Ok guys- please keep it civil- stick to the topic at hand.
Thanks
BTW, the ignore feature is good for your blood pressure.
Where is the ignore button?
Aspire official statement on Atlantis coils material
- Thread starter Abacus Artifact
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Where is the ignore button?
Well, that's two pages of my life I will never get back.
Guys, its in the testing document they released. Its the only official document released by Aspire describing their document, but for our purposes its only half of what we want to know, but, its very eye opening that the lab described the product as fiberglass.
Case closed.
Guys, its in the testing document they released. Its the only official document released by Aspire describing their document, but for our purposes its only half of what we want to know, but, its very eye opening that the lab described the product as fiberglass.
Case closed.
Thanks, that's all I was saying, before someone decided to accuse me of spreading false information, and then claimed to be the victim. Sorry for the mess here...I just didn't appreciate the accusation.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
This has largely been a very interesting thread that I've avoided, because I've never used an Aspire product; why bother? But it's actually made me re-think my position on other vaping hazards as well. I wanted to shout out at Firecrow as well, for bringing his unique expertise to the table.
The big bummer, to me, is that one of the more common newbie recommendations is an iStick + mini Nautilus. Mayhaps we should cut back on that, given the iStick's tendency to throw a good amount of power of anything in its way?
Kind of makes me want to purchase a variety of tanks to see how the coils fare over time, I really like the idea of dissection when you're done using it. But, I doubt I will buy any stock tanks, unfortunately.
The big bummer, to me, is that one of the more common newbie recommendations is an iStick + mini Nautilus. Mayhaps we should cut back on that, given the iStick's tendency to throw a good amount of power of anything in its way?
Kind of makes me want to purchase a variety of tanks to see how the coils fare over time, I really like the idea of dissection when you're done using it. But, I doubt I will buy any stock tanks, unfortunately.
So far
I found the burned cotton in my stock atlantis coil.
Rewicked it with cotton only, but reused the wire
I ran 3 tanks through it at 15-17w and
Took it back apart to compare...
Unfortunately I forgot to take pics because I was showing someone how to rewick it.
There was about 1/4 of the amount of charing, it was actually just a lil black but not sure if it was indeed incomplete combustion.
My conclusion is, building my own coils and wicking with an appropriate wick medium, is the best way to reduce harm. I just wanted the simplicity of a plug and play atty when I don't feel like building and to help new vapers get the Atlantis kind of vape experience without having to learn to build their own coils. I'm hopeful the SubTank will be better at this.
I found the burned cotton in my stock atlantis coil.
Rewicked it with cotton only, but reused the wire
I ran 3 tanks through it at 15-17w and
Took it back apart to compare...
Unfortunately I forgot to take pics because I was showing someone how to rewick it.
There was about 1/4 of the amount of charing, it was actually just a lil black but not sure if it was indeed incomplete combustion.
My conclusion is, building my own coils and wicking with an appropriate wick medium, is the best way to reduce harm. I just wanted the simplicity of a plug and play atty when I don't feel like building and to help new vapers get the Atlantis kind of vape experience without having to learn to build their own coils. I'm hopeful the SubTank will be better at this.
You all have been warned once and this is the final warning. Keep it civil!
Another note: calling someone a troll (or implying it), counts, at least for me, as a personal attack, so do not do that please. If you think someone's "trolling," report the post(s) in question and we'll take care of it.
Another note: calling someone a troll (or implying it), counts, at least for me, as a personal attack, so do not do that please. If you think someone's "trolling," report the post(s) in question and we'll take care of it.
Welp, I consider this to be a valuable thread so I guess we should get busy reporting much of the last few pages in a way that'll make sense to moderators who may not have followed the thread to see where & why it spiraled. Once that many posts spiral, removing only a few can almost make it more confusing, but bygones.
Edit: Done, there's 45 minutes gone I can't waste properly. Mods, hopefully I provided enough context for each post that you're able to see it's not only in good faith but the harm being done.
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In the future, just hit that black triangle, located to the right of Blog this Post--just under the user's avatar, of the offending post and let the mods take care of that.
