Being Reasonable as a Community

[machiabelly]

Sorry in advance for the length of this, but it's something I've become pretty frustrated with over the three or four months since I began vaping.

So, I recently finished a new(ish) video blog by a prominent youtube reviewer in which he talks, at one point, about how the FDA wants nothing more than to take our ability to vape away from us. I think that this is a relatively common idea among the vaping community and I wanted to take this opportunity to respond to it because I think it makes us sound a bit ignorant as a community.

I'll just start off by letting you know that I am in no way affiliated with the FDA, however, not to recognize its importance as a regulatory agency is just plain stupid.

First off, we need to understand that the FDA is the reason that we can walk into a grocery store to buy our food, and be relatively confident that the food we buy is not going to kill us (at least not quickly). Their testing and labeling allows us to make informed decisions about what we put into our bodies, at least to the best of their abilities. Hell, they're the reason we know that cigarettes are bad for us and helped us make the decision to switch to vaping. I would urge anyone who genuinely doesn't trust the FDA to grow their own food and create their own medicines and see how they do.

Second, it is worth knowing where the FDA itself actually stands on the issue. Most of this information can be found here. I think most of you will agree that it sounds pretty reasonable.

Another thing to consider, now, is that WE DO NOT KNOW ENOUGH AT THIS POINT TO MAKE A WELL-INFORMED DECISION ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT ELECTRONIC CIGARETTES ARE BAD FOR US. Common sense tells us that it probably is, but as any good scientist will tell you, science involves a method designed not to be influenced by anything outside of what is observed. There are many studies that I have seen and many of them are conflicting and some are incoherent.

As it stands now, our decisions about what liquids to put in our vaporizers is pretty much based on trust. We rely on vendors to have the decency to tell us what is in the juices they sell us, and simply have to hope that they aren't lying or do not use chemicals that are known to be harmful.

What I am saying here, is that I want the FDA to run the necessary (fully conclusive) tests so that I can make an informed decision about whether I should continue to use my PVs. I am not saying that this process will go the way we think it should or that the system is perfect, but I think we need to be more willing to trust that this institution--as we trust our vendors--is not just out to take something nice away from us, but really does want to give us the ability to be as informed as possible in the choices we make.

I'm sure that I'll get some flack for this post but I just wanted to offer my two cents and am totally open to criticism. I hope that if someone knows me to be wrong about something that I've said here, they will provide evidence to the contrary and I will become more knowledgable as a result as that is an important part of what it means to be reasonable.

Thanks to whoever read this and I hope it didn't piss anyone off.

*EDIT* Just want to clear a couple of things up:

1. I did not intend to make a political statement so please stop commenting with polarizing political remarks. This has nothing to do with the economic regulation or Obamacare.

2. If you wish to be productive in your comments, please provide links to EVIDENCE. If you want to prove someone wrong, you have to actually give proof.

**Final Edit**

I'm going to stop replying to comments now as this did not turn in to the productive conversation that I'd hoped it would and now I'm getting some personal attacks. I still think its worth thinking through whether regulation in this situation is an entirely bad thing and how to reason with this agency rather than just being angry about the prospect. In the future, I'll just keep these thoughts to myself.

 

[Thrasher]

Thanks to whoever read this and I hope it didn't piss anyone off.

not one to criticize myself usually, and I do think some sort of regulation/checking wold be ok.

But I will never fully trust the FDA for the concerns or safety of my welfare.

tobacco is under FDA control, yet they allow the 100's of chemicals to be added with no disclosure to the public.

Medications which cause more problems then they solve hit the shelf every day, yet the FDA is ok with that.

additives to our food like sweeteners, dyes, man made flavorings, deadly preservatives, are also ok with the FDA, many of which are now being properly tested by outside sources and are starting to be shown to be the root of many health problems.

several newer studies show art sweeteners may actually be contributing to the diabetes epidemic and accelerating tooth decay. yet the FDA approves more all the time

like that canned lemonade? probably contains wood rosin, according to the FDA it's not completely safe, it's less irritating to the intestines then the other choices.

like those cinni buns? or the sprinkle on cheese packs from pizza hut? mostly colored with zinc oxide/ titanium dioxide to make them more white. while not directly a problem why do you need a metal compound in my cheese?
50 something percent is ok with them to allow a fastfood place to call it real beaf? really?

and Im supposed to trust them with my health and believe they have the public interests at heart? not a chance.................

