Are these juices OK for my device?

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Brewdawg1181

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Brewdawg, I don't really care about which kind of nic is stronger/hit's you faster, but I am interested in your comment about tolerating PC... please describe the issues you have with it. By the way, the nic salts are very mellow so I'm totally cool with that.
My issues may not be unique, but not the most common with PG. Seems most people complain of sore throat. With me, it's more like my mouth gets sore all over...kind of like when you burn it on hot soup or pizza or something. When I started vaping, all was good for a month or so. But then when I overdid it, my mouth would get sore like that. Especially if I overdid it, and vaped a lot throughout the day. I was trying to slow down the vaping, using aloe mouth rinses, stuff like that. Thought I was going to have to quit completely. But I'd started diy, and mixing with VG only, it kind of disappeared.

With VG, when I overdo it, my "reminder" is that if I overdo it, I get a little congestion - not even enough to cough, really, but messes with my voice. Like I need to clear my throat.

Anyway, after mixing this 50/50 juice for my Vladdin (which is an AWESOME vape with 50/50), I started feeling it again after hitting it a lot thru the day. I guess Juul is PG, but I only hit it maybe 5-10 times in a day, never a main vape.

So now, I'm going to try some 60VG/40 for pods, and see if I can tolerate that better.
 

HigherStateD

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Incorrect. The freebase and the acid are consumed in the reaction that produces the salt molecule, eg. nicotine benzoate. Salt nic is measured in mg of this per mL, so 12mg is 12mg regardless.


Does that hold true for 999mg per ml also? That'd be impressive... From what I've read, benzoic nic is a molecular mass of 282.xxx where as freebase is 161.xxx. Hit salts would be somewhere in-between.

Of coursez I'm not a chemist by trade, an I may be speaking out of an unusual orifice, but I'd be damn impressed if 999mg per ml was a freebase weight.
I don't really use nic salt much any more - the kind I got from Nic River, was too smooth for me, even though it was the "hit" nic version. I like my TH, and wish I could tolerate more PG. And I smoked so long, and have vaped a few years, so maybe my nic sensors are a little calloused. I don't get a really huge difference from my son's nic salts, or mine compared to FB, but I do feel a difference. But I keep a Juul onhand for discrete store/restaurant vapes, and something about their's seems different. I mean, it generates a tiny amount of vapor, yet I definitely feel it quick when I hit one really hard.

Anyway, I don't think all salt-nic is equal. And I definitely don't believe FB and salt are equal at all. I hear that a lot, and spent a good bit of time reading about it, so it always makes me respond when I see that stated. Sorry I'm not more help to you!

I'm pretty sure, when it comes to salts, the "smooth" & "hit" nomenclature is in reference to the taste. The other main differences between FB and salt is the bio-availability and metabolic path, but I'm no biologist, either...

My issues may not be unique, but not the most common with PG. Seems most people complain of sore throat. With me, it's more like my mouth gets sore all over...kind of like when you burn it on hot soup or pizza or something. When I started vaping, all was good for a month or so. But then when I overdid it, my mouth would get sore like that. Especially if I overdid it, and vaped a lot throughout the day. I was trying to slow down the vaping, using aloe mouth rinses, stuff like that. Thought I was going to have to quit completely. But I'd started diy, and mixing with VG only, it kind of disappeared.

With VG, when I overdo it, my "reminder" is that if I overdo it, I get a little congestion - not even enough to cough, really, but messes with my voice. Like I need to clear my throat.

Anyway, after mixing this 50/50 juice for my Vladdin (which is an AWESOME vape with 50/50), I started feeling it again after hitting it a lot thru the day. I guess Juul is PG, but I only hit it maybe 5-10 times in a day, never a main vape.

So now, I'm going to try some 60VG/40 for pods, and see if I can tolerate that better.

I have a similar issue with pg. My suspicion is that is to do with the hygoscopic nature. U notice far less of an issue when I consume more water than usual, and rinse the PG from my mouth after vaping.
 
