Aspire official statement on Atlantis coils material

[chargingcharlie]

Considering there is a metric ton of data and science saying fiberglass particles are bad when inhaled even in smaller amounts, and nothing about cotton in the same league... it isn't an assumption, it's a sane default position. The onus is on the manufacturer to show something known to be inherently unsafe has been made safe.

Again, there is every reason to believe that fiberglass as a wicking medium is not safe. There is zero reason to think it might be. I've never seen science showing cotton fibers or dust in those amounts is dangerous, and that includes the links you posted earlier where you said it caused cancer.

We're going to have to agree to disagree here, I and others have made a lot of posts as to why fiberglass is considered not fit for purpose and I've seen nothing showing how it would be. People can draw their own conclusions.



That's a mental leap, that requires steps to be invented to get from A to B. For that to be true, for a start it'd have to be safe, and there's zero evidence to say it is. There's zero *reason* to think it is. None. Going against decades of science is a 4-year old chinese company saying they think it is in a PR release on a forum, while they pull information they already released.

Occam's razor is that they didn't/don't have data showing it's safe, and awareness is spreading. It'd be really easy to disprove it/me. They're choosing to move away from it instead.



This was discussed earlier in the thread -- there doesn't appear to be any patent-pending material, people seem to have gotten confused by the terminology and are making leaps.

You're fixating on the "fiberglass" terminology rather than the "ceramic paper" that they call it in every instance, save the PDF. You don't seem to completely understand Occam's razor or, if you do, you are twisting it to meet your own conclusion. The very definition of Occam's razor states that he hypothesis, with the least amount of assumptions, should be selected. In this case, the least amount of assumptions would be that they are thinking about switching to cotton because their customers have demanded it. That hypothesis is based on zero assumptions, while yours is based on at least two (1. The material is harmful when used in the way it was designed 2. They know this and are covering it up). Being a true skeptic requires not making any assumptions based on other things. You are basing your whole argument on the fact that inhalation of fiberglass particles is harmful. I'm not arguing that in the least. I'm arguing the following:

1. Is it truly fiberglass, or is it ceramic paper?
2. Is the material harmful when used in the way it was designed?
3. Is it more or less safe to be used in the way it was designed when compared to organic cotton?

IMO, these are the three things we should all be asking, and nobody should demand a change until all 3 are answered. If a change is made to cotton, then we will never know.


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[drunkenbatman]

I wonder about the BVC's that replaced the BDC's. like the ones used in a Vivi Nova. Are they potentially harmful like the nautilus and Atlantis BVC's?

Yeah, I was careful to double check that recently. My understanding is the Aspire BVC Clearomizer replacement coils use ceramic wicks, just in a smaller BDC form factor as a drop-in replacement.

 

[caramel]

My impression is that the Nautilus BVC uses a similar material. Haven't used a BDC yet.

 

[caramel]

if the japanese were interested by this industry we'd be using some miniature carburetors/injectors by now.

 

[Firecrow]

I totally agree with you. My only concern, and I feel it's a very valid one, is that we could be eliminating a viable (and possibly safer) alternative, due to a small group of very vocal opposers. IMO, nobody wins with this type of outcome. A real win would be for someone to actually do a study on the material and the effects of its use in vaping. But, a company who isn't in the healthcare business with huge funding, isn't going to do that. It doesn't mean they don't care, or that the material is bad, it merely means that they can't afford to do it or that they think the amount it would cost wouldn't be worth the return in investment.

I'm definitely guilty about being vocal about it, but my request was for more information, not for them to take it off the market - they are very sure its safe based on their own evidence - I just want to see that evidence so I can make my own assessment. Whether they keep it on the market or not is entirely their decision.

I know from my point of view, I personally am not satisfied with what I've gotten so far, so the 2 Atlantis's are cleaned up and on the shelf until I'm satisfied its safe to use. This is my own assessment, others may feel differently. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, I'm just making rational adult decisions about my health (not entirely true, if that was the case, I wouldn't be vaping in the first place... its all relative

 

[chargingcharlie]

I'm definitely guilty about being vocal about it, but my request was for more information, not for them to take it off the market - they are very sure its safe based on their own evidence - I just want to see that evidence so I can make my own assessment. Whether they keep it on the market or not is entirely their decision.

