Aspire official statement on Atlantis coils material

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chargingcharlie

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BTW, I know I come of as a very opinionated person, but a lot of that perception is due to my lack of the ability to write things in a way that sound exactly as I intend for them to come across. I'm a huge proponent of critical thinking and skepticism. That means that I don't solidly believe that anything is good, bad, or fact until I see solid proof. When I do, I have absolutely no problem admitting that I was wrong and/or changing my stance on any subject. I've cut many things out of my life and daily routine based on studies, but I also don't give other people grief about their decisions if they choose to ignore the science behind them. Adults can do what they want, IMO. I would love for my wife to give up smoking, and I certainly don't want to see her go through what my dad is living through right now after more than 50 years of smoking. But, if she can't manage to quit and be happy, then I won't give her a hard time about it. I quit smoking in 1998 when I saw how harmful it is to people, and I quit dipping snuff two years after that. In 2007 I stopped drinking all forms of alcohol after seeing it ruin the lives of so many people I love. I used to love all three of those vices, but they just weren't worth the consequences to me. If I find that vaping is a lot worse than we currently believe it is, then I'll have to decide if it's worth it to me and either continue on or stop.
 

beckdg

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I can respect that.

I do want to point out though that regardless of perception, the only solid (legitimized) issue the public has been made aware of via the media is explosions and fires due to the (mis) use of ecigs. Almost all of which that are reported and/or known being traced back to ego style batteries.

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chargingcharlie

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I'll try to get some hi-res photos the next time I pull one apart because I'm just as curious as you all are about these. I'm just not overly concerned at this point due to the fact that I don't vape huge amounts every day. I just had my camera setup, and a magnifying glass positioned so I could get up closer than my 50mm lens would permit, but the wick wasn't cooperating and i wound up pushing a screwdriver through it :(

I will say, though, that I did see the thin cotton layers that they mention in their statement, and I did notice them the last time I pulled one apart. I didn't realize it was cotton at the time, though, I just thought it was a backer material.

BVC.png
 

chargingcharlie

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I can respect that.

I do want to point out though that regardless of perception, the only solid (legitimized) issue the public has been made aware of via the media is explosions and fires due to the (mis) use of ecigs. Almost all of which that are reported and/or known being traced back to ego style batteries.

Sent from my device.

I thought that the doctor that Katya has mentioned did a study on possible negative health affects caused from vaping at too high of a temperature? I could be wrong, but I thought I saw that mentioned somewhere. I'll have to look it up and see what it said.
 

Ryedan

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You know I'll be stealing that smiley, don't you. :p

Katya, it's a Kolobok smiley and you can get the whole set here for your browser. Lately the coding has changed from them or maybe the forum software has changed and I have to edit the code to include just '
' after the file extension. It adds a small button on Firefox that I click to have all the smileys appear in a window on the left side of the Firefox window. I've had it for a year at least now and it has not done anything bad to my system (that I know of).

Have fun
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beckdg

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I thought that the doctor that Katya has mentioned did a study on possible negative health affects caused from vaping at too high of a temperature? I could be wrong, but I thought I saw that mentioned somewhere. I'll have to look it up and see what it said.
Yes.

Konstantino Farsalinos did find harmful compounds from vaping at too high a temp. (Not to be confused with wattage or power)

Though;

1 I doubt the general public is aware of it and

2 If you're vaping at those temps you're getting burnt hits. It should be obvious something is wrong.

Sent from my device.
 
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Firecrow

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6ZBh4X8wQo

This guys video seals it for me. The coil burns a hole through the cotton separation layer and your coil is then directly exposed to what is essentially a physically unstable flaking material that you don't want in your lungs. If I want to use my two Atlantis tanks from now on I am going to rebuild them as cotton. No point in taking unnecessary risks for the sake of convenience. Sucks for those who don't rebuild but I couldn't recommend a BVC coil knowing what I saw in that video.

This is just my opinion, I could be wrong about the material and its potential for uptake into the lungs, but it doesn't pass my personal risk versus reward test.
 
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Ryedan

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I'm a huge proponent of critical thinking and skepticism. That means that I don't solidly believe that anything is good, bad, or fact until I see solid proof. When I do, I have absolutely no problem admitting that I was wrong and/or changing my stance on any subject.

