Beta Carboline MAOIs - towards a more effective e-liquid

[kardenm]

Don't we need some sort of clamps and metal rods that go into special lab tables for this? My brother (chem student) suggested this though as an alternative to the icing bags. I was playing with the idea of getting into distilling some of my own flavorings, so maybe I should look at getting one of these tables. Isn't there some sort of alternative stand that I can use with a normal table though? I don't have a lot of ideas where is good to shop for this stuff, so would appreciate more suggestions before I go searching.

Yes. A ring stand or other types of stands and clamps can be used. Don't need a special table. But, as DVap said, (a seperatory funnel) can be dangerous and if you don't know how to use one then it can be more trouble than it's worth even without the hazard factor. (also very easy to break)

 

[deusXmchna]

Thanks for the input DVap! Stabilizer in the mineral oil I found is "tocopherols" which I gather is vitamine E. I did find some packaged specifically for enemas (lol) which is "100%" (no stabilizers) but it is more expensive. May search for some unscented baby oil.

Still having trouble finding citric acid or even pure ascorbic acid.

Humco makes citric acid. Dunno about its grade. Dunno how important grade is to this experiment.
Pharmacies can order anything Humco makes. If you've tried to get citric acid from a pharmacist already, and have gotten flack from him, it may be because he doesn't want to pull out the supplier catalogs or call the wholesaler. Things usually go smoother if you've got the info on exactly what you want, how much you want, and who makes it.

 

[aprioristic]

1. The extra carbonate powder is to compensate for water content of the tobacco. But as saturated carbonate is pH 11 and only pH 9 is required, this can perhaps be omitted.

...

6. Parafins, n-alkanes. See Mineral oil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Light mineral oil is the one to go for.

Thanks, this is helpful. I will mention that one place I found lists SC's pH as 11.6

My brother was explaining a bit about how pKa works, but I don't get it. He said if I am already handling 100mg nic, that lye isn't as dangerous and suggested that we could use that. When we get together this weekend maybe we will do a kitchen batch with SC as well as some more serious stuff in his lab. When I say "we", I mean that I am going to let him handle the dirty work, because I do understand the need for training involved here and know I have a lot to learn.

I see the point about mineral oil. I know that there are all sorts of different types of fatty acids in stuff like olive oil, so I will just forget it. I guess it really isn't important but I just like to see the 2D diagrams of things. I see now the basic alkane formula C n H 2n+2 then I guess what is classed as "light mineral oil" falls within a certain range and doesn't have a specific formula.

Yes. A ring stand or other types of stands and clamps can be used. Don't need a special table. But, as DVap said, (a seperatory funnel) can be dangerous and if you don't know how to use one then it can be more trouble than it's worth even without the hazard factor. (also very easy to break)

I want to say I heard a different word for that device, but maybe I am wrong. Anyhow, my brother suggested it simply as an alternative to using an icing bag or trying to draw off a bottom layer with a syringe through the top layer. I don't see why it would be super important to even cork the top if it is just being used short term as a fancy icing bag. It shouldn't take more than an hour to separate fully and there isn't gas given off from the alkaloids being shifted around here right?

I'm still wondering what sort of tobacco I should use for this. Are the particular flavors of a Latakia or Perique going to come through here? I couldn't find anything on variations in alkaloid levels throughout the different cultivars. At this point, I am thinking a pouch of American Spirit or some sort of decent pipe tobacco with a more generic flavor. What sort of texture and moisture am I looking for, as fine and as dry as possible or will that have lower levels of alkaloids?

 

[DVap]

Thanks for the input DVap! Stabilizer in the mineral oil I found is "tocopherols" which I gather is vitamine E. I did find some packaged specifically for enemas (lol) which is "100%" (no stabilizers) but it is more expensive. May search for some unscented baby oil.

Still having trouble finding citric acid or even pure ascorbic acid.

Of course all these things are available online so I may have to break down and order some.

Here are some interesting sites for chemical supplies (chemicals and equip.).

