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tceight

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Jul 11, 2010
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lets see... sounds like a WTA enema... the needles to take the pain away..

not sure about the icing gun? some sort of "i have a gun" fetish?
did the " I'm kind of excited about it," give it away? lol

for those doing their own experiments, an icing gun with a bit of filter paper in the end makes a tool for sqeezing out the tobacco.
If you want to scale it up, a plastic caulking tube. (one that had latex based caulk in it) ,
use air or water pressure to blow the plastic plunger back out,
clean it well,
load it up with the wet tobacco and put it back in the gun.
You can sqeeze the tobacco almost dry.

no turkeys were harmed in any way.
 
did the " I'm kind of excited about it," give it away? lol

for those doing their own experiments, an icing gun with a bit of filter paper in the end makes a tool for sqeezing out the tobacco.
If you want to scale it up, a plastic caulking tube. (one that had latex based caulk in it) ,
use air or water pressure to blow the plastic plunger back out,
clean it well,
load it up with the wet tobacco and put it back in the gun.
You can sqeeze the tobacco almost dry.

no turkeys were harmed in any way.

Nice idea.

But am waiting to hear how to separate the alkaloids from the carbs, proteins etc ...

I assume you have made progress on that (?)
 

Timberwear

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known that yerba mate has MAOI's for awhile. I did a stint for almost 2 months where i'd eat a bit of it raw 4-5 times during the day. made me really high... but its its own type of high... very sociable.. uppity..

over time for whatever reason i came to like the tobacco high better.

but CigRX has the yerba mate in it.
 

tceight

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it would be nice if some1 like kina could test u'r batch to find out exactly what's in it to determine it's safety against lighting up. and if it's worth it it could b the american e-juice?

I'm happy with it, all of the processes have been used for 100's of years by herbalists/ chemists. All materials are food safe, you can even use canola oil if you want to wait a week for it to drain, and lose a lot in emulsions, but you eat about 50grams of mineral oil a year anyway.

what is "in it" is what was in the tobacco, but less of it.
The end alkaloids are in a salt form called tartrates.
nicotine bitartrate dihydrate is the salt found in nicotine lozenges.

What would you suggest for safety analysis? I have access to a Liquid Gas chromatograph, but doubt the profile would show me anything 'useful'. Maybe I better just apply to the FDA for clinical trials. ;)
I respect your opinion though, and have removed the posted method, until there is a majority consensus or support otherwise to post it.
individuals with interest can PM me.
 
I'm happy with it, all of the processes have been used for 100's of years by herbalists/ chemists. All materials are food safe, you can even use canola oil if you want to wait a week for it to drain, and lose a lot in emulsions, but you eat about 50grams of mineral oil a year anyway.

what is "in it" is what was in the tobacco, but less of it.
The end alkaloids are in a salt form called tartrates.
nicotine bitartrate dihydrate is the salt found in nicotine lozenges.

What would you suggest for safety analysis? I have access to a Liquid Gas chromatograph, but doubt the profile would show me anything 'useful'. Maybe I better just apply to the FDA for clinical trials. ;)
I respect your opinion though, and have removed the posted method, until there is a majority consensus or support otherwise to post it.
individuals with interest can PM me.

Good to hear the latest. I missed the details posting though - perhaps you can send a PM tceight.

I remember discussing the possible use of mineral oil a long time ago as a much easier alternative to say ether.
 

BCB

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Glad to see you didn't die in some horrible lab explosion! I think it would be funny to apply for clinical trials with the FDA. Boy, would you get a sheaf of papers to fill out! Good fire starter for the winter I guess.

Anyway, did you vape any? Did it work? I haven't a clue how to test anything for safety.
 

tceight

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Glad to see you didn't die in some horrible lab explosion! I think it would be funny to apply for clinical trials with the FDA. Boy, would you get a sheaf of papers to fill out! Good fire starter for the winter I guess.

Anyway, did you vape any? Did it work? I haven't a clue how to test anything for safety.

still here.. exam's are done for a while, and now the real test.... summer vacation with the kids.

it finally 'worked' after about 100$ in wasted tobacco and various 'kitchen chemicals'. I have a fully stocked oil and spice cabinet in the kitchen now though. lol
I've been vaping it for a few days now, and it is fantastic. It feels far more 'full' for lack of a better word, and I had to keep cutting it down to what I think is less than 5mg/ml. At that level, it is still more satisfying than the 24mg/ml nic juice I have.

I'm very safety conscious, and I've gone over the method I typed up a few times. I don't see anything that stands out as dangerous in either the end product or at any point in the process.
 

tceight

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Jul 11, 2010
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Ontario, Canada
Good to hear the latest. I missed the details posting though - perhaps you can send a PM tceight.

I remember discussing the possible use of mineral oil a long time ago as a much easier alternative to say ether.

I must have missed that post. I searched all the forums for mention of mineral oil in extractions, so as not to reinvent the wheel, or go down a dead end.
It may be easier to get, and safer...... but not so easy to work with as an extraction solvent due to it's viscosity. I found a way to make that viscosity work to our benefit though.
 

DemonCowboy

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Jun 18, 2010
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u got me all wrong tceight, i just want to know what all got transferred and what didn't.

1) it could make it easier to isolate what it is we ARE after specifically by eliminating what didn't come through.

2) it makes u, i and every1 else aware of the differences.

