Ask The Chemist

[sofarsogood]

From the very few mechanisms I have seen for the synthesis of nicotine, the reason that synthetic nicotine is so expensive is because of the yield problems. The only high yield mechanism I have seen was an enantioselective synthesis for R-nicotine, but natural nicotine from tobacco produces L-nicotine (the most effective enantiomer).

The other mechanism for the correct enantiomer of nicotine had a theoretical yield of about 25% (you ALWAYS get less than the theoretical yield) of the starting material. Then the product would have to be purified and more would be lost.

Thanks. My cost of ingredients for a year supply of nic at current prices is about $12. 13 x $12 = $165. That's still low compared to what I spent on cigarettes. So I suppose the relevent question is, do you think his estimated cost for commercial scale production is realistic?

 

[The_Vapin_Chemist]

Thanks. My cost of ingredients for a year supply of nic at current prices is about $12. 13 x $12 = $165. That's still low compared to what I spent on cigarettes. So I suppose the relevent question is, do you think his estimated cost for commercial scale production is realistic?

It would be tough to say without looking at the actual process and cost, but almost anything is possible if you put enough money behind it.

 

[The_Vapin_Chemist]

Anyone have any new questions they would like to ask?

 

[Mactavish]

Anyone have any new questions they would like to ask?

Yes, what's your opinion on the debate of either leaving a bit of head room or filing to the brim, when storing glass bottles of NIC in the freezer? I'm waiting on a liter of NicSelect. I bought some 120ml glass bottles with the polycone caps. I plan on filling these glass bottles and then long term freezer storing them. Some say to leave headroom so if the juice expands in the freezer it won't leak out, as well as when letting them sit at room temp before opening them to use that bottle. Others say fill to the very top, to keep as much oxygen out. Thanks.

 

[Hightech Redneck]

I also have a follow up to a question you answered previously. The speeding up steeping with heat etc we talked about. In my mind the heating thins the vg to help in blending the mix. I could be wrong there but. If this is the case could we not heat the vg only when being mixed to help speed the process? This method would avoid nic damage etc. Of course a whole Lotta shaking would be needed.
Could that help a little or am I just thinking too much?

 

[AzPlumber]

At what temperature(s) does nicotine degrade and become ineffective for our purpose?

 

[oplholik]

My mixing procedure is as follows.
I put everything in a glass beaker, set it on a coffee cup warmer plate, let it sit for about 10 minutes, then mix well with a milk frother, let sit on the warmer another 10 minutes, remove from heat, mix well again, pour in glass bottle, let it come to room temp with the cap loose, then tighten cap, and put it away. This seems to work well for me, but do you see anything I shouldn't be doing?

 

[The_Vapin_Chemist]

Yes, what's your opinion on the debate of either leaving a bit of head room or filing to the brim, when storing glass bottles of NIC in the freezer? I'm waiting on a liter of NicSelect. I bought some 120ml glass bottles with the polycone caps. I plan on filling these glass bottles and then long term freezer storing them. Some say to leave headroom so if the juice expands in the freezer it won't leak out, as well as when letting them sit at room temp before opening them to use that bottle. Others say fill to the very top, to keep as much oxygen out. Thanks.

Yes on both accounts. You want to fill it as much as possible to leave out as much air as possible, but you also want to leave just enough room for the polycone to go in without spilling. The nic will expand, but I have only ever heard of one person that said his bottle or cap broke from the expansion.

 

[The_Vapin_Chemist]

I also have a follow up to a question you answered previously. The speeding up steeping with heat etc we talked about. In my mind the heating thins the vg to help in blending the mix. I could be wrong there but. If this is the case could we not heat the vg only when being mixed to help speed the process? This method would avoid nic damage etc. Of course a whole Lotta shaking would be needed.
Could that help a little or am I just thinking too much?

Yes, that would work as well. The only thing I would caution you and @oplholik about would be too much heat. I have read somewhere that overheating the VG can lead to a loss in viscosity, meaning that it will not thicken back up after mixing.

 

[The_Vapin_Chemist]

At what temperature(s) does nicotine degrade and become ineffective for our purpose?