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GOMuniEsq

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Does that hold true for 999mg per ml also? That'd be impressive... From what I've read, benzoic nic is a molecular mass of 282.xxx where as freebase is 161.xxx. Nic salts would be somewhere in-between.

You're astute. I've been waiting all long weekend for somebody to notice the flaw in that sentence. The molecular mass of the salt is much greater than that of freebase, so if we went by the concentration of that we'd get less nic. Makes me think the concentration on the label pertains simply to the amount of freebase that was reacted.

So 1L of pure 999mg nic reacted with ~43% benzoic acid (1L nic : 750mL BA) would make 1.75L of 570mg salt, which would then be diluted with 8.25L of base and sold as 10L of 100mg salt nic.
 
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HigherStateD

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Does that hold true for 999mg per ml also? That'd be impressive... From what I've read, benzoic nic is a molecular mass of 282.xxx where as freebase is 161.xxx. Hit salts would be somewhere in-between.

Of coursez I'm not a chemist by trade, an I may be speaking out of an unusual orifice, but I'd be damn impressed if 999mg per ml was a freebase weight.


I'm pretty sure, when it comes to salts, the "smooth" & "hit" nomenclature is in reference to the taste. The other main differences between FB and salt is the bio-availability and metabolic path, but I'm no biologist, either...
You're astute. I've been waiting all long weekend for somebody to notice the flaw in that sentence. The molecular mass of the salt is much greater than that of freebase, so if we went by the concentration of that we'd get less nic. Makes me think the concentration on the label pertains simply to the amount of freebase that was reacted.

So 1L of pure 999mg nic reacted with ~43% benzoic acid (1L nic : 750mL BA) would make 1.75L of 570mg salt, which would then be diluted with 8.25L of base and sold as 10L of 100mg salt nic.


I'm not astute, if I were, I wouldn't have dropped out of college.

I'm still waking up, so haven't checked the maths but near as I can tell, so long as we're not performing chemical reactions with the nic, at least intentionally, it won't matter. The big issue comes in trying to gauge how much to use, esp. when someone is asking for advice. The best advise in this situation is to start low. See how it affects you. Don't start out with off the shelf 60mg in an Orion DNA go because it says for pod use.
 

GOMuniEsq

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The big issue comes in trying to gauge how much to use, esp. when someone is asking for advice. The best advise in this situation is to start low. See how it affects you. Don't start out with off the shelf 60mg in an Orion DNA go because it says for pod use.
One thing I've noticed with salts that's different from freebase is that salts is very easy to overvape since it's so smooth and tasteless. I've used it both in a pod at 50mg and in my RTA at 5mg. Whereas overvaping freebase gives me a momentary queasy feeling, overvaping salts sometimes gives me a headache, so I've gone back to freebase on my RTA.
I'd agree that it's best to start low with salts.
 
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vaper1960

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I agree about water and PG (actually vaping in general) I just sip water between vapes. Funny thing is it seems to bother me more when drinking beer (could be the alcohol and/or acidic carbonation) Also, drank some red wine the other day and totally killed my taste buds.
I just changed coils to the 0.6 and going to try the thicker juice. Will post on that later (have a side job... finally get to order a mod/tank setup)
 

Brewdawg1181

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I agree about water and PG (actually vaping in general) I just sip water between vapes. Funny thing is it seems to bother me more when drinking beer (could be the alcohol and/or acidic carbonation) Also, drank some red wine the other day and totally killed my taste buds.
I just changed coils to the 0.6 and going to try the thicker juice. Will post on that later (have a side job... finally get to order a mod/tank setup)
That's really odd. Nothing bothers me more when drinking beer.
Except maybe that super hot blonde at the end of the bar.
And damn - she didn't look that good when I came in here 4 hours ago!
 