I'm pretty much the same way chargingcharlie. I do my best not to get sucked into hype, opinion, FUD and bad science. However there is a lot in life we do not have solid proof for and I feel it's in my best interest to form opinions as best I can from what data I have available at the time about the level of risk involved. I realize my level of acceptable risk is not the same as everyone's, so I don't push things unless I think someone is doing something that I'm reasonably sure is dangerous.

IMO the best deal we can all have is for facts to be known and unknowns to be brought forward to let people make up their own minds about things. Not talking about things to avoid some people being uncomfortable is never a viable option for me.
 

chargingcharlie

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6ZBh4X8wQo

This guys video seals it for me. The coil burns a hole through the cotton separation layer and your coil is then directly exposed to what is essentially a physically unstable flaking material that you don't want in your lungs. If I want to use my two Atlantis tanks from now on I am going to rebuild them as cotton. No point in taking unnecessary risks for the sake of convenience. Sucks for those who don't rebuild but I couldn't recommend a BVC coil knowing what I saw in that video.

This is just my opinion, I could be wrong about the material and its potential for uptake into the lungs, but it doesn't pass my personal risk versus reward test.
That has some really nice closeups, that show how they are built, as well as what is in them. When I pulled my first one apart, I did see the black color on the cotton layer that wraps around the coil, but mine definitely wasn't burnt in that way. It didn't smell burnt, it appeared to be more of a result of the colored juices I was vaping at the time. All of the juice I'm vaping right now is colorless, for the most part, so I'll be curious to see how the next coil looks when I pull it apart. I haven't rebuilt any coils for these yet, so I do have a question about the video. Don't you want the coil to be compressed, rather than stretched out, for it to have an even heating surface? I'm confused about why he said that you don't want the coil "rings" to touch in the video. The coils I've pulled out of these appear to be much more tightly wound than the way he wrapped his. Also, if we find that it is common for these to burn in that way, I wonder if they would be more suitable for running at lower watts but more of a concern at higher watts.

I'm pretty much the same way chargingcharlie. I do my best not to get sucked into hype, opinion, FUD and bad science. However there is a lot in life we do not have solid proof for and I feel it's in my best interest to form opinions as best I can from what data I have available at the time about the level of risk involved. I realize my level of acceptable risk is not the same as everyone's, so I don't push things unless I think someone is doing something that I'm reasonably sure is dangerous.

IMO the best deal we can all have is for facts to be known and unknowns to be brought forward to let people make up their own minds about things. Not talking about things to avoid some people being uncomfortable is never a viable option for me.

I agree 100% I'm not advocating people not talking about it being a potential problem. I just have an issue with some of the fear mongering that people are participating in with this product. I don't advocate people saying these are perfectly safe anymore than I advocate people saying that they are harmful.
 

Firecrow

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This used head has been put through an ultrasonic cleaner - very effectively I may add, and allowed to dry.



Notice the thermal decomposition of the cotton that was touching the coils.

I did notice after cleaning that the Aspire whatever-it-is material became much less flaky and compacted quite a bit. If using these heads its possible pre-cleaning using the method I did might reduce post-manufacturing loose particles, but that's just speculation.

The concern I have is the burn-through. If the cotton is promoted as a protective barrier to the material in question, it is ineffective. I had no burnt taste or any indication that I could detect that this unit was "done", the flavor just became muted.

Decide for yourself, this is information only.
 

chargingcharlie

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This used head has been put through an ultrasonic cleaner - very effectively I may add, and allowed to dry.





Notice the thermal decomposition of the cotton that was touching the coils.

I did notice after cleaning that the Aspire whatever-it-is material became much less flaky and compacted quite a bit. If using these heads its possible pre-cleaning using the method I did might reduce post-manufacturing loose particles, but that's just speculation.

The concern I have is the burn-through. If the cotton is promoted as a protective barrier to the material in question, it is ineffective. I had no burnt taste or any indication that I could detect that this unit was "done", the flavor just became muted.

Decide for yourself, this is information only.
Thanks for those pictures! What do you think is causing the cotton to burn? Poor coil design, or maybe the layer is just too thin?
 

Ryedan

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I agree 100% I'm not advocating people not talking about it being a potential problem. I just have an issue with some of the fear mongering that people are participating in with this product.

