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Batteries and Safety

Discussion in 'IkenVape' started by VaporMadness, Apr 11, 2010.

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  1. Vaporologist

    Vaporologist Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    May 26, 2010
    Epic Journey
    So I switched them and results were the same but more drastic this time. I measured them when the performance decreased significantly and the top one measured at 2.91V while the bottom one was at only 2.27V. :confused:

    This may or may not be important but I checked them every couple of hrs and there was only 0.01V difference between the two batts. The drastic difference in voltage between the two batteries only happened at the very end.
     
  2. Switched

    Switched ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Feb 18, 2010
    Dartmouth, NS Canada
    Have you marked them H and L for high internal resistance and L for low? Continue testing as you just did and keep notes.
     
  3. Vaporologist

    Vaporologist Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    May 26, 2010
    Epic Journey
    Well, after days of constant testing, results are consistent.

    I have two sets AW 16340 LiFePO4 batt marked A and B. On both sets one battery is market T for top and B for bottom. With both set, regardless if I put the T on top and B on the bottom or T on the bottom and B on top, the top battery ALWAYS drains more and/or faster. Sometimes there is as much as 0.65V difference between the two batteries towards the end when the performance drops of where the top battery is 3.05V and the bottom one is 2.40V.

    If this major voltage difference between the top and bottom battery happens only towards the end, what would happen if I reversed the battery position a couple of hrs before the nose dive? Is that safe/unsafe? Is there any potential danger in an attempt of doing that? Could that possibly prolong the life of the set?
     
  4. Switched

    Switched ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Feb 18, 2010
    Dartmouth, NS Canada
    As we discussed on the phone, the only way to measure internal resistance is to have a battery analyser, not something we need. Charge the batts separate and see how much difference there is in charging times for both.
     
  5. VaporMadness

    VaporMadness Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 26, 2010
    CA, USA
    That would be going too far for me too, never has crossed my mind to ask for one of those for christmas not even once :)
     
  6. Vaporologist

    Vaporologist Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    May 26, 2010
    Epic Journey
    I didn't think of doing that since I never thought there would be any difference from when they are charging together. Isn't each one being charged on their own even while charging at the same time? I'm not clear on what would be different, what to watch for and for what reason.

    Edit: The top battery always takes a few minutes longer to charge up since it was depleted more.
     
  7. Vaporologist

    Vaporologist Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    May 26, 2010
    Epic Journey
    Just another 5 months and you can have one. :)
     
  8. Switched

    Switched ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Feb 18, 2010
    Dartmouth, NS Canada
    If your charger has a light for each channel than you can tell, which one takes the longest. If you are saying that the top one takes longer because it is depleted more, then that makes sense. If it took less time = more internal resistance and less available space to charge. This will also equate to less performing time.

    Since they are both behaving the same, go ahead and switch 'em around. They are relatively new and shouldn't hurt anything, and should keep them balanced.

    Because the top one depletes more and hence works harder, the internal resistance will increase over time, causing the golf ball through the garden hose effect. But do maintain them in sets. Problems occur when folks mix old batteries with new ones = not a good thing. When one bites the dust, the set gets tossed.
     
  9. Vaporologist

    Vaporologist Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    May 26, 2010
    Epic Journey
    Balanced and even wear is what I'm after and switching them every time is what makes sense to me. If they are both not performing the same, they both become dangerous, right? And you know that battery safety is one subject I obsess about and want to clearly understand.

    The reason why I've been confused about this is because of what was previously suggested that the top one should always be on top and the bottom one always on the bottom. I just don't want to make a mistake in this department and will gladly be over cautious even if to extreme.
     
  10. VaporMadness

    VaporMadness Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 26, 2010
    CA, USA
    It seems like rotating them would serve to keep a pair more balanced to me too. But then again... i don't get how the top one drains faster either... but sho enough it does :blush:
     
  11. Iken

    Iken Unregistered Supplier ECF Veteran

    Jan 23, 2009
    PA,USA
    Oh yes, it's because the top battery is like the center of the current. It takes the most beating in electricity. The power just soars right through it. Switcher can put it much better terms than I can though :blush:
    Personally, I don't pay too much attention to the variations, but I do believe it is a good practice as Switch was saying to label and keep track of.
     
  12. Switched

    Switched ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Feb 18, 2010
    Dartmouth, NS Canada
    ... and I understand your confusion. I was also confuse and in all honesty I still am on many aspects, wrt batteries. I have spent a lot of time on battery U and rehash the articles etc... I found it often takes several reads to firmly grasp what is really going on.

    From the beginning I never paid much attention to left or right, top or bottom. <---- This info was posted more than once. Is it credible? I honestly can't say. The user is going to need to make up his/her own mind on the subject, and unfortunately I can no longer edit that post. I'll explain...

    Why do we use batteries in pairs? So that they deplete at the same rate. We often use both the words deplete and drain interchangeably. To me they have different meanings. I will often try and use the wording from the individual as to not confuse an explanation.

    A drained battery to me is a battery that has delivered its energy via work, and needs a break e.g a re-charge, just like us. A depleted battery on the other hand is a battery that through work has depleted the chemical energy contained within the cylinder and can no longer accept a charge, or is only capable of storing a minimal amount of energy. The picture of internal resistance at battery U shows this quite clearly.

