Aspire official statement on Atlantis coils material

[Firecrow]

This is simply either a bad design, people over powering them with higher wattage devices or using them too often to allow wicking to keep up.

Yes I agree - that's where I was going with that.

 

[Firecrow]

This is where I have a real problem with the Atlantis coil head - note the weld points:

​

Note where the carbon residue resides - it does not really provide a lot of surface area in comparison to the whole coil. To me this coil relies on one big hotspot.

These guys are coming out with TC coils as well shortly - According to Brandon at Evolv they could not construct a TC nickel coil like this as the average temperature reading would be totally out of wack.

 

[Mark Denison]

No, but that statement is too broad to apply to everything as a rationalization for doing it.

The problem is we are dealing with a lot of unknowns. We don't have long term medical surveillance, vendors don't fully disclose or even know themselves what the materials in their products result in after thermal decomposition and there are no immediate effects or evidence that makes the assessment clear. And a lot of these products come from a country with few controls in place that would otherwise enforce more vigorous consumer protections, and in the name of free trade, we bring these products into our consumer cycle with little oversight (at this point).

I work in the fire service. I teach the chemistry of pyrolysis and hazardous materials. I actively firefight and I wear and service SCBA (self contained breathing apparatus) and I observe and am exposed to a lot of their byproducts.

One thing I am very aware of is respiratory protection as it pertains to byproducts of combustion and byproducts of incomplete combustion. What we have learned in the last five years is that incomplete combustion is far worse than we ever thought. And while we believe vaping is a non-combustion process, I can tell you as someone with *some* expertise in fire science, that when an atomizer leaves charring, an incomplete combustion process has occurred. Thermal decomposition is extremely complex as its input are analog processes - random quantities of heat, oxygen, reducing agents, their ignition temperatures and their chemistry all change under their unique conditions. That's why no two fires are alike. Even the thermal cooling influence of juice on coil affects the results.

If I put on an arson investigators hat and looked at that photo I can tell you there was a high heat source with direct contact to that material, and the missing material was consumed (the reducing agent) and underwent thermal decomposition. Those same patterns in the picture I posted are the same kinds of things we see on furnishings after a fire.

Thermal decomposition produces smoke and smoke is toxic by its nature. It contains aerosols, particulates and gases, even if it is in minute quantities. Worse, it is now suspended in a vapor so as to be undetectable. Short of some extremely complex and expensive analysis, you really don't know what is going up the chimney of an atomizer.

What you can look at is the condition of the reducing agents (wick, coil and char and residue) and make some educated guesses about what might be in it, which is why I take apart atomizers after using them and assess if a combustion process has occurred - that evidence IF present is undeniable.

So, where do we go from here?

Its about personal risk assessment. Gather the information you can. Research as much as you can and be informed as you can about the processes involved and then decide risk versus reward. Nothing is risk free however, some things are clearly more risky than others and that's what makes it a personal decision.

Subohming introduces far more risk because the temperatures create radiant and contact energies high enough to result in thermal decomposition and that is an alarm bell that we should ALL be aware of.

One example from the fire service I can give you. For years we thought just man-made materials gave off toxic byproducts. We have now discovered that even a bale of hay produces hydrogen cyanide (H2S) in varying quantities - we were all shocked by this and the service has now been introducing air monitoring programs at fires to look for this. Hydrogen cyanide and carbon monoxide (CO - also called when together the "evil twins") are found in organic-only (ordinary combustible class A) fires and are a health risk if inhaled. Hydrogen cyanide attacks muscle tissue and particularly heart muscle. Carbon monoxide bonds with hemoglobin and prevents the transfer of oxygen to the cells in your body. It is now understood firefighters who die from heart attacks, hours or days later after a big fire may actually have been poisoned from these two byproducts. (Reference:http://www.montanafirechiefs.com/Assets/dept_1/PM/pdf/Toxic Byproducts of Combustion.ppt - Slide 51 in particular)

Sorry, its a long post but I wanted to brain dump this to put the picture into the context as I see it. You're welcome to whatever conclusions you want to make yourselves, but that's mine.

I was on the ehhhh it's still a Lil OKish with me to vape these. But AFTER this post by you Firecrow, I will not b touching this again! Thank you so much for your post!

 

[Mark Denison]

This is where I have a real problem with the Atlantis coil head - note the weld points:

​

Note where the carbon residue resides - it does not really provide a lot of surface area in comparison to the whole coil. To me this coil relies on one big hotspot.

These guys are coming out with TC coils as well shortly - According to Brandon at Evolv they could not construct a TC nickel coil like this as the average temperature reading would be totally out of wack.

I've used both Apire and Kanger's TC heads. Kanger's are much better imo.