I've seen people jump to conclusions so many times I mostly try to ignore it now. Not everyone thinks logically and the more people in the room the more will be in that group. If it becomes what I consider fear mongering, which can go both ways (we shouldn't be talking about this because it will do more harm than good, or it is unsafe), I generally say something like I've done once in this thread. I have not seen fear mongering here except for that one time that I can remember.

I don't advocate people saying these are perfectly safe anymore than I advocate people saying that they are harmful.

Well, is there anything in life that is perfectly safe? :)

IMO all we can say right now is that there is not enough data on hand to be certain. In this case it's up to everyone to make up their own mind and either side could turn out to be correct on this one. I will not recommend these attys to anyone and if asked my opinion I will give it and refer them to this thread because there is so much good information here. I would not vape these myself because I consider the risk too high for me.
 

Ryedan

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What do you think is causing the cotton to burn? Poor coil design, or maybe the layer is just too thin?

Wicks burn when the temperature of the coil gets too high. It gets too high because the wick got too dry. So you need to either turn down the power so juice is not vaporized as fast and the wicking can keep up, or increase wicking speed.

I forgot about air flow. Using the same setup, the coil will run hotter if you drag slower.
 
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chargingcharlie

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Wicks burn when the temperature of the coil gets too high. It gets too high because the wick got too dry. So you need to either turn down the power so juice is not vaporized as fast and the wicking can keep up, or increase wicking speed.

I forgot about air flow. Using the same setup, the coil will run hotter if you drag slower.

Thanks, that's what I was thinking, too. I run my BVC at 1 click below wide open at 8W on a 1.6Ω coil right now and that seems to be the sweet spot for the way I draw from it.


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Firecrow

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Well, is there anything in life that is perfectly safe? :)

No, but that statement is too broad to apply to everything as a rationalization for doing it.

The problem is we are dealing with a lot of unknowns. We don't have long term medical surveillance, vendors don't fully disclose or even know themselves what the materials in their products result in after thermal decomposition and there are no immediate effects or evidence that makes the assessment clear. And a lot of these products come from a country with few controls in place that would otherwise enforce more vigorous consumer protections, and in the name of free trade, we bring these products into our consumer cycle with little oversight (at this point).

I work in the fire service. I teach the chemistry of pyrolysis and hazardous materials. I actively firefight and I wear and service SCBA (self contained breathing apparatus) and I observe and am exposed to a lot of their byproducts.

One thing I am very aware of is respiratory protection as it pertains to byproducts of combustion and byproducts of incomplete combustion. What we have learned in the last five years is that incomplete combustion is far worse than we ever thought. And while we believe vaping is a non-combustion process, I can tell you as someone with *some* expertise in fire science, that when an atomizer leaves charring, an incomplete combustion process has occurred. Thermal decomposition is extremely complex as its input are analog processes - random quantities of heat, oxygen, reducing agents, their ignition temperatures and their chemistry all change under their unique conditions. That's why no two fires are alike. Even the thermal cooling influence of juice on coil affects the results.

If I put on an arson investigators hat and looked at that photo I can tell you there was a high heat source with direct contact to that material, and the missing material was consumed (the reducing agent) and underwent thermal decomposition. Those same patterns in the picture I posted are the same kinds of things we see on furnishings after a fire.

Thermal decomposition produces smoke and smoke is toxic by its nature. It contains aerosols, particulates and gases, even if it is in minute quantities. Worse, it is now suspended in a vapor so as to be undetectable. Short of some extremely complex and expensive analysis, you really don't know what is going up the chimney of an atomizer.

What you can look at is the condition of the reducing agents (wick, coil and char and residue) and make some educated guesses about what might be in it, which is why I take apart atomizers after using them and assess if a combustion process has occurred - that evidence IF present is undeniable.

So, where do we go from here?

Its about personal risk assessment. Gather the information you can. Research as much as you can and be informed as you can about the processes involved and then decide risk versus reward. Nothing is risk free however, some things are clearly more risky than others and that's what makes it a personal decision.

Subohming introduces far more risk because the temperatures create radiant and contact energies high enough to result in thermal decomposition and that is an alarm bell that we should ALL be aware of.