Common Sources of Chemicals Listed by The Society for Amateur Scientists

The Citizen Scientist

Readily Available Chemicals

Elemental Scientific, LLC

Just a note. Some of the chemical/chemical supply vendors who appear online will likely tell an individual wishing to make a purchase to go get stuffed. This is particularly true of the larger firms and specialty chemical suppliers. With smaller resellers and web-only based firms, the first and last question is more often, "you got money?", if the answer is "yes", they'll do business.

 

[DVap]

Thanks, this is helpful. I will mention that one place I found lists SC's pH as 11.6

Not looking anything up here, but that might refer to a saturated solution? pH is one of those things that is concentration dependent (among other things).

My brother was explaining a bit about how pKa works, but I don't get it. He said if I am already handling 100mg nic, that lye isn't as dangerous and suggested that we could use that. When we get together this weekend maybe we will do a kitchen batch with SC as well as some more serious stuff in his lab. When I say "we", I mean that I am going to let him handle the dirty work, because I do understand the need for training involved here and know I have a lot to learn.

I could argue with him a bit on the minutia of this one. Nicotine and sodium hydroxide are both dangerous in different ways. The sort of solution required here, if used, would need to be perhaps 0.01N, which is relatively tame (compared to 1N+), but I still wouldn't want any in my eyes. If you're asking about the hazards of lye/NaOH, you're not qualified to be messing around with the stuff. A lye burn (via leaving a more concentrated solution on the skin or leaving a very hygroscopic solid flake exposed to skin) will tend to corrode skin away, turning it into a greasy mess that will scoop right out from the underlying flesh.. leaving a very nasty pink/meaty gouge and subsequent scarring. Some of the more un-tasty safety slides I can recall... really put me off my lunch, dinner too. Assuming your brother has the background to manage the hazards, let him mess with it. Good call on deciding to defer.

I see the point about mineral oil. I know that there are all sorts of different types of fatty acids in stuff like olive oil, so I will just forget it. I guess it really isn't important but I just like to see the 2D diagrams of things. I see now the basic alkane formula C n H 2n+2 then I guess what is classed as "light mineral oil" falls within a certain range and doesn't have a specific formula.

Yep.. it's a range. Light mineral oil tends toward a lower average number of carbons in the backbone than a heavier oil. As the length of the carbon backbone increases, boiling point also increases, until you're eventually dealing with solid "waxes". I'm not a fan of vegetable oils due to their ability to react under alkaline conditions to form soap-like gunk.

I want to say I heard a different word for that device, but maybe I am wrong. Anyhow, my brother suggested it simply as an alternative to using an icing bag or trying to draw off a bottom layer with a syringe through the top layer. I don't see why it would be super important to even cork the top if it is just being used short term as a fancy icing bag. It shouldn't take more than an hour to separate fully and there isn't gas given off from the alkaloids being shifted around here right?

It's a separatory funnel, always has been, always will be. The assumption with a sep funnel is that gas evolution/pressure evolution WILL happen, even if it's not supposed to happen. This is why there are safety procedures a chemist will tend to follow religiously, even if they're probably not necessary for the present procedure.

I'm still wondering what sort of tobacco I should use for this. Are the particular flavors of a Latakia or Perique going to come through here? I couldn't find anything on variations in alkaloid levels throughout the different cultivars. At this point, I am thinking a pouch of American Spirit or some sort of decent pipe tobacco with a more generic flavor. What sort of texture and moisture am I looking for, as fine and as dry as possible or will that have lower levels of alkaloids?

I'm partial to American Spirit. A full isolation/purification will result in alkaloids and any "flavor" characteristics unique to the tobacco won't make it into the product. With less than pure product, the flavors unique to the tobacco would tend to be more likely to come through in the product.

 

[linzeljp]

Even in my worst extractions so far, no significant flavor has come through. The wastewater from the first round, though, stinks to high heaven... I imagine most of the aromatics get thrown out here. If I were to pretend to be concerned about which tobacco I was purchasing, I'd aim for minimum of additives vice particular flavor qualities, and second the American Spirit recommendation.

On the use of vegetable oils, my olive oil extractions form a very thin fatty layer on separation. I ditch it with the rest of the waste oil.

