Batteries and Safety

[Switched]

Well, if you are wondering what the project was, here is the explanation and final results.

The subject: One AW 16340 3.7V IMR High Drain battery

The objective: Put it through the worst vaping abuse that my body could physically take, in order to see how the battery behaves from the beginning to the end.

Using it in my Chameleon with the LR801 2.0 ohm atty I chain-vaped until the unit was not producing almost any vapor at all. In fact, for the last 2 minutes of the test, the atty barely sizzled. For the first 4 hrs I took the battery out every 30 minutes and measure the voltage with my DMM. Following the first 4 hrs I felt the need to check the battery twice in the last 20 minutes since the vapor production decreased dramatically and rapidly. Here is what took place (11:15 am is the 0:00 starting point):

HRS ... VOLTS
0:00 ..... 4.21
0:30 ..... 4.13
1:00 ..... 4.07
1:30 ..... 4.00
2:00 ..... 3.91
2:30 ..... 3.82
3:00 ..... 3.71
3:30 ..... 3.63
4:00 ..... 3.51
--------------
4:15 ..... 3.25
4:20 ..... 2.63

After abusing this battery for about 3 hrs, the vapor production started to decrease slightly and the TH was a lot less noticeable. The vapor production started trailing off dramatically after almost 4 hrs when the battery's charge was slightly above 3.5V. I really should have stopped the test after 4 hrs and 15 min because the vapor was barely existent at 3.25V and vaping at this point was just a plain turture. I persisted in order complete the test and meet the objective.

I would safely suggest that there is at least about a 15 minute period where the battery is warning us that it needs to be charged. There will be NO doubt.

Here is something interesting which I don't understand: About 1 hour has passed since the completion of this test and the battery has been resting. I just checked the battery one more time and it's showing to be at 3.05V after it was discharged and measured at 2.63V. Hmmm.

I will perform the same test using the same battery paired with a 1.5 ohm 801 atty tomorrow and report my findings.

Edit: I always get between 5-6 hrs out of this battery before it needs to be charged under "normal" circumstance. As stated above, today's goal was to see how it performs when abused since I was in a controlled environment.

It's called chemistry.

Thanks for the test and taking one for the team, very useful information.

 

[Vaporologist]

My pleasure. You know I did this just for you, right?

What about chemistry?

 

[Switched]

My pleasure. You know I did this just for you, right?

What about chemistry?

battery chemistry = bold text in the quote. The battery was never depleted and was allowed to rest. After it worked for period X what remains is the residual voltage of the cell, which will run out eventually (over great amount of time).

 

[VaporMadness]

Fun numbers Vman! What nic level were you vaping

HRS ... VOLTS
0:00 ..... 4.21
0:30 ..... 4.13
1:00 ..... 4.07
1:30 ..... 4.00
2:00 ..... 3.91
2:30 ..... 3.82
3:00 ..... 3.71
3:30 ..... 3.63
4:00 ..... 3.51
--------------
4:15 ..... 3.25
4:20 ..... 2.63

I think you're controlled experiment is kind of what I did "in the wild" when i ended up with the 2.42 reading. So... it sure does fall off the cliff fast when it gets below 3.5. Nice gentle slope down for 4 hours then a total nose dive.

Here is something interesting which I don't understand: About 1 hour has passed since the completion of this test and the battery has been resting. I just checked the battery one more time and it's showing to be at 3.05V after it was discharged and measured at 2.63V. Hmmm.

Ah... it recovered quite a bit. I don't have a great understanding of battery chemistry either. The chemical glop in there does that somehow

 

[Vaporologist]

Fun numbers Vman! What nic level were you vaping

I'm sorry, I don't understand your question since my head still hurts, lol. J/K
I started out with my normal 24mg not really thinking about. Lights came on after about an hour and I diluted it to about 12-14 mg with PG. I usually consume about 4-6 ml per day yet I used almost 2 ml during this 4hr 20 min marathon. Isaac's LR801 took it like a champ!

I think you're controlled experiment is kind of what I did "in the wild" when i ended up with the 2.42 reading. So... it sure does fall off the cliff fast when it gets below 3.5. Nice gentle slope down for 4 hours then a total nose dive.