 

[chargingcharlie]

This is where I have a real problem with the Atlantis coil head - note the weld points:

​

Note where the carbon residue resides - it does not really provide a lot of surface area in comparison to the whole coil. To me this coil relies on one big hotspot.

These guys are coming out with TC coils as well shortly - According to Brandon at Evolv they could not construct a TC nickel coil like this as the average temperature reading would be totally out of wack.

Are there any pictures like this of the Nautius mini BVC coils? They seem to have the same wick design, but the coil in the nautilus mini looks doesn't appear to be built with the different metals like the Atlantis coils.


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[Firecrow]

Are there any pictures like this of the Nautius mini BVC coils? They seem to have the same wick design, but the coil in the nautilus mini looks doesn't appear to be built with the different metals like the Atlantis coils.

I have a mini - I'll see if I have a used one lying around and do the same comparison. If you have one you can also do the same thing - mind you I think you need to do the wash to get rid of the liquid to see the condition of the wick clearly, especially if you use a dark juice. It easy to mistake dark juice residue for charring.

Update - I took one apart and its hard to say - in this head the wick, which I can't identify is so adhered to the coil with residue I can't separate it easily, but the juice capacitor material seems slighly different - denser than what is in the Atlantis. I will have to rip apart a new head to establish a baseline on the materials. And this one was put through the ultrasonic cleaner too.

I learned from the experience since i used the mini and don't hold onto atomizers for very long - I used them for about 4 days and when they seem to lose juice flow, I immediately change the atomizer. I get about 4 days out of one.

 

[Firecrow]

I've used both Apire and Kanger's TC heads. Kanger's are much better imo.

For me I find the Kanger doesn't give me the same flavor as the Aspire so while I have them, they stay pretty much in the vape pile of late. As I recall Kanger uses silica I think... can anyone here confirm that?

 

[chargingcharlie]

I have a mini - I'll see if I have a used one lying around and do the same comparison. If you have one you can also do the same thing - mind you I think you need to do the wash to get rid of the liquid to see the condition of the wick clearly, especially if you use a dark juice. It easy to mistake dark juice residue for charring.

Update - I took one apart and its hard to say - in this head the wick, which I can't identify is so adhered to the coil with residue I can't separate it easily, but the juice capacitor material seems slighly different - denser than what is in the Atlantis. I will have to rip apart a new head to establish a baseline on the materials. And this one was put through the ultrasonic cleaner too.

I learned from the experience since i used the mini and don't hold onto atomizers for very long - I used them for about 4 days and when they seem to lose juice flow, I immediately change the atomizer. I get about 4 days out of one.

Yeah, the one I pulled apart last week had the thin material o the coil that way, too, and it was soft, but difficult to unwrap without tearing, I have a fresh coil going now, that I'll run only pretty clear juice through, and will pull it apart next week. All of the juice I'm vaping right now juice is clear with with the exception of my banana which has a very slight yellow tint to it, so I'll be curios to see how it looks at the end of the week. My last one was black, but I ran juices through it that had coloring.


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[Firecrow]

I ripped the coil apart on the Mini completely and it has welded legs as well, but they are much shorter, so more of the coil is actually in action. There is also definite signs of charring - but I know I ran that coil way longer than I should have. So I guess the lesson is don't be a cheapskate and change your atomizers often.

 

[Ryedan]

​

Note where the carbon residue resides - it does not really provide a lot of surface area in comparison to the whole coil. To me this coil relies on one big hotspot.

If you or anyone else can tell us what the inside diameter of that coil is and what the wire diameter is it can be modeled in the Steam Engine coil building calculator and a heat flux number will be calculated for a given wattage. That would be very interesting and could be very informative if the numbers are reasonably accurate. Number of coils are important too and I think I see three there.

 

[Firecrow]

If you or anyone else can tell us what the inside diameter of that coil is and what the wire diameter is it can be modeled in the Steam Engine coil building calculator and a heat flux number will be calculated for a given wattage. That would be very interesting and could be very informative if the numbers are reasonably accurate. Number of coils are important too and I think I see three there.

I believe 3.5mm, but the mandrill I was using isn't precise - was a little loose on the 3.5mm so it could be as high as 4mm. You are correct on 3 active wraps.

 

[Katya]

For me I find the Kanger doesn't give me the same flavor as the Aspire so while I have them, they stay pretty much in the vape pile of late. As I recall Kanger uses silica I think... can anyone here confirm that?

Kanger uses standard silica rope wicks in their stock coils, but the coils are horizontal, so the wicks are threaded through the coil--no outside wrap like in cartomizers or Aspire coils. Amorphous silica is inert and is considered safe to use in vaping.

Kanger dual coils have the same build, but there is an additional flavor wick in between the coils. No wrap around the coil:

They also use welded NR-R-NR wire, most likely nichrome.

