice a positive taste & performance difference with e-liquid made from ingredients which fall under the same category, as well..


Not for nothing, but going back 100, 150 years ago, it was pretty rare for people to get/die from certain diseases that are pretty common these days... Why is that? Perhaps a number of reasons.. one possibility is all the chemicals that we're now widely exposed to on a daily basis, which people weren't back then


Anyway, as for those who do their own extractions... Some of these people were educated & professionally employed in this field -- before striking out on their own as vaping became more widespread.. I would trust them a lot more than those who just "wing it"

Only issue, of course, is trying to find out as much as you can about who is making these ingredients/flavorings/extractions/e-liquids

Obviously easier said than done, oftentimes..

Jake at Nude Nicotine does his own flavor extractions, he's a chemist by trade, his thread is interesting, and his patchoili vanilla is the best vanilla (you don't notice the patchouli) http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...your-nn-chemistry-related-questions-here.html

He gives you a detailed print out of the chemical analysis of your juice with every order, a sample can be seen on the site
» Nude Nicotine Certificate of Analysis

 

[aikanae1]

I like NN's line. I'm also getting in FSV next week and hopefully testing Tetra's out the following week. So we're all on the same track here. I'm glad to hear you like FSV. I have a major coconut craving to satisfy.

 

[firephly]

I like NN's line. I'm also getting in FSV next week and hopefully testing Tetra's out the following week. So we're all on the same track here. I'm glad to hear you like FSV. I have a major coconut craving to satisfy.

i love the nilsson from FSV, give it a week or more for the lime to calm down, give most of theirs a week or so.

have you tried shipwreck from ahlusion? i told them i like strong flavors and wow the coconut in it is coconut lovers heaven

nirvana vapor's kali's coconut burfi is good too

 

[Gato del Jugo]

Yeah, right. Flavoring companies are very secretive. That's why eliquid vendors can be caught off guard about what's in their products unless they independently test. Generally, eliquid vendors just accept whatever the flavoring manufacturers tell them.

There's gotta be a new PG free line of flavors opened up recently and not selling retail because there's several new eliquids using flavors that weren't available before. I'd sure like to know where those are coming from. That might validate all this organic/natural stuff (or not).

It's kinda funny with the VG. One company advertises "Palm" being the best source and another advertises theirs is special because it's only "Soy" based. I've never heard that nicotine "was more poisioness than arsenic" before (Orb). Sometimes I wonder who's side they are on.

The thing with USDA certified organic, is that, among a host of other procedures which need to be followed, there's a paper trail requirement -- that goes all the way back to the raw-material grower.. Every entity that touches it along the way, even wholesale distributors, has to be certified... That chain is traceable, must be recorded every step of the way, and can't be broken


As for where these flavorings are coming from, juice-makers are between a rock & a hard place... Consumers want to know -- yet at the same time, many feel the need to protect their trade secrets from competition... Unfortunately for us, most probably err on the side of caution... Then again, some experienced hardcore DIY'ers claim they can pick out which brand flavorings are being used by certain commercial juice-makers, just by vaping it... And then you've got some juice-makers who are doing some/all of their own extractions... There's just so much out there these days, with more & more coming online every month, with so many variables

Eventually, though, I think the market and/or the government will at some point start forcing the issue a lot more.. and that's when you might see more USDA organic labels start popping up... It really is an expensive pain, as I mentioned.. and these days, I think most juice-makers worth their salt are too busy just trying to keep up with ever-increasing demand, to be "worried" about that kind of stuff right now


As for palm vs. soy vs. others, I believe palm is king, at least for vaping purposes..

And as for nic vs. arsenic? Couldn't tell you for sure.. but I do know that pure straight nic -- close to 1000mg/ml -- is dangerous as all heck, one of the most lethal poisons around... Obviously only a tiny amount of people handle this stuff, in probably only a handful of very-controlled lab environments with special permits & what-not... Heck, even a diluted tenth of that, at 100mg/ml, which is available to a DIY'er, is pretty dangerous, and needs to be handled with safety precautions... While I might not exactly agree with how & why Orb went about presenting it, I don't think they're that far from the truth, either...

 

[Gato del Jugo]

All of these are very natural tasting with no hint of anything artificial or chemical at all. The texture of the vapor has a softness that is nice also, not creamy but soft and pillowy.

Thanks for the suggestions..


And I know all too well about that yummy natural taste.. as well as that "soft & pillowy" sensation -- excellent description!

 

[Gato del Jugo]

Jake at Nude Nicotine does his own flavor extractions, he's a chemist by trade, his thread is interesting, and his patchoili vanilla is the best vanilla (you don't notice the patchouli) http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...your-nn-chemistry-related-questions-here.html

He gives you a detailed print out of the chemical analysis of your juice with every order, a sample can be seen on the site
» Nude Nicotine Certificate of Analysis

Yep, several months ago when I was considering DIY, I came across NN & was thinking of going with them for base & possibly flavorings..

I like the analysis aspect..