Yea but that's what I like about it. And usually it's about 5-6 hrs before the nose dive.

I've been using this battery for over 6 weeks on and off and I never knew exactly what's happening with it while I'm using it. All I knew for sure is what Isaac told me initially, that I will not notice any performance decrease until it's time to charge it. So, I never tested it until after using it for about 5-6 hrs when vapor production would start decreasing where it usually tested in a mid to low 3V range. I actually thought that the battery stays at 4.2V until the very end. I love that the performance stays the same from the time it comes off the charger until it drops to about or slightly below 3.7V. And after someone uses it a couple times they can easily tell where they'r at. And really, at 3.5V you are not getting what you want wrt vapor production and TH. That's why I find and agree that it's nearly impossible to discharge LiMN battery to the unsafe zone if paying attention while vaping, just as you experienced.

Ah... it recovered quite a bit. I don't have a great understanding of battery chemistry either. The chemical glop in there does that somehow

Me, too. Maybe some day.

 

[Vaporologist]

Here are the results from today's test using an LR801 1.5 ohm atty compared to yesterday's results using the 2.0 atty. I tried to keep my vaping style (abuse) the same during both test but obviously there may have been slight inconsistencies. Even though the second test ended up being shorter, I used almost the same amount of liquid during both tests.

HRS ... 2.0 ohm ... 1.5 ohm
0:00 ..... 4.21 ..... 4.22V
0:30 ..... 4.13 ..... 4.08
1:00 ..... 4.07 ..... 3.96
1:30 ..... 4.00 ..... 3.85
2:00 ..... 3.91 ..... 3.73
2:30 ..... 3.82 ..... 3.65
3:00 ..... 3.71 ..... 3.56
3:30 ..... 3.63 ..... 3.36
3:33 ...... N/A ..... 3.14
3:35 ...... N/A ..... 2.80
4:00 ..... 3.51
--------------
4:15 ..... 3.25
4:20 ..... 2.63

The vapor production decreased noticeably around 3.5V during both tests. This is the point where I believe most people will want to change their batteries since TH and vapor production are no longer adequate. I feel very safe using these batts.

 

[Switched]

Thanks Vlad, pretty much where I expected the results. 3-3.5Hrs at LR

 

[VaporMadness]

More fun numbers!

Here are the results from today's test using an LR801 1.5 ohm atty compared to yesterday's results using the 2.0 atty.

So... how do you like 1.5 vs 2.0, purely in terms of the vaping experience w/o regard for battery runtime?

HRS ... 2.0 ohm ... 1.5 ohm
3:30 ..... 3.63 ..... 3.36
3:33 ...... N/A ..... 3.14
3:35 ...... N/A ..... 2.80

And there's the nosedive!

I feel very safe using these batts.

Me2

 

[Vaporologist]

Thanks Vlad, pretty much where I expected the results. 3-3.5Hrs at LR

I agree, same here. I really wanted to see if there would possibly be an accelerated or a quicker "nose dive"(ty VM) and a shorter warning period. That doesn't seem to be the case probably because the batteries discharge rate is so much higher than what the 1.5 atty requires even when abused.

 

[Vaporologist]

So... how do you like 1.5 vs 2.0, purely in terms of the vaping experience w/o regard for battery runtime?

They both have their place. The 2.0 is definitely the sweet spot. It provides beautiful flavor, fantastic TH, and great amount of vapor. Even when I super chain vaped with it yesterday for over 4 hrs, it never got too hot and never gave me the burnt taste. It is definitely an all-day-pleasure-vaping kind of an atty.

The advantage of the 1.5 LR 801 atty is its performance when the battery start depleting and the voltage falls to or below 3.7V. It kicks better due to its lower resistance. I also like using it during those times when I need to feel a stronger punch.

And there's the nosedive!

Yea, I love that! To me, it's almost as good as my Ego battery starting to blink 30 times.

Now I'm itching to try this with my AW 16340 750 mah Li Ion battery. I'm curious how they compare.