 

[deusXmchna]

re:tobacco

Golden Harvest makes an additive-free than can be gotten for less than $10/6oz. or $12+/12oz. Prices sometimes fluctuate, I dunno who is cheapest right now. Since it's a "dual use" pipe tobacco, it's not taxed, and can be mail ordered over state lines, but youve gotta figure in shipping cost.

AS is likely better, but you might want to make your mistakes on cheap stuff, and use the good stuff when you've got your procedure down pat. Nothings sucks more than blowing your expensive.. "ingredients"

 

[DVap]

re:tobacco

Golden Harvest makes an additive-free than can be gotten for less than $10/6oz. or $12+/12oz. Prices sometimes fluctuate, I dunno who is cheapest right now. Since it's a "dual use" pipe tobacco, it's not taxed, and can be mail ordered over state lines, but youve gotta figure in shipping cost.

AS is likely better, but you might want to make your mistakes on cheap stuff, and use the good stuff when you've got your procedure down pat. Nothings sucks more than blowing your expensive.. "ingredients"

Just wondering.. are these "dual use" tobaccos actually RYO cigarette tobacco pretending to be pipe tobacco to get around the extra taxes?

 

[JohnKing]

Just wondering.. are these "dual use" tobaccos actually RYO cigarette tobacco pretending to be pipe tobacco to get around the extra taxes?

It's a slightly different cut but does work well in tube injectors so that may be the case.

There is a terminology to this; RYO = roll your own, MYO = make your own, the MYO crowd uses tube injectors. If you can get a cut to work in a tube injector I'd say it's safe to call it "dual purpose".

 

[kardenm]

I inquired at a tobacco shop today. They recommended American Spirit (expensive) or Good Stuff Natural (much cheaper). I bought the Good Stuff to try next.

 

[kardenm]

Absolutely. They are RYO tobacco. They just changed it slightly and call it pipe tobacco to avoid the taxes. But! You better stock up now because they will catch on eventually and start taxing everything tobacco.

 

[kinabaloo]

Tuesday will write up the method in a new thread. Hopefully it will be sufficiently tested and verified by then. I will do another run-through myself before then also.

So any experiences and coments, speak up !

It would be nice to have a figure for the overall extraction efficiency; looking like it will be over 90%.

And that the calcium carbonate / hydroxide removal of excess citric acid is effective.

I think there are a few trials in the pipeline so after the weekend, we should hopefully be able to tie some things down, else we'll estimate.

Don't want to lose the momentum.

 

[tescela]

Notwithstanding the point you are trying to make about safety, we should note that there are plenty of people who would rather take a few drags off a WTA eliquid-loaded PV every hour or so, as opposed to having an ever-present snus pouch in their mouth.

Yep, which is why I did acknowledge that snus doesn't do it in a preferential sense for some people... and thus the traditional hand/mouth/vapor preference... but certainly worth a try to see if it does the trick.. some folks who thought snus was gross now swear by it.

To be clear, I'm going to rephrase this a bit: my point is NOT related to the hand/mouth/vapor preference. Rather, it is that a few puffs of WTA eliquid every hour or so is most likely preferable to many people, because you do it quickly and then you are done for quite a while. That has tangible advantages. For example, try eating a meal with snus in your mouth.

Damn glad to see you guys are still at it. Dvap, I surely thought of you when I tested Star Scientific's CigRX product. It can't hold a candle to the WTA liquid you made and I tested with two others. I'll check back every few months to see how things are going (yep, I still e-smoke daily, and keep a snus or Stonewall in my mouth; just passed by third year of daily e-smoking {Jan. 3} and am coming up on four years off cigarettes.

Wow, TB, its been so long since I've seen a post from you that I thought maybe you were dead. Seriously.

As the single most nicotine AND MAOI-dependent person I've ever known, it seems like you would be heavily involved in this thread (as opposed to just checking in every few months). What gives?

Don't want to lose the momentum.

Amen to that!

 

[deusXmchna]

I inquired at a tobacco shop today. They recommended American Spirit (expensive) or Good Stuff Natural (much cheaper). I bought the Good Stuff to try next.