Kanger Sub Tank coils are different--the final version (the third one, I believe, now called OCC) looks like simplicity itself: big horizontal single coil (kanthal, I presume) and Japanese organic cotton wick. No idea what the coil I.D is. Classic Kayfun build. I couldn't find a still picture, but if you go to 18:30 min you'll see Phil take one apart.

 

[WharfRat1976]

The Atlantis is the panicle of our efforts. The material and technology used has passed hundreds of experiments on specially designed machines...

Well, it's good to know they have reached their panicle

My knee jerk to thses types of threads is their competition blew this information into the winds of corporate assassination and negative marketing.

I always admire vapors attempting to make something that is unsafe at face into something that is safe or maybe less "unsafe."

100% "pure" organic anything atomized and inhaled into your lungs is unsafe. Ensuring "pure metals" in attys is like putting earrings on a pig- like THAT will make the difference.

I just ran 5-8 tank fulls of Nicoticket Wakonda through my Atlantis. The coil and wick and screen was basically black thick gunked SOOT when I was done. I took a pic of it. I vaped that into my lungs. I am not worried about any wick material floating into my lungs at this point LOL. Trust me, the only thing that wandered out of that coil head was a small chuck of black soot and bottom line, nothing could have possibly floated away from that mess.

It is all so laughable.

 

[Katya]

If you or anyone else can tell us what the inside diameter of that coil is and what the wire diameter is it can be modeled in the Steam Engine coil building calculator and a heat flux number will be calculated for a given wattage. That would be very interesting and could be very informative if the numbers are reasonably accurate. Number of coils are important too and I think I see three there.

Rip rebuilds Nautilus coils with 26ga kanthal, 8 wraps, 5/64 drill bit, 1.6Ω. The problem is that you still have to deal with that second layer of polyfill that sits inside the Nautilus coil head. You can take it out for cleaning, but it's almost impossible to put in back in. Other rebuilders just use thin pieces of cotton and stuff them in to cover the holes in the coil head.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAmIJIUeEUg

There are several other tutorials on YouTube.

 

[WharfRat1976]

Here is that coil I just mentioned.

 

[WharfRat1976]

Missing the point johnny. The issue we are concerned about is giving the scientific community fuel to use against us.
All we need is for unsafe products to be out there so that the FDA can say "SEE, we told you so".

They already have enough fuel to fill all the wells in Saudi Arabia 100 times

 

[Katya]

May be slightly off-topic, but I wasn't aware there were such things as flavorings "known" to be safe.

All we know for a fact (after many studies have been conducted and more are under way) is that e-cigarettes in their current state are by far less harmful that tobacco cigarettes. It's all about harm reduction. We need more studies to help us eliminate all potentially harmful ingredients that may still be present in our eliquids.

http://sfata.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/14.10-FARSALINOS-Flavorings.pdf

A new study verifies the lower risk-potential of e-cigarettes but identifies an avoidable risk

Are there any bio-detoxification mechanisms in lungs? YES

 

[WharfRat1976]

IIRC, the ceramic material is woven into the fibre ("paper") and helps regulate the amount of liquid reaching the coil. Because it's porous, it will absorb liquid but as its ceramic, it's less likely to be affected by the heat from the coil.

I've still no idea regarding the real reason for the metal screen though...

To keep the chunks of ceramic from flying into your lungs duh

 

[WharfRat1976]

Just a couple points/comments/questions/concerns/whateverlabelyouwanttogiveit:

1. What is your level of "safe" and how do you prove a negative? Until it can be proven something I am vaping is more dangerous then smoking tobacco, I will vape. If I have a concern with a specific juice or device, I will avoid it if I have that amount of fear. Campaigning against a juice and/or item does no good other then contributing to #2.

2. We're doomed! Show your concern with the safety of a product by refusing to buy/use the product. Public inquiries and discussions will only fuel the fire leading to government control of the product, which the government is already highly interested in and motivated to acquire. I'm not disagreeing with the concerns and interest in this subject, but by policing our own "hobby", we give the impression we want the government to "come to our aid" and it is fairly safe to say their approval is not an assurance any of our concerns are not founded.

Now, if you will excuse me, I am going to get in my car and drive to Mickey D's and grab a burger and fries, walk across the street to the drug store and pick up my meds, and grab some red dye while I am there. When I get home, I am going to put my Atlantis away cuase it has not been proven to be safe beyond a shadow of a doubt.

What about all the emissions you will suck into your lungs??? LOL

 

[Katya]

These guys are coming out with TC coils as well shortly - According to Brandon at Evolv they could not construct a TC nickel coil like this as the average temperature reading would be totally out of wack.

Commercially made nickel coils are already available--Vapor Shark carries both Kanger and Aspire coils. I haven't tried them, because, well, I don't have a DNA 40 mod yet.