I know from my point of view, I personally am not satisfied with what I've gotten so far, so the 2 Atlantis's are cleaned up and on the shelf until I'm satisfied its safe to use. This is my own assessment, others may feel differently. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, I'm just making rational adult decisions about my health (not entirely true, if that was the case, I wouldn't be vaping in the first place... its all relative

I think your posts have been very informative and non-biased. IMO, anyone who decides to not use them, based on what is currently known, have a very valid reason. I just find it strange for others to think that, the fact that Aspire is contemplating the idea of switching over to cotton, is any type of "win" or admition to guilt. In my humble opinion, the whole ordeal seems no different than the type of witch hunt that the Food Babe leads in the food industry. It just rubs me the wrong way. If the material does prove to be harmful, then I'll be right there behind those against it. But, I just can't put myself in that position with the current lack of information from both sides of the discussion. I totally understand that the onus is on them to prove its safe. But, if it's less expensive for them to switch to cotton rather than prove to us it is as safe as cotton, then that's what they are going to do unless they have a lot of money to throw away. I have a feeling that we will never know the truth until some private third party takes it on and does independent testing...and, based on how small the Valing community is, I doubt that isn't going to happen unless its funded by a bunch of people in our position who actually care.


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[seminolewind]

I have not seen any organizations, dealers, manufacturers, do as much self policing as this whole vaping community has. During this whole past 10 years or more of vaping, we all have seen who the liars, cheaters, rumor mongers, and greedy politicians and cigarette companies really are. Starting with the top-the FDA, right on down to Consumer Reports, who fill their articles full of BS without checking their facts-which has shown me what they really think of consumers.

Outside vaping, I really don't trust anyone anymore. I have yet to be $crewed by the vaping industry.

 

[Katya]

They may be in the corporate board room scratching their heads wondering why this material is being persecuted when according to their own research it is a major step forward, but deciding if that's what the vaping community wants and it meets corporate goals they will make it happen.

If they have done research, why don't they just release the results, instead of scratching their heads? Dr. Farsalinos does research and then publishes it--for all to see and question and debate and try to replicate, if they so desire. That's what researchers do. And if their research is not as good as they keep telling us, they can send a box of BVC coils to Dr. Farsalinos and ask him to test them and publish the results that will most certainly be respected and accepted by most in the vaping community. I'm sure that good Dr. F would love to accommodate them and I can't imagine that the cost of such tests (checking for presence of fibers in exhaled vapor and/or in eliquid) would be prohibitive. The company is making hundreds of thousands of dollars selling those coils. All they need to do is show us a legitimate test result that proves that nothing untoward was found in the vapor and/or the eliquid. Just like the Drexel study did.

IMHO, they should have done so in August, when people first started asking questions.

 

[Katya]

Its kind of funny about the aspire thing,
Former Smokers of Cig's put 4k chemicals in their body to include one radioactive isotope and never once myself did question it, there has been more research on the Ill effects of wicking material alone then ever in the history of cigs in total.

Can't speak for other former smokers, but I switched to vaping in order to avoid those 4K chemicals, including the Polonium , diacetyl, and various "aldehydes," and try to be kinder to my poor damaged lungs.

If it is cotton then yah its prob. bad for you to breath in, I can agree there. As for Fiberglass your body will expel that as its a foreign particle (if it were so dangerous, people installing insulation would have kicked the bucket long ago). Remember that the body is an amazing machine that will protect itself from foreign particles (you cough because vapor is a foreign particle, so is Nicotine for that matter). I'd say that since the aspire has a rebuild-able head option then there is the possibility to rebuild the heads until they get this sorted out, be your own quality control in a sense.

That statement is actually incorrect. And that is exactly why I started questioning the use of fiberglass/ceramic in BVC coils.

http://srs.unm.edu/industrial-hygiene/media/docs/silica.pdf

"Silica is generally considered to be potentially harmful when very small particles are inhaled deep into the lungs, where the macrophages are unable to remove the fragments which then become lodged in the alveolar lung tissue, causing miliary nodulation (classic silicosis) and scarring/fibrotic changes in both lungs."

"Amorphous Silica: Multiple studies have found amorphous silica to be biologically inert when ingested and inhaled, with the exception of extruded fiberglass and ceramic fibers (which have been designated as carcinogens by the National Toxicology Program), which are hazardous due to their very small size and their high length to width aspect ratio. Because of this inertness, the US Food and Drug Administration permits the use of amorphous silica (not fiberglass or ceramic fibers!) in food and medicine.

Pleas also read Firecrow's post #517 below--or look up silicosis.

Just a thought, I do agree with you however on this one Katya.

Much appreciated!

 

[Katya]

There's really nothing curious about it at all. A smart company takes the fastest and most effective course of action to get rid of a problem; and this would be exactly that. For all we know, they can just be shelving their material until testing is done that would provide enough solid data to make the general public trust it more. That type of extensive testing isn't inexpensive, and it doesn't happen quickly.