That's good to hear. The last batch of "Good Stuff" I have is so heavily cased it's practically dripping.. and it's almost a year old! Smoking the stuff...*ugh*. Should nail them on false branding
I'm glad they're making something with less casing on it.

Originally Posted by DVap
Just wondering.. are these "dual use" tobaccos actually RYO cigarette tobacco pretending to be pipe tobacco to get around the extra taxes?

They are RYO/MYO's... except they're using a wider cut- somewhere between a ribbon cut and a coarse shag, and most of them are cased a little more heavily than the traditional RYO/MYO's.

For my 3-4 sticks a day that I still combust (I find them convenient timers when taking the dogs out), I use D&R's Three Sails. It's a lightly (if at all) cased bright british-style Virginia, and it's still extra-fine shag cut. I don't know how important cut is in this experiment (whether the cell walls impede the transfer of the alkaloids -> solvent), and if a finer cut would help in the "mashing stuff up" phase (<- technical term).

Traditionally, Virginia's aren't cased hard because they already combine a high nicotine & high sugar content (after curing). The trade-off is that they are usually a bit more expensive.

Three Sails Blend Pipe Cut Tobacco-14 OZ Pouch

 

[kardenm]

Tuesday will write up the method in a new thread. Hopefully it will be sufficiently tested and verified by then. I will do another run-through myself before then also.

So any experiences and coments, speak up !

It would be nice to have a figure for the overall extraction efficiency; looking like it will be over 90%.

And that the calcium carbonate / hydroxide removal of excess citric acid is effective.

I think there are a few trials in the pipeline so after the weekend, we should hopefully be able to tie some things down, else we'll estimate.

Don't want to lose the momentum.

In a separate post (right after) might be really helpful to include information about materials and equipment to use and where to get them.

That info and other notes such as problems with scale up, techniques, improvements for those who want to get fancy, safety, etc., could be posted as ongoing additions to the thread.

Thanks again for your efforts kina. This really is your baby.

 

[kardenm]

That's good to hear. The last batch of "Good Stuff" I have is so heavily cased it's practically dripping.. and it's almost a year old! Smoking the stuff...*ugh*. Should nail them on false branding
I'm glad they're making something with less casing on it.

What is "casing" ?

 

[deusXmchna]

What is "casing" ?

In the context of this thread, its "crud" . In the context of smoking & chewing tobacco, it's flavor additives, sweeteners, humectants (VG & PG).

I vaguely remember a story, or an urban legend, about a TobaccoExec saying, in response to being asked about butterfat in cigarettes, that: "if we didn't add all that stuff, no one would want to smoke them" (paraphrased)

FWIW
Goodstuff Natural - $20.25/lb (that includes shipping).

 

[JohnKing]

I think baseline formulas should be composed of natural (untreated) leaf, it's readily available and quite cheap vs. snus, etc.. Corporate cigarette tobacco is composed of "tobacco products", sheet and a lot of other junk, not so sure what you could be getting. I got a weak looking solution using organic tobacco and wonder if that had something to do with the raw material, I did shoot for a weaker solution though as my thinking was that leaf in its natural state may produce more goodies than I wanted, I know from smoking that an organic analog produces way more punch/satisfaction than any corporate product. I give some filtered MYO cigs out and most people can only smoke half a cig before getting the buzz. Anecdotal here but my GF has cut her cig consumption in half by switching to organic, you really have to space out the usage.

 

[JohnKing]

Tuesday will write up the method in a new thread. Hopefully it will be sufficiently tested and verified by then. I will do another run-through myself before then also.

So any experiences and coments, speak up !

It would be nice to have a figure for the overall extraction efficiency; looking like it will be over 90%.

And that the calcium carbonate / hydroxide removal of excess citric acid is effective.

I think there are a few trials in the pipeline so after the weekend, we should hopefully be able to tie some things down, else we'll estimate.

Don't want to lose the momentum.

Thanks kinabaloo and all the rest that are keeping this going. I'm looking forward to it!