 

[Orobas]

FDA okays things like pink slime, and feeds us drugs that make us suicidal and/or have deformed babies because they nod stupidly at any contrived bullcrap big pharma will feed them, but they want to regulate my vaping.

nope.png

They need to fix themselves before they try to fix me.

 

[Topwater Elvis]

I hope you're kidding.
Reliable info regarding ecigs/vaping ----> Learn About Electronic Cigarettes

 

[mare ze dotes]

I liked pink slime. Had to bake/fry it down a bit. but good! For 3$ a pound . Some of us have to do with what we get.

 

[machiabelly]

Maybe...But they have no power to regulate whether toxic substances are used in eliquids and *there is still no consensus in the scientific community in regards to the safety concerns surrounding vaping.* I'm just saying that it's worth asking why that is before we just take the side that is most convenient for us.

EDIT: I was replying to Topwater Elvis here

 

[Ref Minor]

Like those cinni buns? or the sprinkle on cheese packs from pizza hut? mostly colored with zinc oxide/ titanium dioxide to make them more white. while not directly a problem why do you need a metal compound in my cheese?
.

I am guessing you don't have for example any sodium chloride on your fries with your blanket opposition to metal compounds in your diet. I am guessing this is a recent thing for you, don't bother asking for any Christmas presents, your life expectancy is extremely short.

 

[klynnn]

You can't just ban everything these days when you don't have long term results. Our gov has been regulating the country to death and the economy proves it.

 

[Lessifer]

Here's my personal story. I didn't really give the FDA much thought before I started vaping, I mean I know they check food and approve new medications. I also know that there are often new medications that are FDA approved all the time that end up getting discontinued or recalled or caught up in litigation because they start having adverse effects. Oh well, I pay attention to what I eat and medicate with, and any medication I take is because the risk of something bad happening is less than dealing with whatever the medication is for.

Jump ahead, I start vaping, and I want to learn about how safe it is. I read the FDA study. It is the worst piece of scientific research I have ever read. I learn a little more about the FDA.

I believe some regulation will be good for this industry, unfortunately I don't have a clear idea of how that will work since most small juice suppliers don't have the funds to perform all of the required testing for each new flavor of juice they want to release.

I believe the idea behind the FDA and regulation is good, but like many things, the execution is a completely different story.

 

[machiabelly]

You can't just ban everything these days when you don't have long term results. Our gov has been regulating the country to death and the economy proves it.

Regulation of the economy has NOTHING to do with the safety of vaping. Also, the FDA has proposed to regulate, not ban, the sale of electronic cigarettes.

 

[machiabelly]

Here's my personal story. I didn't really give the FDA much thought before I started vaping, I mean I know they check food and approve new medications. I also know that there are often new medications that are FDA approved all the time that end up getting discontinued or recalled or caught up in litigation because they start having adverse effects. Oh well, I pay attention to what I eat and medicate with, and any medication I take is because the risk of something bad happening is less than dealing with whatever the medication is for.

Jump ahead, I start vaping, and I want to learn about how safe it is. I read the FDA study. It is the worst piece of scientific research I have ever read. I learn a little more about the FDA.

I believe some regulation will be good for this industry, unfortunately I don't have a clear idea of how that will work since most small juice suppliers don't have the funds to perform all of the required testing for each new flavor of juice they want to release.

I believe the idea behind the FDA and regulation is good, but like many things, the execution is a completely different story.

Please link to the study that you are referring to because I have not heard of the FDA conducting any such study.

 

[Nermal]

First, I think you've presented us with a false dilemma. I have yet to see any argument for abolishing FDA. Taken on balance, they have done more good than bad. On the other hand, there is no reason to believe they are capable of coming up with anything acceptable in the regulation of juices. They could well decide that nicotine is harmful, and should be banned or regulated out of existence without any consideration of the reduction in the use of smoking tobacco. Also note that the hazards of smoking are well documented. There is no point is arguing that we needed FDA or any other agency to tell us that smoking is harmful. When I started smoking in the '50s, cigarettes were variously referred to as cancer sticks and coffin nails. Neither FDA nor Surgeon General can take credit for the knowledge that led to those nicknames.

