At my wits end... a cry for help.

[UnFettered_Soul]

VG is sweet tasting, but not necessarily used to sweeten the juice.
Ethyl Maltol (not sure I spelled that right) is used frequently as a sweetener. Surculose is also.
Colorings are also used some may be sensitive to.

Higher nic does equal better throat hit, but there are ways around that.

Higher VG = more vapor, less flavor
Higher PG = less vapor, more flavor

Quite a few people are sensitive to PG.
I don't know why either PG/VG or nic may spike your blood sugars.

I love the higher VG. It makes me clear my throat "every 5 flipping seconds".


There are vendors that carry organic juices.
DIY is a good option. Initial set up will run you a few bucks. After that, it's basically just flavors that work for you.
I personally can only do sweet or something like black tea.
With DIY, keep in mind, most flavorings that you think should be sweet will taste sweet. NO need to add extra sweet stuff.
Make small batches so your test runs produce less waste.

RBAs and better battery set ups can improve your experience.
A GOOD RBA.
They can also improve taste and throat hit.
You can also "drip" with an RBA to test juices so you aren't filling a tank just to try to suck the juice back out if the juice fails for some reason.
Turning the cap on an RBA, as suggested earlier, can improve the throat hit, but can also reduce the vapor amount.
I know there are some that add alcohol to their juice to improve throat hit. Vodka has been mentioned.
I don't, so don't know much about it. Please do a search.
I also have NO clue how it may affect you..... headaches/sugar spikes.
My apologies.... this wouldn't be a good idea for a recovering alcoholic.

Your taste buds will mess with you for a while longer. Especially if you are still having the occasional analog.
They will come around.

Stick with it, ask all the questions you want and rant as you need to.
Do talk with your Doc. A surprising amount are for vaping in lieu of analogs.
Keep us posted, we're here for you.

 

[UnFettered_Soul]

Oh!
And I also agree with the advice to try, if you have not already, eliminating then reintroducing, different ingredients to see if you are sensitive to them.
And, you aren't getting all those other chemicals as with analogs, so your reaction to the nic may be different.

Try some hemp oil or shea butter type lotions if you aren't sensitive to those.
The better ones are found online rather than drug stores.

Good luck!

 

[Rachy_B]

As neither a doctor nor a diabetic it's tricky.

Certainly DIY might help you. You could try varying amounts of PG and VG, and many different flavours at a much cheaper cost. You could also try flavourless. This would help you eliminate possible causes within the juice.

I also question whether your blood sugars spiked when you smoked or using any 'conventional' NRT previous to this.

Drinking more water is, of course, the popular answer as it so often solves the problem. In your case, I'm questioning that. When I was little there was a question as to whether I was diabetic because of my fluid intake and output (lots!) so this point hasn't come from nowhere. As a diabetic armed with the information, am i right to question this in that you could be drinking too much water? You'd certainly need more than usual if you're vaping but even non-diabetics can overuse it. I'm NOT advocating that you drink less water, I would actually like it if you could explain diabetes and water drinking to me, please

Finally, please, please speak to your doctor about this. Your immediate health comes first and I would hate for you to harm yourself in any way. I actually hate myself a little bit for saying this but if it means weaning yourself onto nic juice from cigs, or take a break from coming off the cigs for a while until you have the right set-up. I found this- take it with a pinch of salt as I'm not sure how legitimate it is though - http://www.ecigarettedirect.co.uk/ashtray-blog/2012/08/diabetes-e-cigarettes.html . It might be worth doing a google search too, to see if there are other diabetics who've struggled but this is absolutely not a replacement for speaking with your physician!x

 

[tomf]

Hey Guys,

Thank you, thank you, thank you for all your suggestions. I was actually in the doctor's today for a med pick up and asked to speak with my Doc briefly. Here's the scoop:
- He had no clue about ecigs. Ha!
- BUT nicotine raises BG. Without a doubt.
- We did see some spikes when I was using high mg nicotine gum.
-At this point, my breathing sounds better and my BG has gone the other way. Not dramatically, but on the LOW side of normal.
- Rash seems to be an allergic reaction to PG.
- Water consumption is good.
- TOOTH pain. Get this. He asked, "is any of the liquid getting into your mouth when you inhale?" That's when it hit me. I've had a series of flooded cartos over the last week or so. With all my experimenting with different ratios, I tend to make a pretty big hole to accommodate the higher VG ratio. I'll update you all with progress on that front.
- He said basically what you all have been saying. If this is really the route I want to go I need to start all over with unflavored stuff at different ratios, mg. I'll be researching flavor allergies today.

That's all from the front. I'll continue to update on progress and conclusions. THANK YOU!