    The latter becomes evident as time goes on:

    • internal resistance increases:
      • by the accumulation of spent deposits, the by product of chemical reaction to produce energy.
      • as time goes by the flow of electrons in the battery becomes much harder, which in turn - causes the battery to provide insufficient current to power the load, accelerating the build up of spent deposits in the cell
    • the battery not lasting as long;
      • because the energy storing capacity has been reduced; causing
      • the battery to work twice as hard to provide suffcient current to the load (think of fighting through the jungle with a machete) and in doing so, create more deposits at a faster rate
    • the re-charge time is diminished; and
      • it takes less time to fill a 3/4 full gas tank than it does a full one. 1/4 being the only usable storage left
    • the charging frequency has increased.
    Just another battery question - E-Cigarette Forumpost #17 (the bath tub analogy)

    I will not purposely lead someone astray. At the same time I am not infallible. Through these/our discussions it is indeed possible to decipher chaff from wheat and lay to rest some of the myths that circulate the forum.

    These discussions at times are difficult as they spread over several threads, and sub-forums. Based on what is written at Battery U and a working model provided by Vaporologist, I believe we can presume that:

    • the top battery since it drains faster, has provided more work. Since it has:
      • it's life expectancy will be diminished because;
        • the rate of chemical deposits occured through work increases proportionately; and
        • this increase in deposits increases the resistance of current to flow (stress), further accelerating cholesterol build up
      • as internal resistance increases, storing capacity of the cell has decreased proportionately
    • because the internal resistance of the top battery increased, the flow of current of the bottom battery is not efficient (fighting through the jungle, pushing a golf ball through a garden hose). This results in:
      • stressing the bottom battery (has to work harder);
      • increasing the internal resistance of the battery; and
      • accelerating the accumulation of deposits
    • because the aforementioned is taken place, and the load demand is constant, insufficient flow to the load will cause the top battery to stress further, once again compounding the problem. It is like a dog chasing it's tail. There is a better explanation that I could offer, but it is too complex for most to comprehend.
    In conclusion I believe we can safely presume that based on the assumptions from interpreted text, it would be beneficial to rotate our batteries, rather than using them in the same position all the time. Why? Because I honestly believe it makes more sense.

    Disclaimer: These are my interpretations of what I deem is occuring based on what I have learned from Battery U. Discussion on the finer points is always welcome, we all benefit from them. The latter causes us to look a little more closely into the subject. It is also my further belief that everyone should endeavour to read and comprehend the source, and openly discuss the finer points here, so we can all learn from the text.
     
  13. Iken

    Iken Unregistered Supplier ECF Veteran

    Jan 23, 2009
    PA,USA
    Ahh Now thats the light I was talking about!. Just excellent Switch. It really does make sense now. If it is what it is, speaking. So by the studies and theories it would make sense to rotate the batteries. Originally thinking inserting 1 and then 2, next cycle 2 then 1, but by the theory that would degrade both batteries faster, right? So if we look at it like a vehicle's tires. Where the front tires take the most damage than the rears. We would need the batteries to wear down just as evenly. OR if we were to maintain the same configuration of 1 and 2 in the same set up repeatedly while monitoring #1. We can wait till that one becomes null then slide number 2 into #1's position as permanent till the overall life is diminished and replace number 2 with a fresh one. Do you think that would make sense based on your studies?

    Disclaimer for our silent readers: This is purely discussion. Our intent is not to be misleading as solid facts, as we are studying ourselves. :D
     
  14. Vaporologist

    Vaporologist Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    May 26, 2010
    Epic Journey
    Thanks for painting such a great picture, Switched. We are definitely on the same page! Rotating batts has made sense to me all along and I feel safer knowing that they will both deplete evenly by doing so.

    I think I like the idea of rotating the top and the bottom battery after every charge better. Less room for user error due to potential lack of proper monitoring. I don't like the idea of one battery always being depleted more than the other. Just like with tires, I prefer to rotate them every 3K miles and replace all four when necessary.
     
  15. Switched

    Switched ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Feb 18, 2010
    Dartmouth, NS Canada
    Isaac,

    I like the tire analogy/metaphor, but I am not sure where you went/are going with the remainder. You do want to wear your tires or batteries evenly. Rotating your tires extends their life and reduces premature wear, and I now believe the same for batteries. IMHO the previous posted and repeated analogy was flawed, and I welcome all further discussion wrt this and thirst for more insight into the subject.
     
  16. KonaNeil

    KonaNeil Super Member ECF Veteran

    Jul 29, 2009
    Big Island, Hawaii
    I've been rotating top and bottom batteries within matched pairs as described above for the last seven months. They appear to be wearing evenly as expected.

    I am though losing interest in using pairs now that we have pretty darn good low impedance atomizers. Maybe its just me but if I'm going to use pairs, for safety sake, they're going to visit the meter before every use and I'm getting tired of the extra work.
     
  17. Switched

    Switched ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Feb 18, 2010
    Dartmouth, NS Canada
    Vap,

    U R Welcome. Yup! that's what I draw from it.
     
  18. Vaporologist

    Vaporologist Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    May 26, 2010
    Epic Journey
    Happy Vaping!
     
  19. Iken

    Iken Unregistered Supplier ECF Veteran

    Jan 23, 2009
    PA,USA
    Hey Kona,
    Thanks for the input :)
    May I ask how many pairs you went through in the course 7 months using this method?
     
  20. Iken

    Iken Unregistered Supplier ECF Veteran

    Jan 23, 2009
    PA,USA
    I was thinking along the lines, if battery #1 is losing it's hold faster than #2 by being in it's position. Than being constantly rotated, yes we'll be breaking them down evenly, but wouldn't that destroy both batteries with use rather than, letting physics destroy the first one by keeping it in his designated spot then after the cells are dried, sending #2 to it's fate in #1's postion while replacing the gap with a fresh battery...Ugh the more I think of it, yes for in even vape it would be wise to have the pair in constant rotation. I was just trying to look at it from a conservative's point of view.
     

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