 

[Gato del Jugo]

So I thought I would start a thread to gather some info from this community and gather your facts/opinions on this subject. As mentioned above, please keep your replies relative to the term "organic" as it relates to the safety of e-liquids and flavorings.

So how are we doing so far?

Too off-track yet?

 

[hazarada]

Organic doesn't have anything to do with healthy or not. By its definition it means that something came from a living organism. So.. sugar can be described as organic but so can tar or ricin.

Inorganic simply means that that the molecule in question doesn't have organic origins.

Artificial molecules are no different from their naturally occurring counterparts. By definition it means something that came to be through the willful manipulation of matter by an intelligence.

Trying to put a blanket healthy or not statement on any of these words makes no sense and doing so would be sheer stupidity. For one, all of them overlap, a lot. Second, there are extremely healthy substances and deadly poisons in all of these groups. Just to iterate once more, artificial, organic or inorganic - has nothing to do with health.

 

[Gato del Jugo]

Organic doesn't have anything to do with healthy or not. By its definition it means that something came from a living organism. So.. sugar can be described as organic but so can tar or ricin.

Inorganic simply means that that the molecule in question doesn't have organic origins.

Artificial molecules are no different from their naturally occurring counterparts. By definition it means something that came to be through the willful manipulation of matter by an intelligence.

Trying to put a blanket healthy or not statement on any of these words makes no sense and doing so would be sheer stupidity. For one, all of them overlap, a lot. Second, there are extremely healthy substances and deadly poisons in all of these groups. Just to iterate once more, artificial, organic or inorganic - has nothing to do with health.

I don't remember Whole Foods being discussed in organic chemistry class...

 

[Mazinny]

Organic food is a conventional food crop (genetically exactly the same plant variety as the regular version) but grown according to a different set of standards. In this sense, organic food is really the same thing as kosher food. The food itself is identical, but it's prepared in such a way to conform to different philosophical standards. Just as kosher standards are defined by rabbinical authorities, the USDA's National Organic Program sets the requirements for foods to bear a "certified organic" label. Basically it forbids the use of modern synthetic fertilizers and pesticides in favor of organic equivalents, and for animals it requires that they have not been kept healthy through the use of antibiotics. There are other rules too, and the basic goal is to require the use of only natural products throughout the growth, preparation, and preservation stages. When you take the exact same strain of a plant and grow it in two different ways, its chemical and genetic makeup remain the same. One may be larger than the other if one growing method was more efficient, but its fundamental makeup and biochemical content is defined by its genes, not by the way it was grown. Consumer Reports found no consistent difference in appearance, flavor, or texture. A blanket statement like "organic cultivation results in a crop with superior nutritional value" has no logical or factual basis.

Some supporters of organic growing claim that the danger of non-organic food lies in the residues of chemical pesticides. This claim is even more ridiculous: Since the organic pesticides and fungicides are less efficient than their modern synthetic counterparts, up to seven times as much of it must be used. Organic pesticides include rotenone, which has been shown to cause the symptoms of Parkinson's Disease and is a natural poison used in hunting by some native tribes; pyrethrum, which is carcinogenic; sabadilla, which is highly toxic to honeybees; and fermented urine, which I don't want on my food whether it causes any diseases or not. Supporters of organics claim that the much larger amounts of chemicals they use is OK because those chemicals are all-natural. But just because something is natural doesn't mean that it's safe or healthy — consider the examples of hemlock, mercury, lead, toadstools, box jellyfish neurotoxin, asbestos — not to mention a nearly infinite number of toxic bacteria and viruses (E. coli, salmonella, bubonic plague, smallpox). When you hear any product claim to be healthy because its ingredients are all natural, be skeptical. By no definition can "all natural" mean that a product is healthful.

Consider the logical absurdity proposed by those who claim conventional growers produce less healthful food. To the organically minded, conventional growers are evil greedy corporations interested only in their profit margin. What's the best way to improve the profit margin? To buy less pesticides and fertilizer. This means they must use far more advanced and efficient products. The idea that pesticides leave dangerous residues is many decades out of date. Food production is among the most regulated and scrutinized of processes, and today's synthetic pesticides and fertilizers are completely biodegradable. They're supported by decades of studies that demonstrate their total safety.

In the United States, 2006 brought two major outbreaks of E. coli, both resulting in deaths and numerous illnesses, ultimately traced to organically grown spinach and lettuce. According to the Center for Global Food Issues, organic foods make up about 1% of all the food sold in the United States, but it accounts for 8% of E. coli cases.

from skeptoid

 

[EleanorR]

Fascinating discussion -- thanks to all.

Very glad I don't have a dog in this fight!

 

[hazarada]

I don't remember Whole Foods being discussed in organic chemistry class...

"organic food" is just a horrible abuse of language, any food of plant or animal origin is organic. In fact i'm having a hard time trying to think of any food that isn't organic.