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vaper1960

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Tried the second (higher VG) juice. Works fine with the 0.6 ohm coil. Flavor... well it's what it is... white grape/tangerine. Not bad just I would choose a berry juice myself. I did notice a bit more nicotine effect (both nic salts juices are 12 mg) I think it's the sub ohm coil made it kick in better. Didn't need to, but went ahead and added some 50vg/50pg 16 mg juice today to keep the coil happy (and I was craving a bit more nic) Nothing against vapebox... it was fun, but want to choose my own juices for awhile, so it's Killer Kustard and Black Note Sonata for me (if I can afford it... would love to treat myself just once) Just ordered my first mod/tank... can't wait!
Brewdawg... you dog! Quit droolin (blame it on the hops if you want) By the way, I make homebrew beer and love it.
 

HigherStateD

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One thing I've noticed with salts that's different from freebase is that salts is very easy to overvape since it's so smooth and tasteless. I've used it both in a pod at 50mg and in my RTA at 5mg. Whereas overvaping freebase gives me a momentary queasy feeling, overvaping salts sometimes gives me a headache, so I've gone back to freebase on my RTA.
I'd agree that it's best to start low with salts.
This interesting. I had the exact opposite reaction. I was vaping 45-50mg off the shelf juice, started diy, bought salts cause that's what I had, but thought I wanted the throat hit at the time, so I bought hit salts. Switched to a Nord 0.6ohm, 30w, and dropped to 30-35mg. Tried some 3mg freebase, and THAT gave me a headache and made me nauseous. Now I vape 3mg, at about 60w hit salts, wish I got the smooth, because it's still too peppery for a simple peach juice with out a clove coverup.

I agree about water and PG (actually vaping in general) I just sip water between vapes. Funny thing is it seems to bother me more when drinking beer (could be the alcohol and/or acidic carbonation) Also, drank some red wine the other day and totally killed my taste buds.
I just changed coils to the 0.6 and going to try the thicker juice. Will post on that later (have a side job... finally get to order a mod/tank setup)


Both ethyl alcohol and glycol are hygroscopic.
 

greek mule

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Incorrect. The freebase and the acid are consumed in the reaction that produces the salt molecule, eg. nicotine benzoate. Salt nic is measured in mg of this per mL, so 12mg is 12mg regardless.

CHEMNOVATIC

"NicSalt-B

Name: NicSalt-B (Nicotine Benzoate salt)
Identifier (CAS no.): 88660-53-1
Appearance: white to amber coloured crystals
Identification: Nicotine Benzoate
Purity: min. 99.9%
Nicotine content: 57,05% w/w corresponding to [575,053] mg/ml
Benzoic acid content: 42,95 % w/w corresponding to 429,947] mg/ml
Nicotine benzoate content: 99,999 % w/w corresponding to 999,099 mg/ml "

Using my poor mind what I understand is that when Juul states "5% Nic salt strength"this mean
575.053 X 5% =28.75 free base nic contained in 1 ml of liquid.
50 mg nic salt in 1 ml can't contain 50 mg free base nic.
Unless that 5% Nic strength refers on free base nic percentage,but I don't think so..
 
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HigherStateD

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CHEMNOVATIC

"NicSalt-B

Name: NicSalt-B (Nicotine Benzoate salt)
Identifier (CAS no.): 88660-53-1
Appearance: white to amber coloured crystals
Identification: Nicotine Benzoate
Purity: min. 99.9%
Nicotine content: 57,05% w/w corresponding to [575,053] mg/ml
Benzoic acid content: 42,95 % w/w corresponding to 429,947] mg/ml
Nicotine benzoate content: 99,999 % w/w corresponding to 999,099 mg/ml "

Using my poor mind what I understand is that when Juul states "5% Nic salt strength"this mean
575.053 X 5% =28.75 free base nic contained in 1 ml of liquid.
50 mg nic salt in 1 ml can't contain 50 mg free base nic.
Unless that 5% Nic strength refers on free base nic percentage,but I don't think so..
Thank you. The reason I see the misinformation about salts is, to my mind, the bioavailability and metabolic differences. The corelarry my mind goes to is the difference between coffee, tea, Coca-Cola and red-bull. Caffeine, xanthene, and taurene(so?) All affect the body similarly, but there are subtle differences.
 