So this is a tough question because it is a matter of much discussion. Highly oxidized nicotine (a very dark brownish nic) would still have enough nicotine to get the metabolic job done, but the taste would be horrendous.

I always advise everyone to keep there nic in a freezer (and away from children) for best nic life.

 

[oplholik]

I remember reading somewhere that someone said to not heat above 140 degrees. I don't know if that is too high or not, but really, there is no need to get to that high a temp.

 

[AzPlumber]

So this is a tough question because it is a matter of much discussion. Highly oxidized nicotine (a very dark brownish nic) would still have enough nicotine to get the metabolic job done, but the taste would be horrendous.

I always advise everyone to keep there nic in a freezer (and away from children) for best nic life.

I was looking more for temperatures of steeping and vaporizing nicotine not the storage of.

 

[Mactavish]

I remember reading somewhere that someone said to not heat above 140 degrees. I don't know if that is too high or not, but really, there is no need to get to that high a temp.

That's about the temp my ultrasonic cleaner gets to and after hours of reading in that thread, and real world research by many mixers, ends up being the accepted, perfect temp.

 

[The_Vapin_Chemist]

I was looking more for temperatures of steeping and vaporizing nicotine not the storage of.

Sorry, I misunderstood your question. So as far as steeping goes, I would not steep anything over 85 F. Anything hotter than that will speed up the degradation drastically, and I would not leave it at 85 F for more than a day. As for the vaporization, temperature is irrelevant. A liquid can be vaporized at basically any temperature if enough energy is put into the liquid. Heat of vaporization is measured in kJ/unit of mass and is temperature dependant. As the temperature goes up the energy required to vaporize it goes down.

 

[AzPlumber]

Sorry, I misunderstood your question. So as far as steeping goes, I would not steep anything over 85 F. Anything hotter than that will speed up the degradation drastically, and I would not leave it at 85 F for more than a day. As for the vaporization, temperature is irrelevant. A liquid can be vaporized at basically any temperature if enough energy is put into the liquid. Heat of vaporization is measured in kJ/unit of mass and is temperature dependant. As the temperature goes up the energy required to vaporize it goes down.

Thanks for the steeping info. As for the vaporizing I will rephrase the question.

In a cigarette we know that most of the nicotine is destroyed due to heat. We also know that at some point (temp) e-juice becomes acrid and unvapable. Does all of the nicotine survive vapable temperatures?

 

[The_Vapin_Chemist]

That's about the temp my ultrasonic cleaner gets to and after hours of reading in that thread, and real world research by many mixers, ends up being the accepted, perfect temp.

I can't find any quantitative data on the effect of raising the temperature and then cooling. So the only thing I can add is that at 140 F glycerin is 95% less viscous than at room temperature.

 

[The_Vapin_Chemist]

Thanks for the steeping info. As for the vaporizing I will rephrase the question.

In a cigarette we know that most of the nicotine is destroyed due to heat. We also know that at some point (temp) e-juice becomes acrid and unvapable. Does all of the nicotine survive vapable temperatures?

Are you asking if all of the nicotine in the liquid survives the vaporization transition while the coils are firing?

 

[oplholik]

That's about the temp my ultrasonic cleaner gets to and after hours of reading in that thread, and real world research by many mixers, ends up being the accepted, perfect temp.

I just put some hot water in my small custard bowl that I use on the heater, and turned it on,and It got up to 128degrees, so that's the temp I use. I'm not sure if the juice reaches that temp before I'm done tho.

 

[Mactavish]

I just put some hot water in my small custard bowl that I use on the heater, and turned it on,and It got up to 128degrees, so that's the temp I use. I'm not sure if the juice reaches that temp before I'm done tho.

The members in the ultrasonic thread did a lot of testing. The Consensus was that NIC strength was NOT degraded at temps below 150f. for steeping. There were also other tests on crock pot temps, and tests on other forums that indicated the same. Prolonged heat for days or weeks of course would not be advised, but for our relatively short steep periods, it's not an issue.

 

[oplholik]

Thanks for the info Mac.