 

[~Sue~Feb2012]

It's only been in recent years that I see "organic" on labels at the grocery store. They are so much more expensive I tend to not buy them. I thought the "organic" label just meant the products were grown without artificial chemical additives or pesticides.

 

[odysseysteve]

So I thought I would start a thread to gather some info from this community and gather your facts/opinions on this subject. As mentioned above, please keep your replies relative to the term "organic" as it relates to the safety of e-liquids and flavorings.

Thanks!

Please keep in mind this is my opinion - not presented as fact - and is gleaned from my first hand experiences.

I do believe vaping VG e-juice with only organic flavorings is indeed safer for my health. It is all I vape. Early on in my vape journey my body made it plain to me that vaping PG is a bad thing for me to do. So I switched to all VG. Much better. Then I found the artificial flavorings I was using in my DIY juice were causing me problems to I switched to organic flavorings. Much better again and this is what I vape now.

For any of those interested I would suggest you check out Guilty Pleasures Organics. Their site has a ton of information you may find enlightening.

Take care!

 

[~Sue~Feb2012]

Please keep in mind this is my opinion - not presented as fact - and is gleaned from my first hand experiences.

I do believe vaping VG e-juice with only organic flavorings is indeed safer for my health. It is all I vape. Early on in my vape journey my body made it plain to me that vaping PG is a bad thing for me to do. So I switched to all VG. Much better. Then I found the artificial flavorings I was using in my DIY juice were causing me problems to I switched to organic flavorings. Much better again and this is what I vape now.

For any of those interested I would suggest you check out Guilty Pleasures Organics. Their site has a ton of information you may find enlightening.

Take care!

How have I missed them? Are they a registered supplier here on ECF?
(maybe not and that's how I've missed them I just realized I only buy from suppliers here.)

 

[hazarada]

organic flavorings is indeed safer for my health.

Diacetyl is organic and its a flavoring. Just sayin... blanket statements... stupid...

 

[Gato del Jugo]

"organic food" is just a horrible abuse of language, any food of plant or animal origin is organic. In fact i'm having a hard time trying to think of any food that isn't organic.

You do realize that a word can have more than one definition, right?


But if you really feel that strongly about it, then you might want to contact Merriam-Webster...

Organic - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary


Otherwise, this thread is not about all e-liquids, since all e-liquids contain ingredients with a carbon atom...


I could be wrong, but sounds like you're trolling a bit...

 

[Gato del Jugo]

The idea that pesticides leave dangerous residues is many decades out of date. Food production is among the most regulated and scrutinized of processes, and today's synthetic pesticides and fertilizers are completely biodegradable. They're supported by decades of studies that demonstrate their total safety.

Total safety? That's a mighty big claim..

And would these be the same studies paid for by Monsanto, Dow Chemical, and the like?

Do you really want to get into all the illnesses likely caused by their products??


I'll take my chances with E. coli, thanks..

Nothing is totally safe.. It's all about harm reduction...

Otherwise, we might as well all stop vaping.. and drinking water.. and breathing air...

Then we'll have no worries at all...

 

[Mazinny]

Total safety? That's a mighty big claim..

And would these be the same studies paid for by Monsanto, Dow Chemical, and the like?

Do you really want to get into all the illnesses likely caused by their products??


I'll take my chances with E. coli, thanks..

Nothing is totally safe.. It's all about harm reduction...

Otherwise, we might as well all stop vaping.. and drinking water.. and breathing air...

Then we'll have no worries at all...

If you want to vape organic e liquids only, by all means it's your choice. But if you want to engage in scaremongering, you should expect to hear the other side of the argument. You are right, vaping is about harm reduction, and i am under no illusion it is totally safe. I am worried about the production facilities of the vendors, about the accuracy of nicotine content, about proper disclosure of ingredients, about adherence to hygiene standards etc... But i am not worried that the extract of a fruit produced by conventional methods is less safe than the extract of a fruit produced by organic methods.

Your statements above have no basis in logic and and facts. You are engaging in the age old strawman and ad-hominem fallacy by creating an imaginary link to Monsanto and Dow Chemical and implicitly questioning the validity of studies that have shown traditionally grown produce are safe. You have'nt produced any coherent argument against the statements you are refuting. The fact is the huge percentage of organic products in the market are produced by the same giant conglomerates that sell conventional produce.

Consumer Reports is not paid by Monsanto ! If you show me even one scientific, published, peer reviewed study that concludes organic produce is safer and more nutritious than conventional produce, i will concede the argument.

The fact is as we have become more modernized and our food production technology has improved over the last two centuries, hunger has decreased world-wide and our life expectancy has continued to increase. I don't know what these imaginary illnesses are that you are linking to conventional foods.

You can take your chances with E. coli, and i will take mine with science.

The link to the full article btw. and the citations :
Organic Food Myths

 

[donwuan]

As of today I look at organic as I look at iPhone retina display. Marketing terms and key words to bring in more sales. Same as fat free or low blah.

Years ago it meant something different.


Organic or not I just hate cheap tasting flavors.

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