jandrew

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...
Using my poor mind what I understand is that when Juul states "5% Nic salt strength"this mean
575.053 X 5% =28.75 free base nic contained in 1 ml of liquid.
50 mg nic salt in 1 ml can't contain 50 mg free base nic.
Unless that 5% Nic strength refers on free base nic percentage,but I don't think so..
In one of Juul's patent filings they give exampe formulations for various strengths -- in all of these, they explicitly reference concentrations in freebase equivalents: that is to say, the 5% (w/w) refers to freebase equivalent nicotine content by weight, not to the nicotine-salt content. For a 10g solution: 0.5g nicotine, 0.38g benzoic acid, 9.12g PG/VG (3:7) --- works out to about 59mg/ml nicotine content by volume.

US20150020824A1 - Nicotine salt formulations for aerosol devices and methods thereof - Google Patents
 
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HigherStateD

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In one of Juul's patent filings they give exampe formulations for various strengths -- in all of these, they explicitly reference concentrations in freebase equivalents: that is to say, the 5% (w/w) refers to freebase equivalent nicotine content by weight, not to the nicotine-salt content. For a 10g solution: 0.5g nicotine, 0.38g benzoic acid, 9.12g PG/VG (3:7) --- works out to about 59mg/ml nicotine content by volume.

US20150020824A1 - Nicotine salt formulations for aerosol devices and methods thereof - Google Patents
Ok, so that's juul. When I buy salts from a wholesaler, I don't think it follows the same formula though. Does it?
 

greek mule

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The reason I see the misinformation about salts is, to my mind, the bioavailability and metabolic differences.
I was thinking exactly the same.A 5% Nic salt hits harder and faster due it's chemistry,this doesn't mean it contains 50mg free base in it.I wish that somebody could do a nicotine test at Juul e-liquids.
 

jandrew

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Ok, so that's juul. When I buy salts from a wholesaler, I don't think it follows the same formula though. Does it?
Have to ask your supplier/wholesaler --- I know several explicity mention "nicotine content" (not "nicotine-benzoate" content or "nicotine-otherSalt" content) in mg/ml on their labels and presumably mean just that (there are laws about labelling chemical content in most countries I think).

For example:
nic-content.png
 
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vaper1960

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Hey! I get it... does it matter? I like nic salts and might just get some 24-36 mg (I've been craving stronger nic lately) At least it won't be as harsh as the freebase (I keep some cheap 18mg tobacco flavor handy to mix with other juices... I call it "crackbac"... bad joke I guess) Can we all agree 36mg nic salts are milder than 36mg freebase? I'm into chemistry too, but you guys highjacked my thread that I already got off topic, so let's just let it go.
 

stols001

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Wow.

I have to say (in a very confusing thread and I don't even GET into nic salt discussions anymore because it just becomes a mess, there is always a fanatic or two who won't "believe" it and etc and also the marketing is OUT OF HAND=-

But in this WHOLE thread I am the most confused by allowing a subscription SERVICE to choose your nic salts for you (likely overpriced, under enjoyed brands they can get for a discount and UPSELL) when you could like do it yourself directly without a middle man.

I don't get this especially with the amount of mixing and whatnot you seem to be doing. CONFUSION!!!!

Anna
 

HigherStateD

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  • Wow.

    I have to say (in a very confusing thread and I don't even GET into nic salt discussions anymore because it just becomes a mess, there is always a fanatic or two who won't "believe" it and etc and also the marketing is OUT OF HAND=-

    But in this WHOLE thread I am the most confused by allowing a subscription SERVICE to choose your nic salts for you (likely overpriced, under enjoyed brands they can get for a discount and UPSELL) when you could like do it yourself directly without a middle man.

    I don't get this especially with the amount of mixing and whatnot you seem to be doing. CONFUSION!!!!

    Anna
    Sometimes you just gotta see what you're not missing.
 
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