Yeah.
Aspire Support: •View topic - Aspire official statement on Atlantis coils material
"Our patented ceramic paper has been tested by SGS (snip)."
You know what they say about leading horses to water...
I've never recommended that particular combo to anyone, but I did try to suggest, on occasion, other alternatives... Without much success.
This too shall pass. I've seen fads and hypes like that before--they eventually fade away. New toys come on the market all the time, popular YouTube reviewers proclaim them to be the greatest, and so it goes.
We all do what we think is best for us. If you already own BVC coils, I agree that rebuilding is probably the best solution--at least for the time being.
But I also believe that there will be plenty more tanks similar to Atlantis and Sub Tank introduced this year.
Here's one--Joyetech has entered the sub-ohm market with Delta II--premade coils/RDA/RTA combo. Looks promising. I really like the simplicity of the design. I haven't bought the Atlantis (for obvious reasons) or the Sub Tank (because of its size), but I think I'm going to try this Delta II. BTW, I don't want (or need) a sub-ohm tank, I just like the idea of a tank that comes with both premade as well as rebuildable coil heads. What do you think?
Think it's more attractive than the Kanger Subtank (that also takes stock and rebuilt coils). Whoever thought red O-rings would be a good idea?
That Delta II does look promising! It's good to see joyetech going for it. I wonder if innokin will step it up also.
Lawdy... I'm deep in the weeds researching cotton gauze pore size, check back in the topic is o-ring colors (which I am not above, and kinda like). I saw Aspire posted this yesterday evening (I think, everyone not in the states lives in the future to me) while responding to "Bonz" about what I'm researching:
Aspire Support: •View topic - Aspire official statement on Atlantis coils material
So looks like they're now publically saying they're going to 100% cotton for the BVC coils!
I saw Aspire posted this yesterday evening (I think, everyone not in the states lives in the future to me) while responding to "Bonz" about what I'm researching:Aspire Support: •View topic - Aspire official statement on Atlantis coils material
Aspire said:
So looks like they're now publically saying they're going to 100% cotton for the BVC coils!
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A bit back I posted I had an open question about the cotton liner and it's effectiveness at stopping fibers from migrating. My concern was whether the thin cotton liner would stop particulate/fiber migration at all -- even while wet and not compromised. I was/am concerned because:
(1.) This idea only comes from Aspire in their PR release
(2.) The coil design was specifically explained in terms of wicking and performance; the idea that the cotton was protective only came after the complaints.
Which doesn't mean that the cotton can't be doing double-duty -- a good design might well do that! So it seems we need to know:
(1.) The specifics of the cotton liner being used. It's pore size (space between fibers), etc.
(2.) What weave/makeup would be necessary to stop fiberglass dust/fibers from migrating with the eliquid and being vaped.
The below is what I came to, as well as how I came to it so you can make up your own mind or help fill in mine.
====================
TLDR
====================
Setting aside everything else: I don't see how the liner could work -- at all -- except from keeping the fibers from right against the coil. However there are some open questions listed at the bottom.
====================
Particle Size
====================
There's also a neat chart here which gives an example of micron sizes and when things become visible to the naked eye. Aside from just jagged shards causing problems, the realllly nasty stuff is under 5 microns.
https://www.coloradoci.com/bin-pdf/5270/ParticleSize.pdf
For the fine crystaline dust at the sizes we're talking about, you won't actually see it.
====================
Necessary Pore Size
====================
I spent some time looking through what is supposed to be used or is effective for the type of particles we're worried about, as well as other cases where cotton is used as a filter.
[1.] Dust masks
They generally go by effectiveness ratings, e.g. 95%. It generally needs to be specifically rated for fiberglass dust/fibers. Ones that block glycerin and such are R or P series, which obviously doesn't apply as it's letting the eliquid through. Many manufacturers generally don't list their materials for this, so I resorted to things like alibaba to see what was sold in bulk for those making them.