One example from the fire service I can give you. For years we thought just man-made materials gave off toxic byproducts. We have now discovered that even a bale of hay produces hydrogen cyanide (H2S) in varying quantities - we were all shocked by this and the service has now been introducing air monitoring programs at fires to look for this. Hydrogen cyanide and carbon monoxide (CO - also called when together the "evil twins") are found in organic-only (ordinary combustible class A) fires and are a health risk if inhaled. Hydrogen cyanide attacks muscle tissue and particularly heart muscle. Carbon monoxide bonds with hemoglobin and prevents the transfer of oxygen to the cells in your body. It is now understood firefighters who die from heart attacks, hours or days later after a big fire may actually have been poisoned from these two byproducts. (Reference:http://www.montanafirechiefs.com/Assets/dept_1/PM/pdf/Toxic Byproducts of Combustion.ppt - Slide 51 in particular)

Sorry, its a long post but I wanted to brain dump this to put the picture into the context as I see it. You're welcome to whatever conclusions you want to make yourselves, but that's mine.
 
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Firecrow

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Thanks for those pictures! What do you think is causing the cotton to burn? Poor coil design, or maybe the layer is just too thin?

Easy to answer - the coil heated up past the ignition temperature of cotton, and the cotton underwent thermal decomposition. Also the Atlantis coils are composite coils - they have low resistance legs spot welded to the actual coil, passing all the power to the active center of the coil - perhaps its nickle or some other metal (don't know). When I tested the coil, the loops in the center glowed red while the leads did not. So the power is being concentrated in only a few loops.

I think on this basis the coil presents a risk in that one tends to add more power to get better vapor production because only a small part of the coil is actively creating vapor. Better coils are ones made of the same material that is evenly distributed and create even temperature and greater surface area and thus more vapor with less likelihood of creating an over-temperature situation for the wick material, resulting in thermal decomposition.

My personal opinion is that the added unknown material acts as a "juice capacitor" for the cotton, keeping it hydrated. Once that capacitor can't supply enough juice to cool that part of the coil, temperatures rise beyond cotton's ignition temperature.

In my opinion, while it may be a good tasting BVC, its very badly engineered from a safety standpoint as it introduces a failure mechanism that can result in thermal decomposition of the wicking material - precisely what you want to avoid as any rebuilder will tell you (or you already know yourself).
 
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chargingcharlie

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Those two posts were the most informative I've read so far on this subject. The Atlantis BVC coil seems different than the one in the mini. I'll have to look at one of mine, the next time I pull one apart, ad see if the coil is a two part like the Atlantis. The coil in the nautilus mini is much thinner and seems to be wound with the coils much closer together.


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Firecrow

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Those two posts were the most informative I've read so far on this subject. The Atlantis BVC coil seems different than the one in the mini. I'll have to look at one of mine, the next time I pull one apart, ad see if the coil is a two part like the Atlantis. The coil in the nautilus mini is much thinner and seems to be wound with the coils much closer together.

Thank you. I am hoping it doesn't cause a .....storm in this thread or give ANTZ's ammo, but we have to be honest with ourselves.

I recommend that as a standard practice with *any* atomizer you use. If you see charring and missing material, it thermally decomposed and a portion of it went up the chimney in the form of an aerosol, particulate or gas, (or all three) and is a cause for concern for your health. Because we don't know the quantities involved or the specific products, its hard to say its an acceptable or unacceptable exposure level. Given that nobody has keeled over in the middle of subohm vaping, I'd say exposure is low, however, keep in mind the cautionary tale I told about H2S + CO - it took the fire service, who LOOKS for these things up until five years ago to find these things and connect the dots. We are the generation of guinea pigs and 40 years from now we are all going to look smarter for vaping and we're still healthy, or foolish because we're at the end of our lives suffering respiratory or blood toxicity disorders. I hope to be healthy but I can't say I am not concerned.

What I can say, is if you minimize your exposure to atomizers or rebuilds that do this, you will reduce your exposure to incomplete combustion byproducts. This is also why temperature controlled mods excite me - if you can keep the coil from thermally decomposing the wicking material, by keeping it under the ignition temperature (where browning begins to occur) your vape will be safer. But it relies on three things, temperature control being accurate and vaping behavior (puff length etc) and known ignition temperature of the material. Dr. F's study is going to be very enlightening and I hope we get good news, but I think he will also be giving us some cautions as well.
 
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