 

[tomf]

No alcohol or other extracurricular activities for 5 years come 4/20. Do I sound like I'm a blast at parties or what? Haha

 

[Whodoo]

Definitely try a Rba. I've been on a similar stressed out merry go 'round with ecig vaping, but a $30 Eternity rba has really turned things for the better in my case.

Its so weird to me still that a harm reduction tool can be so tedious, consume SO MUCH time & $$...its such a drag. This isn't a hobby for me, its one way for me to get healthy & the only way thus far with positive results.

Keep at it & experiment within the guidelines your doctor set out. You will get there.

 

[fourthrok]

First...I haven't read the whole thread but did read the OP.

VG is NOT the answer to all the ills people might have with vaping. In fact...it can seriously contribute to it! For example? throat clearing, feeling that awful lingering taste, low TH, muted flavor. Too. Sweet. So many people blame PG for their vaping troubles and jump to VG. Not always a good plan. Heretofore I've never been "sensitive" to anything nor have I any valid "allergies". But VG? That stuff messes me up! I can take small doses (up to maybe 15% in a mix with PG) but it coats my throat, is so sweet it alters my juice flavor, and it makes me feel that oily sluggish feeling in my lungs and body in general. It also made me feel sick and seemed to exacerbate my mild blood sugar issues. (not diabetic...but am pre-diabetic). Had to jettison the stuff completely for months and only gradually added a little back into my DIY to boost vapor production. Very little. I was getting plenty of vapor, but got jealous of all the people blathering on about how "wonderful" VG was for vapor. So I was assimilated.

PG is not a villain. If you are one of the maybe 3% of people in the world with a PG sensitivity I suppose it could be...but it's not really likely that's the case. PG delivers better throat hit. Yes. It does. People might argue the point but they are wrong. It also delivers better flavor. There. I said it.

I started with 24 and 18mg. 16 months ago (no ciggies since I started) and worked my way down slowly to 4mg. now..and I get tons of throat hit. Yes, I do vape menthol. But the thing that really PUNCHES the TH, imho, is the Koolada I add. In fact...I make 60ml. at a time of my DIY, and only use 29 drops of Koolada for the whole bottle...or about 1.5ml. That ain't much in a big bottle. I'm even thinking maybe I ought to cut back a drop or two....

Koolada doesn't add ANY flavor...but does impart an icy blast that enhances any flavor and can really deliver the TH. Worth a try. You can add a couple of drops to pre-made juice too..but go EASY to start! You can get Koolada in The Flavor Apprentice section pretty much anywhere that sells DIY stuff and carries TFA. Good luck, and welcome!

 

[mare ze dotes]

I have flavor allergies. When I started a bought a sampler set and broke out in hives from the bottles with out ever opening them much less vaping them. Much like perfumes or sented candles, just being next to them sets me off. Like before mentioned, I then bought PV at 24 mg/ml nic and zero nic, same with the VG. Got a measuring device (in my case a syringe) and went to experimenting.

That worked out for me. I dont mind being flavorless.

 

[TheAngryBovine]

Have you tried cinnamon instead of menthol for throat hit? I find, for me, it gives a good th when I don't feel like menthol.

 

[Racehorse]

I'll give the flavorless stuff a run tomorrow and let you know how it goes.

There are vapers here who cannot vape with flavorings. They get migraines and other kinds of inflammatory / immune system reponse to flavorings. Just tryin to cover all the bases for you.

I hope it all works out for you.

 

[beckyblue]

Hi Tom. So sorry to hear about your frustrations. A lot of vapers with various sensitivities to the components of ejuice have had good luck with the ecopure line of liquids. Last I checked, the best price was at cignots. Though it is %100 vg, I've had less of that darn throat-clearing with the ecopure regular and rich than with other all-vg stuff. Best of luck to you!

(off-topic -- Racehorse, what happened to your lovely avatar?)

 

[Rachy_B]

Hey Guys,

Thank you, thank you, thank you for all your suggestions. I was actually in the doctor's today for a med pick up and asked to speak with my Doc briefly. Here's the scoop:
- He had no clue about ecigs. Ha!
- BUT nicotine raises BG. Without a doubt.
- We did see some spikes when I was using high mg nicotine gum.
-At this point, my breathing sounds better and my BG has gone the other way. Not dramatically, but on the LOW side of normal.
- Rash seems to be an allergic reaction to PG.
- Water consumption is good.
- TOOTH pain. Get this. He asked, "is any of the liquid getting into your mouth when you inhale?" That's when it hit me. I've had a series of flooded cartos over the last week or so. With all my experimenting with different ratios, I tend to make a pretty big hole to accommodate the higher VG ratio. I'll update you all with progress on that front.
- He said basically what you all have been saying. If this is really the route I want to go I need to start all over with unflavored stuff at different ratios, mg. I'll be researching flavor allergies today.