Commonly it was 100% non-woven spunbond polypropylene/polyester, with N95 (95% effective) ones being 3-ply. Figuring out what spunbond was took me to a dupont data sheet:
http://www2.dupont.com/Separation_Solutions/en_US/assets/downloads/K17041-1Polypropylene.pdf
The pore size for dupont spunbond polypropylene ranges from 56-125 microns. Since we're generally looking at fibers and particulates that are much smaller <5, the standard stuff doesn't look like it would work. There are others that handle smaller sizes better, but much of the increased effectiveness is due to stacking and pleating the layers so they become pads. For an idea of thickness, you can generally squirt 2ml of blood on them without it making it through.
The ones that work the best seem to fully enclose the face and only allow air through special filter valves.
[2.] Oiled cotton filters
There are actually oiled cotton gauze filters, so this looks promising. Two thin layers of metal mesh have thick layers of cotton gauze between them, and a special oil is applied to the cotton. These appear to be generally used for higher-performance auto stuff, and are designed to be free-flowing so the engine can get the air it needs. They work best for bigger things, but not fine dust. They don't seem relevant.
[3.] Paper air filters
Similar to the above, but these are the ones you see near furnaces or engines, and they're generally pleated. The folds help increase surface volume which means they have to be replaced less. It turns out some can do up to 90%, not good enough but better -- but it also turns out these aren't normal cotton but a very specific industrial paper that loses effectiveness when wet. It's also pretty thick, so this doesn't seem relevant.
====================
Cotton Pore Size
====================
Aspire has said the liner is 100% organic cotton. No special coatings or anything.
Unfortunately, regular cotton gauze on it's own seems to actually be designed to be porous -- that's one of the reasons why it can absorb liquid so well -- the liquid is filling in all the holes and surface tension between the fibers helps keep it there. Looking up the pore size for cotton (I tried) is like doing it for a screen door.
Based on what I've seen, there isn't that much variation with this between manufacturers as people want their cotton gauze to be gauze.
====================
Conclusions:
====================
Aspire says due to the cotton being there it's safe, so we could infer they think fiberglass contacting the coil directly would be a bad thing -- yet it appears almost all of the used coils have compromised cotton.
However, even if that cotton isn't compromised, there is no magic to the cotton liner, they've said it's 100% organic cotton. It can't have the pore size and thickness to stop fine crystaline dust & fibers from migrating with the eliquid right to the coil and up into your lungs.
If it's the case that the fibers hitting the coil exacerbates things, which is not only possible but maybe likely, it may be helping in that way. But it is no barrier to fibers and dust of the size we are really concerned about.
====================
Open Questions:
====================
(1.) How well does eliquid transport dust & fibers?
(2.) What role does temperature would play in increasing or decreasing migration.
(3.) What role does temperature play when these fibers/dust hit the coil? Aspire doesn't seem to think that's OK, but does it actually affect the particulates themselves?
(4.) What the H, Aspire?
As always, if I'm missing something or you can help me fill something in it's appreciated.
(1.) This idea only comes from Aspire in their PR release
(2.) The coil design was specifically explained in terms of wicking and performance; the idea that the cotton was protective only came after the complaints.
Which doesn't mean that the cotton can't be doing double-duty -- a good design might well do that! So it seems we need to know:
(1.) The specifics of the cotton liner being used. It's pore size (space between fibers), etc.
(2.) What weave/makeup would be necessary to stop fiberglass dust/fibers from migrating with the eliquid and being vaped.
The below is what I came to, as well as how I came to it so you can make up your own mind or help fill in mine.
====================
TLDR
====================
Setting aside everything else: I don't see how the liner could work -- at all -- except from keeping the fibers from right against the coil. However there are some open questions listed at the bottom.
====================
Particle Size
====================
There's also a neat chart here which gives an example of micron sizes and when things become visible to the naked eye. Aside from just jagged shards causing problems, the realllly nasty stuff is under 5 microns.
https://www.coloradoci.com/bin-pdf/5270/ParticleSize.pdf
For the fine crystaline dust at the sizes we're talking about, you won't actually see it.
====================
Necessary Pore Size
====================
I spent some time looking through what is supposed to be used or is effective for the type of particles we're worried about, as well as other cases where cotton is used as a filter.