 

[aprioristic]

The sort of solution required here, if used, would need to be perhaps 0.01N, which is relatively tame (compared to 1N+), but I still wouldn't want any in my eyes.

You are talking about Normality here right? I actually didn't catch how much sodium carbonate people are using per 20ml solution or whatever, but I am going to make an effort to go through this thread again later today. Let me see if I understand the basic idea though:

The further above the target alkaloid's pKa, say nicotine at roughly 8, which the alkaline solution is, the greater amount of freebase salts will be extracted from the tobacco. So, if we're using acids/bases that aren't strong enough, we might not get an accurate ratio of what naturally occurs in tobacco.

By "required" here, I take it that you mean that a fairly concentrated sodium carbonate solution, or relatively weak solution of something higher pH is good enough for a "kitchen method" to get what kinabaloo called 90% WTA.

After finding this PDF, it seems clear that the alkaloid profile varies between types of tobaccos (see Tables 2/3). So that makes me want to go back to the neurochemistry of these alkaloids individually and ask what exactly it is that we want.

Also, I assume that I will end up with nornicotine (7.75 pKa) no matter what, but I don't think we want 4-(N-methyl-N-Nitrosoamino)-Nornicotine (9.46 pKa) or 2,2'-Bipyridine (Dipyridyl, 4.55 pKa).

Maybe I am just confused here, but besides Anabasine @9.2, there is nothing else that high of pKa, so maybe we don't even want to use a very strong basic solution? I'm having a hard time though finding out what these things like anabatine and anabasine really do to us though.

Looking at CigRx again, it is anabatine and yerba mate extract. I found some stuff about Native Americans and tobacco which said that the species containing more anabatine/anabasine and little nicotine were used similarly to the more popularly cultivated nicotine-containing species. We have plenty of pure nicotine and I take it that we don't get much mg/ml out of these extractions anyhow, so why shouldn't we be extracting from a species like n. glauca if we are after stuff like anabatine?

It's a separatory funnel, always has been, always will be. The assumption with a sep funnel is that gas evolution/pressure evolution WILL happen, even if it's not supposed to happen. This is why there are safety procedures a chemist will tend to follow religiously, even if they're probably not necessary for the present procedure.

Somehow I got the word "fractional" or something in my head, sorry. This one looks good as a whole kit of stand/holder/funnel for a little over $50. I only got to talk to my brother briefly last night, but it looks like we might do two batches, one along the lines of the kitchen process here that should be relatively safe for the untrained, then he seems to know what to do in some sort of lab procedure. It seems like he can use his lab, but probably not any of their chems. I got the idea that some of the hardware-store type solvents really aren't good to use, or need removed by vacuum. He seems to have various ideas about making the WTA more pure, so I am just going to leave that up to him.

I'm partial to American Spirit. A full isolation/purification will result in alkaloids and any "flavor" characteristics unique to the tobacco won't make it into the product. With less than pure product, the flavors unique to the tobacco would tend to be more likely to come through in the product.

I think baseline formulas should be composed of natural (untreated) leaf, it's readily available and quite cheap vs. snus, etc.. Corporate cigarette tobacco is composed of "tobacco products", sheet and a lot of other junk, not so sure what you could be getting. I got a weak looking solution using organic tobacco and wonder if that had something to do with the raw material, I did shoot for a weaker solution though as my thinking was that leaf in its natural state may produce more goodies than I wanted, I know from smoking that an organic analog produces way more punch/satisfaction than any corporate product. I give some filtered MYO cigs out and most people can only smoke half a cig before getting the buzz. Anecdotal here but my GF has cut her cig consumption in half by switching to organic, you really have to space out the usage.

I'm still looking into this, but it seems like being organic is less important than the amount of nitrates and nitrites used in processing/growing/curing, in terms of not getting TSNA's (tobacco-specific nitrosamines, which are carcinogens). I'm not familiar with how organic farming could affect that.

It seems like we want less casing and finer cuts where possible, but I am still pretty confused on the variety of tobacco or the aging process we want. If I don't find anything out, I will go with American Spirit or similar, but I will be able to stop at this place, Fader's Tobacco, if I want to hone in on something later.