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If that's what they are doing, I applaud them.

However, they claim that they have done "thousands of tests" themselves, whatever that means, so if they are so convinced of the safety of their product, they could keep it on the market and just introduce an additional line of BVC coils wrapped in Japanese organic cotton. They could call them OC BVC, make even more money, and perhaps let the market decide. Win-win!

 

[Katya]

1. Is it truly fiberglass, or is it ceramic paper?

According to the experts from the University of New Mexico (see post #529) it makes no difference whatsoever. With all due respect, you are fixating on the word ceramic as if it were any better than fiberglass. It isn't.

2. Is the material harmful when used in the way it was designed?

Yup, that is the question. There is a strong possibility that it may be harmful even if used the way it was designed [refill a few times (how many times, exactly? the manufacturer does not specify how many refills are recommended and how soon the coil should be discarded.)]

I have seen many post describing suspicious-looking gunk particles floating in people's eliquids or trapped in the screen. This is but the lastest one:

So after only like 3-4 tank fills im noticing a lot of black gunk on the coil, some of which is dislodging itself and moving up the chimney towards to mouth piece. I took the coil out and removed some of it with a tooth pick. Its not the filler, im almost 100% sure its just buildup from my juice but it seems to be happening very fast. Is this happening to anyone else? I love the tank but i also dont want to be inhaling pieces of buildup either.

I've been vaping for 5 years. I have used all kinds of stock coils and wicks in various atomizers, cartomizers, clearomizers, you name it, but I have never encountered any dislodged particles of any kind in any of them. I've seen gunked up coils, I've seen burnt filler during autopsies, I've experienced darkening of eliquids in some tanks, but not floating debris...

And I know of no manufacturer who had to install a mesh filter to keep "stuff" from entering users' mouths.

That said, no material is ever used exactly as it was designed to. There has to be a margin of safety for people who will use the material outside of the specifications. People make mistakes, they burn their coils, they refill them too many times, they dry burn them and soak them in all kinds of liquids from vinegar to Isopropyl alcohol, they stick them in ultrasonic cleaners and in microwaves. Yes, it's user error, but users do err all the time. I know, I spend a good amount of time in the New Members forum.

Here's a thread that really gave me pause, because it was posted by a veteran vaper with a join date of June 2009:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...nth-old-nautilus-head-looks.html#post14783893

Make sure you wash with running HOT water and leave them for a few days in alcohol... There are two more that are still going, so the timer is still on.

3. Is it more or less safe to be used in the way it was designed when compared to organic cotton?

Probably, maybe, most likely it is more safe--at least in my opinion.

I can assure you that no one can vape on burnt cotton, rayon, hemp or polyfill wick for much longer than a few seconds without noticing a horrible burnt taste and being forced to either discard the atomizer or to rewick it.

So yes, I guess it is safer--at least you're getting an immediate warning that your wick is on fire and you should stop smoking.

 

[Firecrow]

Good lord! There is missing steel screen on that unit!?!?!? I can't believe you wouldn't taste that.

One thing I did notice is the fiberglass wick (I am calling it what their lab test sheet calls it) compacts after one cleaning the in the ultrasonic cleaner - I use denatured water. Was wondering in my head if its effective to do that to new coils to get any loose material out of the atomizer so it doesn't go up the coil.

I can't picture using that coil over 4 months, especially when the OP says she found material floating in the eliquid! I am quite sure that's out of spec use. And precisely an example of what people will do with an atomizer without very direct instructions.

 

[drunkenbatman]

One thing I did notice is the fiberglass wick (I am calling it what their lab test sheet calls it) compacts after one cleaning the in the ultrasonic cleaner - I use denatured water. Was wondering in my head if its effective to do that to new coils to get any loose material out of the atomizer so it doesn't go up the coil.

Uhhhhhhh I want to back away slowly from that idea while not making eye contact. Intentionally agitating and compacting something with crystaline structure (stuff breaking off is bad) feels counterproductive.

I have wondered if tons of pre-rinsing could help remove dust and particulates that haven't broken off, as I know most things (even silica wicks) have lots of stuff just from their production -- but I'm not educated enough. It could help somewhat, it could give a false sense of security, or water pressure could exacerbate it.

Frankly, rewicking with cotton or something just seems like the sane thing to do.

I can't picture using that coil over 4 months, especially when the OP says she found material floating in the eliquid! I am quite sure that's out of spec use. And precisely an example of what people will do with an atomizer without very direct instructions.