[1.] Dust masks
They generally go by effectiveness ratings, e.g. 95%. It generally needs to be specifically rated for fiberglass dust/fibers. Ones that block glycerin and such are R or P series, which obviously doesn't apply as it's letting the eliquid through. Many manufacturers generally don't list their materials for this, so I resorted to things like alibaba to see what was sold in bulk for those making them.
Commonly it was 100% non-woven spunbond polypropylene/polyester, with N95 (95% effective) ones being 3-ply. Figuring out what spunbond was took me to a dupont data sheet:
http://www2.dupont.com/Separation_Solutions/en_US/assets/downloads/K17041-1Polypropylene.pdf
The pore size for dupont spunbond polypropylene ranges from 56-125 microns. Since we're generally looking at fibers and particulates that are much smaller <5, the standard stuff doesn't look like it would work. There are others that handle smaller sizes better, but much of the increased effectiveness is due to stacking and pleating the layers so they become pads. For an idea of thickness, you can generally squirt 2ml of blood on them without it making it through.
The ones that work the best seem to fully enclose the face and only allow air through special filter valves.
[2.] Oiled cotton filters
There are actually oiled cotton gauze filters, so this looks promising. Two thin layers of metal mesh have thick layers of cotton gauze between them, and a special oil is applied to the cotton. These appear to be generally used for higher-performance auto stuff, and are designed to be free-flowing so the engine can get the air it needs. They work best for bigger things, but not fine dust. They don't seem relevant.
[3.] Paper air filters
Similar to the above, but these are the ones you see near furnaces or engines, and they're generally pleated. The folds help increase surface volume which means they have to be replaced less. It turns out some can do up to 90%, not good enough but better -- but it also turns out these aren't normal cotton but a very specific industrial paper that loses effectiveness when wet. It's also pretty thick, so this doesn't seem relevant.
====================
Cotton Pore Size
====================
Aspire has said the liner is 100% organic cotton. No special coatings or anything.
Unfortunately, regular cotton gauze on it's own seems to actually be designed to be porous -- that's one of the reasons why it can absorb liquid so well -- the liquid is filling in all the holes and surface tension between the fibers helps keep it there. Looking up the pore size for cotton (I tried) is like doing it for a screen door.
Based on what I've seen, there isn't that much variation with this between manufacturers as people want their cotton gauze to be gauze.
====================
Conclusions:
====================
Aspire says due to the cotton being there it's safe, so we could infer they think fiberglass contacting the coil directly would be a bad thing -- yet it appears almost all of the used coils have compromised cotton.
However, even if that cotton isn't compromised, there is no magic to the cotton liner, they've said it's 100% organic cotton. It can't have the pore size and thickness to stop fine crystaline dust & fibers from migrating with the eliquid right to the coil and up into your lungs.
If it's the case that the fibers hitting the coil exacerbates things, which is not only possible but maybe likely, it may be helping in that way. But it is no barrier to fibers and dust of the size we are really concerned about.
====================
Open Questions:
====================
(1.) How well does eliquid transport dust & fibers?
(2.) What role does temperature would play in increasing or decreasing migration.
(3.) What role does temperature play when these fibers/dust hit the coil? Aspire doesn't seem to think that's OK, but does it actually affect the particulates themselves?
(4.) What the H, Aspire?
As always, if I'm missing something or you can help me fill something in it's appreciated.
Last edited:
Lawdy... I'm deep in the weeds researching cotton gauze pore size, check back in the topic is o-ring colors (which I am not above, and kinda like).
Aspire Support: View topic - Aspire official statement on Atlantis coils material
So looks like they're now publically saying they're going to 100% cotton for the BVC coils!
Very lively discussion over at vap1ngUndergr0und along the same lines as this one. Looks like they've taken a lot of heat and are publicly taking out their ceramic wick. I guess I can consider this a response to my inquiry (in part) along with a lot of other posts and responses to them in regards to this atomizer. I didnt receive any response to my letter and I don't expect to, but this move by Aspire is a tacit admission of a problem along the lines we've been discussing.
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