Second, you seem to be of the impression that FDA is involved in extensive testing of food, drugs, and labeling. NO. They require extensive testing, and it is often done by the drug makers themselves. It isn't quite the same thing.

First off, we need to understand that the FDA is the reason that we can walk into a grocery store to buy our food, and be relatively confident that the food we buy is not going to kill us (at least not quickly). Their testing and labeling allows us to make informed decisions about what we put into our bodies, at least to the best of their abilities. Hell, they're the reason we know that cigarettes are bad for us and helped us make the decision to switch to vaping. I would urge anyone who genuinely doesn't trust the FDA to grow their own food and create their own medicines and see how they do.

<snip>



What I am saying here, is that I want the FDA to run the necessary (fully conclusive) tests so that I can make an informed decision about whether I should continue to use my PVs. . . .

 

[Thrasher]

I am guessing you don't have for example any sodium chloride on your fries with your blanket opposition to metal compounds in your diet. I am guessing this is a recent thing for you, don't bother asking for any Christmas presents, your life expectancy is extremely short.

personally I dont eat any fast food. and I expect anything I eat to come with ingredients listed. mock me all you can. im almost 50 years old and I can run circles around most 20 year olds because I have always worried about what I put in my body, even if that means missing out on somethings. I cant avoid everything but i do what i can.

I like hotdogs, I pay 6 bucks a pack because they are certified nitrate free beef. if more people actually cared about the crap they eat maybe we wouldn't be the sickest nation on the planet.

every year there is some scare about led in childrens toys, did you know this is only for children? the FDA has no guidelines for adult exposure so the products arent tested.

like that artificial flavor in your Hershey's chocolate bar? i dont, so other brands get my money.


you really want to eat this stuff?
http://www.naturalnews.com/041655_Chicken_McNuggets_strange_fibers_microscope_images.html

 

[C-Hang]

Nicely said Machiabelly.

 

[bubbalou32]

The FDA has had years to consider their position on this subject - E-cigs didn't just appear on the market yesterday. The problem is the pressure from Big Phama (how 'bout those patches, gum & pills that don't work) and Big Tobacco (we're losing market share because smoking batteries is safer). They can't take a stand that would satisfy all parties. If you could take politics and money out of the picture, there wouldn't be a fight.

No matter what the risk vaping introduces, it can't be any more dangerous than smoking and I feel is an acceptable level of risk compared to continuing to smoke. But the vaping community is being treated like the smoking community by taking away personal rights. The anti-tobacco lobby is providing false & misleading statistics to sway the general public into believing that vaping is worse than smoking. Remember the promise of Obama care?

 

[Butters78]

I make my own juice tyvm.

I don't need a government agency telling me what is good and not good for me. I'm an adult and can make my own decisions.

The FDA approves many things which side effects include suicidal thoughts, violence, and death. Anything they say doesn't hold much water to me.

 

[EvilZoe]

Please link to the study that you are referring to because I have not heard of the FDA conducting any such study.

Here's link with all the information from all sources. CASAA - The Consumer Advocates for Smoke-free Alternatives Association

THAT is what you need to read before making any wishes that the FDA will regulate vaping. They collect all reports and studies from everywhere and also conduct studies of their own. The site is extremely comprehensive. The good, the bad, and the ugly....all in one place.

Oh, and many of us DO know exactly what we're vaping as we make the juice ourselves and buy from the same reputable sources as those who make smoking cessation products and quality foods, etc.

 

[Lessifer]

Please link to the study that you are referring to because I have not heard of the FDA conducting any such study.

Here you go: http://www.fda.gov/downloads/drugs/scienceresearch/ucm173250.pdf

it's on the CASAA site too, along with other studies by both people for and against e-cigs.

Don't get me wrong, I'd rather believe that the FDA is there to protect me. Unfortunately, the more I've been paying attention, the more I see how broken the system truly is.

 

[crxess]

I will not, at this time, bust on the Ops post. I will simply say this.

To often in a effort to do what is perceived as a good thing for everyone. People will insist on putting the cart before the horse.

All to often the horse is drug to an ugly death as a result.