In fairness to the companies of the world, people will do all kinds of crazy things with an atomizer whether there are clear instructions or not. I'd still be darkly amused at any important safety feature that went away after one semi-dry hit.

 

[Katya]

I'm not an expert either, so I look things up.

Here's Kurt, our resident chemist, on the subject of washing amorphous silica wicks, which seemed to help him:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...77764-dangers-silica-wicks-5.html#post9181477

But this is not crystalline silica, which we suspect may be present in BVC coils, so there...

 

[chargingcharlie]

According to the experts from the University of New Mexico (see post #529) it makes no difference whatsoever. With all due respect, you are fixating on the word ceramic as if it were any better than fiberglass. It isn't.

There are different types of ceramic so, until we know what's in it, it does matter. Glass is silica, so should we call both the safe and unsafe silica wicks "fiberglass" too?

Yup, that is the question. There is a strong possibility that it may be harmful even if used the way it was designed [refill a few times (how many times, exactly? the manufacturer does not specify how many refills are recommended and how soon the coil should be discarded.)]

They recommend discarding the coils after no more than 2 weeks of use.

I have seen many post describing suspicious-looking gunk particles floating in people's eliquids or trapped in the screen. This is but the lastest one:



I've been vaping for 5 years. I have used all kinds of stock coils and wicks in various atomizers, cartomizers, clearomizers, you name it, but I have never encountered any dislodged particles of any kind in any of them. I've seen gunked up coils, I've seen burnt filler during autopsies, I've experienced darkening of eliquids in some tanks, but not floating debris...

Black debris wouldn't have anything to do with the material in question, because it doesn't burn in that way. If it were the material, it would have been more of a white color. My guess is it was burnt fluid.

And I know of no manufacturer who had to install a mesh filter to keep "stuff" from entering users' mouths.

This is an assumption as well. The screen is described as being their to prevent spit back.

That said, no material is ever used exactly as it was designed to. There has to be a margin of safety for people who will use the material outside of the specifications. People make mistakes, they burn their coils, they refill them too many times, they dry burn them and soak them in all kinds of liquids from vinegar to Isopropyl alcohol, they stick them in ultrasonic cleaners and in microwaves. Yes, it's user error, but users do err all the time. I know, I spend a good amount of time in the New Members forum.

A very small margin of error is expected, but not much more than that.

Here's a thread that really gave me pause, because it was posted by a veteran vaper with a join date of June 2009:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...nth-old-nautilus-head-looks.html#post14783893

And this is a HUGE error. I don't care if this woman has been a "veteran vaper" (what does that even mean?) and a member of ECF since 1988...she apparently hasn't learned enough about safety. First, she used that BVC for 8X it's lifespan. Second, it takes complete ignorance to continue to vape from any coil to the point of it looking like that. I don't know about you, Katya, but I take a look at my coil every time I fill my tank. I also change it once a week.

Probably, maybe, most likely it is more safe--at least in my opinion.

I can assure you that no one can vape on burnt cotton, rayon, hemp or polyfill wick for much longer than a few seconds without noticing a horrible burnt taste and being forced to either discard the atomizer or to rewick it.

So yes, I guess it is safer--at least you're getting an immediate warning that your wick is on fire and you should stop smoking.

Ahh, and here is where I feel you my be thinking of this in the wrong way. Once you've burnt the cotton, you've already inhaled the nasty stuff, and changing the wick doesn't take that back. Being able to know you burnt the wick doesn't make it probably, maybe, most likely safer. That would be like saying that a waterbed filled with acid is more safe because, if it were to burst while you were sleeping, you'd wake up from the acid burn before you drowned. The benefit of a properly made ceramic wick (if this is one of those) is that they don't burn in the way that cotton does.


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[drunkenbatman]

Here's Kurt, our resident chemist, on the subject of washing amorphous silica wicks, which seemed to help him:

The "dangers" of silica wicks

But this is not crystalline silica, which we suspect may be present in BVC coils, so there...

I cannot stress enough for anyone who sees this that what applies for amorphous silica cannot be construed as applying to the fiberglass/ceramic paper in the BVC coils. I'm a concerned someone could see your post about it helping Kurt, going "oh, i should boil and rinse to get rid of..." when who knows what that could be doing to the structures -- since I don't, I'm assuming it could make things much worse.

Again, what helped Kurt in terms of particulates from the production process that came on some of his normal amorphous silica wicks should not be construed as being helpful for your BVC coils.

 

[Racehorse]

Can't speak for other former smokers, but I switched to vaping in order to avoid those 4K chemicals, including the Polonium , diacetyl, and various "aldehydes," and try to be kinder to my poor damaged lungs.