 

[Iken]

Hey guys! Now this is a great conversation! Please excuse my absence fellas.I had to go in to the ER twice yesterday. Not holding up so well, cause is unknown but I have a suspicion of whats happening to me. The verdict is Heart palpitations. Anyway before I had to go back last night, I was on the phone with Vman (GREAT GUY!) and we were talking about this subject. I told him I'd get more details from Andrew from AW on IMR vs Lifep04 interms of safety. Sooooo....

The greatest danger associated with lithium cobalt cells is venting with flames ( aka explosion ). The flame is fueled by the oxygen produced during the charging / discharging process. Safe chemistry cells like IMR and LiFePO4 do not produce oxygen during charging / discharging so they both do not vent with flames if something bad happens. However, like most other type of batteries. Internal gas / pressure built up may cause them to burst also.

My A123 exploded - RC Groups

Exploding A123 cell


Like all devices packing energy. I 'll consider the higher energy one be more dangerous ( between IMR and LiFePO4 ). For the same size:

IMR R123 has 3.7 x 0.55 = 2.03Wh of energy

LiFePO4 R123 has 3.2 x 0.5 = 1.6Wh of energy
-Andrew AW batteries

 

[Vaporologist]

Hey Isaac,

Great to see that you are doing a little better. Hope everything turns out OK.

Just to make sure that there is no misunderstanding, AW LiFePO4 batt is safer than the AW IMR in 16340 size, right?

 

[Electricnut]

Wishing you getting all better real fast.

 

[VaporMadness]

The verdict is Heart palpitations.

Hmmm... maybe ease up on the nicotine? Hope your feeling better soon.

 

[WitchWay]

OMG Isaac I hope you are feeling better. Please take care of yourself!! And have Val keep us posted on how you are doing if you can't come on yourself.

*hugs* and *hugs* to Val since she has to take care of you

 

[Switched]

Hmmm... maybe ease up on the nicotine? Hope your feeling better soon.

Wishing you getting all better real fast.

What VM said! ... and don't pay any attention to EN's signature. Take care man.

 

[Vaporologist]

Yea, I advised him to ignore "keep on vaping!" for a few days

 

[Iken]

Lol Thanks guys!
I have been doing alot better, but still very hard to vape or do much for that matter. Down to 2-6mg but still receiving the same lightheaded, heart beating side effects, just no where near as harsh as before. Spent most of the day sleeping in the cool a/c. Almost anything exciting makes me stagger, but we're getting back on track. The docs are almost certain that it's nicotine poisoning. If anyone is able to reverse engineer e-liquid to deduce the amount of nic is in this newly purchased liquid. Please let me know.

The lovely Mrs has been packing mostly all of the orders, even with her full-time job she still came home early to pack them for me the past few days. What a gal!

We were expecting our battery shipment to come in today, but to no avail. Thanks to you guys the Imr AW High drains are included with the order as well as more AW Lifep04 3.0V, Aw Imr 3.7V 16340 and Protected Li-ion 16340. Also LR 901 and the 801 Lr Shorti's will be available through a massive newsletter when our batteries come in, which Should be tomorrow 7/17/2010. The Shorti's were put through some tough love and outlasted it's difficult trials and will definitely be a fan favorite for 3.7v + 5v alike. This one is a Main Stay at IkenVape.

Slb decided to opt for more testing on our 2.0 510's. The details are a little unclear about this situation. This gives us an opening to experiment a bit.There is a shipment that is soon going to be in transit containing The Joye side of 510 2.0Ω NOT 1.5Ω I'm going to attempt to sample a Joye-302 2.0Ω style and maybe even a Shorti type!, if they will be as willing to comply as my favorite company Sailebao.

LOL @ E-nuts signature! Thank you again guys!
Sincerely,
Isaac

 

[Switched]

*SNIP

If anyone is able to reverse engineer e-liquid to deduce the amount of nic is in this newly purchased liquid. Please let me know.

??? What U talking about Willis??? ... and please expand on nic poisoning.

 

[aspen]

Being SICK sucks. Boy ol boy Isaac hope you rebound back here real soon. At least the humor is still active with you ( Enuts sig) and Thank goodness for the woman, hey.
take it easy