To many already want to Regulate Vaping out of existence before any studies, positive or negative in result have even been conducted.
Opening that door could result in a stampede which may not be able to be stopped.

*sorry, one punch - The FDA was made in 1906 during the Progressive Era under President Theodore Roosevelt. I doubt any of us know how things could or could not be without the FDA or better judgement within the FDA

 

[Penn]

2. If you wish to be productive in your comments, please provide links to EVIDENCE. If you want to prove someone wrong, you have to actually give proof.

Your links?

I'll just start off by letting you know that I am in no way affiliated with the FDA, however, not to recognize its importance as a regulatory agency is just plain stupid.

First off, we need to understand that the FDA is the reason that we can walk into a grocery store to buy our food, and be relatively confident that the food we buy is not going to kill us (at least not quickly).

The FDA has allowed many products that are incredibly horrible when it comes to secondary effects. I'll go with my usual examples of Olestra and Chantix. Get your own links.

Their testing and labeling allows us to make informed decisions about what we put into our bodies, at least to the best of their abilities.

The FDA doesn't do testing nor labeling. Others groups do the testing and send that to the FDA. Usually two sides are represented and the FDA chooses what to believe. Many times what they go with is the one with flawed reporting.

They also don't do labeling. The business submits labels and the FDA accepts or rejects. Usually they allow the industry to choose the standards however my concern is vaping may be one they choose the regulations, like smoking.

I would urge anyone who genuinely doesn't trust the FDA to grow their own food and create their own medicines and see how they do.

Due to overzealous manipulation of the interstate commerce clause this isn't feasible. However many people I know do grow what they can and raise a few animals a year. What they get is usually smaller but much better in taste and if what I hear is true, that means better in nutrients also. Getting more into that would stray from the topic but a shortened version is the FDA is corrupt.

Second, it is worth knowing where the FDA itself actually stands on the issue. Most of this information can be found here. I think most of you will agree that it sounds pretty reasonable.

I won't disagree however where they truly stand as opposed to what they claim is foggy. I have heard from sources I trust they aren't as nefarious as some here believe.

Another thing to consider, now, is that WE DO NOT KNOW ENOUGH AT THIS POINT TO MAKE A WELL-INFORMED DECISION ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT ELECTRONIC CIGARETTES ARE BAD FOR US. Common sense tells us that it probably is, but as any good scientist will tell you, science involves a method designed not to be influenced by anything outside of what is observed. There are many studies that I have seen and many of them are conflicting and some are incoherent.

Where this gets convoluted it people who are against vaping compare it to not using tobacco products and people for it both compare it to smoking (which is logical) and some even try to say it is harmless. True, we don't actually know it is harmless but there has yet to be a single study I have read that even remotely indicates it is either as bad as or worse than smoking. I have seen people claim the studies show it but it is important to note the people claiming that have no background in science.

As it stands now, our decisions about what liquids to put in our vaporizers is pretty much based on trust. We rely on vendors to have the decency to tell us what is in the juices they sell us, and simply have to hope that they aren't lying or do not use chemicals that are known to be harmful.

Double edged sword here. I agree knowing what is in my vape and weather it is particularly harmful would be nice. However, the truth is when the government gets bureaucratic claws into anything, over regulation follows. I could go with a long analysis of the EPA's activities but that would stray too far from the point.

What I am saying here, is that I want the FDA to run the necessary (fully conclusive) tests so that I can make an informed decision about whether I should continue to use my PVs. I am not saying that this process will go the way we think it should or that the system is perfect, but I think we need to be more willing to trust that this institution--as we trust our vendors--is not just out to take something nice away from us, but really does want to give us the ability to be as informed as possible in the choices we make.

Again, they do not do tests. Another government bureaucracy can not be blindly trusted.

I'm sure that I'll get some flack for this post but I just wanted to offer my two cents and am totally open to criticism. I hope that if someone knows me to be wrong about something that I've said here, they will provide evidence to the contrary and I will become more knowledgable as a result as that is an important part of what it means to be reasonable.

Mods have been increasingly heavy handed so they may keep it in check but I do agree some people here are exactly what they claim to hate - Antz. They are just on the opposite side but same mentality and sometimes (such as when talking about big tobacco) they are even on the same side.