That's all from the front. I'll continue to update on progress and conclusions. THANK YOU!

Boy am I relieved you've seen your doctor! If you're having flooded cartos and that's getting into your mouth, could that account for the massive spike? (Maybe someone really experienced could answer that...I was just thinking if there's more in your mouth than normal, maybe more is getting absorbed and absorbed too quick?)

Have you seen a dentist lately? Perhaps if you're getting juice in your mouth, its irritating a cavity? I remember having a cavity once and if the tiniest bit of food got anywhere near it, I was in agony! Good oral hygiene is important at the best of times but it becomes infinitely more so when you quit the stinkies! I'm seeing a hygienist next week because all the years of smoking have masked all kinds of nasty problems so I'm getting em fixed.

Definitely keep us up to date with how you get on, and if in any doubt about your diabetes, go straight back to your doctor! Best of luck to you!x

 

[darkhood]

this a very interesting thread, jst gotta say. I hope you find what you're looking for OP

 

[tom18]

Good luck, and obviously if you have allergies... switching to VG will at least clear up your throat.

 

[Balter]

Dude, I feel your pain. The road to vaping has been rocky for me as well.. and I'm still not out of the woods. For my first two weeks to a month (on and off vaping to experiment), I had a horrible knotting pain in my back. You know your own body right? And just like you, I KNEW it was the juice. After experimenting with different ratios, different vendors, different flavors... I finally came to the conclusion that it's VG. Not many people have heard of a sensitivity to VG (although there are some threads), much less some bizarre back pain as a result of it. I don't think I'm allergic.. just sensitive to inhaling it.

Long story short, I can only vape 100%PG. My back pain subsides or is very minimal (maybe still recovering) vaping this. 100%PG gave me a sore throat and horribly swollen lymph nodes at first, but that settled down. I'm still not entirely sure if some of my shortness of breath could be a result of the PG. But I've definitely found my "lesser evil". I'm still working on getting to the coveted "perfect vape with no side effects". And I loved VG because the vapor on most 100%PG juices is weak, but you've gotta compromise somewhere. It's also a bummer because I loved Boba's bounty and PG-Hype, but Alien Visions doesn't customize juice. Make you really appreciate the vendors who do.

It's good to hear you went to an MD and that things might be sorting out for you. The only thing to take away from my story is that you need to keep at, don't give up and unfortunately spend a decent amount of coin finding what works for you. I wish you the best of luck and safe vaping.

 

[tomf]

Hey Guys,

A few updates. I'm still waiting on flavorless stuff to arrive. In the mean time, I've pitched my strong menthol stuff and have been adding a different menthol in very small quantities (to the point where I can barely taste the menthol) in an effort to reduce throat clearing. No headaches and no weird chemical aftertaste in my mouth and my rash seems to be going away... Weird.

Currently at 9mg, 70 vg/30 pg mix.

Also, I've replaced my tank with an Artemis and fitted it with LR laser punched cartos in an attempt to remedy my flooding situation. I have to say, I've read some pretty bad reviews on these flanged cartos and just stayed the heck away from them until now. The ease of changing them out, combined with the lock-in feature on the Artemis and the lack of over all mess when filling the tank... I'm willing to deal with a few duds here and there if things remain this easy. (personally, I haven't had a dud yet. keep your fingers crossed for me). No flooding and no burning so far. BUT my teeth continue to ache. Nowhere near as severe as it was in the OP. But the ache remains.

So, current symptoms include:
Clearing my throat a lot (not every 5 flipping seconds, but still to the point where it's annoying)
Aching teeth (again, reduced but still present)
NEW SYMPTOM - I've been experiencing some nic OD stuff. Heart Racing, dizziness, sweating. I reduced from 12 to 9mg and these seemed to stop. I'll be experimenting with the flavorless stuff.

Resolved symptoms (we hope)
Rash seems to be fading
Headaches are gone
BG is normal

Thanks for keeping me in your thoughts and I appreciate all your advise and concern!
Tom

 

[Rachy_B]

Yey! Progress!

I'd still say see a dentist about those teeth... my trip to the hygienist was more than confusing as she contradicted EVERYTHING my dentist had said! As a thought, has a partner ever complained about you grinding your teeth? Bruxism can be a major problem (speaking from experience here!) and maybe that is a factor? Definitely see a dentist though as smoking masks all kinds of problems and the longer you're away from them, the more they might show. I'd also like to point out that the dentist loves my vaping, the hygienist was a total wally who wanted me to come straight off tobacco/nicotine in an instant...I think I'm gonna post elsewhere about this cos I could rant all day! Lol!

Good on you for cutting down the nic! I think it's fairly common for people to find they're vaping too high or too low at first and having to change it super quickly! You never know, you might be cutting down even further soon!!!! How cool would that be?!