You described me. I'm very pro-vaping. I quit smoking and I give it its just due. That does not preclude speaking out if and when something appears to be a bit worrisome.

Our resident chemist did also:

As for the other comment about ecigs being less damaging to the lungs, and that is good enough, great, glad that is good enough for you! There are a great number of people here, however, that are very interested in the possible risks from vaping, and how to minimize them.

@BlkWolfMidnight: FORMER smoker also describes me. There is a reason I don't smoke anymore. A certain (higher) consciousness takes place in oneself upon the realization of no longer settling for damaging yourself by engaging in a self-destructive habit. And it begins to reflect in other areas of life......physically, mentally, spiritually.

So yes, I AM concerned when I see something in a vaping product that appears to present an avoidable risk. My vaping life isn't going to be at all crippled because I can't use X, Y, or Z. Why? Because I already committed to harm reduction.........as much as possible.

Therefore, I just never "get" the argument that because I smoked I should somehow continue to do things which I believe may bring harm to myself, or increase my risk for harm. I certainly don't *deserve* to hurt myself just because I once smoked.

Because I once smoked, doesn't mean that I deserve to be harmed, be a guinea pig, "she smoked so who cares" .......no.

(but strangely, these do seem like things the ANTZ think about a vaper like me, which is why I find it disturbing to see it parroted here. )

To be honest, that not only seems careless and cavelier, but perhaps speaks to a rather low self-esteem and self-value.

Do I worry that talking about these things might be picked up and used as ammo by the opposition? No. Because a cause should never become more important than the individuals it is designed to serve.

If there are discoverable concerns about a product, then they should be discussed openly.

 

[Katya]

There are different types of ceramic so, until we know what's in it, it does matter. Glass is silica, so should we call both the safe and unsafe silica wicks "fiberglass" too?

I want to know what it is. I've been asking the company since August.

They recommend discarding the coils after no more than 2 weeks of use.

OK. The user whose post I linked had floaters in his juice after 4 refills.

Black debris wouldn't have anything to do with the material in question, because it doesn't burn in that way. If it were the material, it would have been more of a white color. My guess is it was burnt fluid.

Your guess. Right.

This is an assumption as well. The screen is described as being their to prevent spit back.

Not any more. That was their initial explanation. Here's the later version. From the OP:

Aspire Support: •View topic - Aspire official statement on Atlantis coils material

"The ceramic paper that has been in question here is fully incased in organic cotton, and has a screen to keep the wicking material in its place."


If this material doesn't disintegrate in normal use, why do they need to add a cotton wrap and a screen to "keep the wicking material in place"?????

A very small margin of error is expected, but not much more than that.

Right.

And this is a HUGE error. I don't care if this woman has been a "veteran vaper" (what does that even mean?) and a member of ECF since 1988...she apparently hasn't learned enough about safety. First, she used that BVC for 8X it's lifespan. Second, it takes complete ignorance to continue to vape from any coil to the point of it looking like that. I don't know about you, Katya, but I take a look at my coil every time I fill my tank. I also change it once a week.

It's not easy to take a look at an enclosed coil without ripping the coil head apart.

It's not about you or me--it's about what a user may do. Yes, hers is an extreme case, but it is a real world case, nonetheless.

Ahh, and here is where I feel you my be thinking of this in the wrong way.

I know you think I'm thinking about it the wrong way. We'll just have to leave it at that!

 

[chargingcharlie]

I cannot stress enough for anyone who sees this that what applies for amorphous silica cannot be construed as applying to the fiberglass/ceramic paper in the BVC coils. I'm a concerned someone could see your post about it helping Kurt, going "oh, i should boil and rinse to get rid of..." when who knows what that could be doing to the structures -- since I don't, I'm assuming it could make things much worse.

Again, what helped Kurt in terms of particulates from the production process that came on some of his normal amorphous silica wicks should not be construed as being helpful for your BVC coils.

I agree with this 100%. Somebody asked Aspire (in their forum) if they could clean their coils with hot water between use of different flavors and they said that the BVC coils should not be cleaned with anything. They recommended using juice with no flavor to clear out flavor and to throw away any BVCs that have been rinsed with water.


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[Katya]

I agree with this 100%. Somebody asked Aspire (in their forum) if they could clean their coils with hot water between use of different flavors and they said that the BVC coils should not be cleaned with anything. They recommended using juice with no flavor to clear out flavor and to throw away any BVCs that have been rinsed with water.


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That would indicate further that the material in question is NOT amorphous silica, which is safe and totally washable.

It's not speculation--it's inference.