I'm pleased to hear about your other symptoms, too! I'll be keeping my fingers crossed for you!x

 

[mostlyclassics]

It may be the glycerine that's causing your BG spikes. These quotes are from wikipedia articles:

Sugar alcohols do not contribute to tooth decay. However, consumption of sugar alcohols does affect blood sugar levels.

and

As a sugar substitute, it has approximately 27 kilocalories per teaspoon (sugar has 20) and is 60% as sweet as sucrose.

and

As used in foods, glycerol [i.e., glycerine] is categorized by the American Dietetic Association as a carbohydrate. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) carbohydrate designation includes all caloric macronutrients excluding protein and fat. Glycerol has a caloric density similar to table sugar, but a lower glycemic index and different metabolic pathway within the body, so some dietary advocates accept glycerol as a sweetener compatible with low carbohydrate diets.

To translate quote two into a number we commonly use in vaping, one milliliter equals about 1/5th of a teaspoon.

Just something else to consider and/or tell your doctor about.

 

[nchamber68]

I've adjusted my meds to compensate for 1.5 - 3 packs a day. It wasn't intentional... I didn't do a calculation on nicotine consumption vs bloodsugar spikes or anything. I've just adjusted based on my fasting sugar levels, and 5 daily checks. No joke. Largest spike i've had since I got out of the hospital 2 and half years ago was was 340ish. Spikes dropped as soon as I cut the nic levels in the juice. I agree, though. That's a good idea. Stop trying so many flavors, pick one I'm OK with, try different ratios and spreadsheet the .... out of it.

Oh, and, these symptoms aren't one day. We're talking maybe 2 months worth of stuff, here. Like I said, I've been trying to solve this on my own and I'm getting desperate.

I'm type II non-insulin dependent (so far), and nicotine doesn't make my BG spike, but vaping did. Have you considered that your allergy might be causing part of your BG fluctuations? Whenever I consume anything I'm allergic to my BG goes completely nuts. (I suddenly developed anaphylactic shock level allergies 12 years ago.) I've rarely broken 200, unless the doctor had me on steroids (over 600), and since I started vaping I've been over 400 a few times.

I'm lucky because I wasn't having problems with the nicotine and I seem to have been reacting to the VG rather than the PG. As soon as I started taking daily benadryl again my BG stabilized, and once I eliminated the VG I was able to stop taking the antihistamines every day.

A lot of juices have a small amount of sucralose in them, so if you have a problem with artificial sweeteners that could be part of the issue with the headaches.

Even if you aren't having problems with sweeteners, the allergies you are describing could also cause severe headaches. A lot of the time when I have an allergic reaction I'll have a nasty headache for two or three days afterwards because even milder allergic reactions can cause systemic swelling, and you don't even have to swell noticably for it to cause lingering pain.

I'm not a doctor, but if you don't have problems taking benadryl, or some other antihistamine, you might want to think about taking some the next time you get a headache from vaping. I had to take more than 50mg of antihistamines every day for about ten years and the only problem I ever had from them was that they made me hyper (totally abnormal reaction). All antihistamines really do is stop the histamine reaction that leads to swelling, pain and itching...that and make most people sleepy (antihistamines are the only active ingredient in OTC sleep aides). I was also going to suggest that you try a little bit of antihistamine cream on your rash too.

The nicotine cravings might be worsened by the lack of throat hit you get with lower nic and high VG juice, so you could try adding some extra throat hit to see if that helps. You could try getting some "flash e-liquid" http://www.ecigexpress.com/diy-flavoring-tobacco-flavor-c-16_24/flash-e-liquid-select-size-p-610 and adding a drop or two to your liquid, that or capsicum, to make the vape feel like it has a higer nic level. You could also try a hot cinnamon or peppermint flavor instead of the menthol.

I really hope you have been able to resolve some of the problems you've been having.

 

[nchamber68]

I have hypoglycemia, so I guess I won one in the genetic lottery. I would seriously involve your doc.

Not necessarily, be sure to keep an eye on your BG. I was hypoglycemic for 20 years (until I was 32) and then I became Type II...diet and exercise controlled so far, yay me.

I definitely agree with involving the doc, but even most of the endocrinologists are clueless about why a lot of things affect BG the way they do. Thirty-five years ago they were still telling diabetics to eat cereals like grape-nuts (one told my dad to do this), which is horribly high in carbs...they might as well have told them to sit down and eat a box of chocolate for breakfast. Ten years ago they were still pushing diet sodas, which are now linked to weight gain and contributing to the development/worsening of diabetes. (Luckily I'm allergic to nutrasweet so I never listened to that gem.)

(OT: How long you been a Marine? I was just gonna reply to your sig with 'do or die', but that can confuse people.)