3) helps every1 else determine if they DO in fact want to try it at home. (just today i planned to copy and past it in a word doc. for future use if the need arose - such as if the FDA did find a loophole or reason to enact some sort of ban.)

that's all i was after, more info as to what made it through to help us all make an informed decision. by all means put it back up, as i wasn't belittling u'r work in the slightest, i would just like more information. that's y i suggested some to some1 like kina or some1 w/ access to equipment that could tell us what exactly made it through.
 
One weight band of purified mineral oil is sold as 'baby oil' here in the UK. It's just a room-temps liquid hydrocarbon (alkane), a fraction of crude oil petroleum. I'm pretty sure it is just a separator-carrier in the preperation process and is not in tceight's final product in any measurable amount.

Like a curry without the ginger, once it is fully rounded, one knows its right !
 
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DVap

Nicotiana Alchemia
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See what happens when I get busy for a couple weeks? Folks start talking chemistry without me. :unsure:

tceight... if you're interested, you might contact me via PM for some information to help you around the tobacco matrix issues. I usually hold this stuff pretty close to the vest since it's a bit more involved than kitchen chemistry, but it seems you're pretty committed...
 

tceight

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Jul 11, 2010
315
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I can't see anything dangerous in here, short of conventional kitchen hazards such as hot oil, and I would pit the end product against burning tobacco in any safety test one can come up with.

So here it is, a kitchen chemical AcidBase extraction, with no concentration of nicotine to dangerous levels at any point.

Gear
- small metal or glass pot. size determined by the batch you wish to do.
I was working with 20g of tobacco at a time, so a small pyrex measuring cup makes a great 'pot'
- coffee grinder,
- 10ml syringe with a blunt tip needle.
-large turkey baster (60 ml)
-coffee filters.
-spatula

ingredients.
- good rolling tobacco, not 'reconstituted leaf'. or better yet use uncured leaf tobacco if you can get it. (no TSNA's)
-baking soda
-light mineral oil USP
-cream of tartar
-propylene glycol or glycerin
-tumeric (optional)
-salt (optional)
-distilled water

step1.
- boil a few (50) ml of distilled water, and dissolve the baking soda into it until no more will dissolve. This is your alkaline solution to free the salts in the tobacco and is about pH 11
- saturate a few ml of distilled water with cream of tartar. room temperature is fine, this will be used at the very end.

step2.
- measure out 20g of tobacco. this is about 3/4cup loose settled tobacco.
- grind up the tobacco into a powder, and add about 0.5 to 1 drop per gram of the solution in step one. You want the tobacco barely moist and not wet at all. (in my case with 20g I added about 12 drops, depends on how dry the tobacco is in the first place)
-let this moist powder sit for about 30 min. this allows time for the salts to convert, as well as the cell walls to break down, releasing the alkaloids.
-optional to step 2, bake some baking soda at 400F for an hour to convert it to sodium carbonate, and add a gram of this to the tobacco while grinding. Still, ensure the tobacco is moist.

step3.
heat 20 ml of mineral oil to about 212F and add the tobacco powder to it. Let this sit and steep for about 30 min to an hour

step4.
take off the squeeze bulb and stuff a small piece of coffee filter into the small end of the turkey baster. If you can't find a large enough baster, a 60ml HDPE syringe works great. spoon the oil/tobacco mixture into the baster, Set the baster vertically over a small cup to catch the filtered oil dripping out the end. Very little if anything will come out at this point. (caution, remember this is HOT oil)

step 5. heat up another 30ml of mineral oil to about 200F, and pour on top of the oil/tobacco powder in the baster.

step6. Wait....leave for 24hrs or longer. The viscosity of the oil, and the fineness of the powdered tobacco really slows things down. There is an advantage to doing it this way, as we end up with a very concentrated oil, with a minimal number of extractions. The clean oil seems to create an interface and slowly displaces the oil in the tobacco as it drips out. A bit like column chromatography or IX dedeuteration.
***The first time I did this, I didn't heat the oil up first, or mix it with the tobacco. I just poured the oil onto the top of the dry powdered tobacco. It took 24hr's just to saturate the tobacco, and another 4 days to get 25ml back.

you should now have about 25-30 ml of dark amber oil in your catch container. And we will optimistically 'assume' about 200mg of alkaloids. There will also be some very small fines that got through the filter, as well as some carbonates from the baking soda that made it through.

step 7. (optional, but really cleans things up a lot)
take 25ml of distilled water, this to the oil, and shake well for a few minutes. Let settle and separate into layers. (may take 10-20 min) The oil will be lighter in colour now, more yellow than amber. There will be some small loss of alkaloids in this step, but because the water will become quite alkaline from the contaminants it absorbs, the alkaloids should still be preferentially dissolved in the oil.
Keep the oil by siphoning off with a syringe and discard all the water and any emulsions that formed.


step8.
add a tiny 'pinch' of cream of tartar to the oil and shake well.
it won't dissolve in there, but that is not what we are trying to do.
we are just attempting to displace any of the leftover baking soda particulate with the cream of tartar, so that in the next step, the acidic polar solvent won't be neutralized by any remaining baking soda.
Let the particulate settle, and pour off the oil into a clean container.


Step 9.
add a drop of the cream of tartar water you made in step one to your PG or glycerine, 1 or 2 drops per 10 ml is enough.
- add 10ml of the PG to the oil, shake well, let separate, and extract the PG with the syringe.
- add 10ml, shake well, let separate, and extract the PG with the syringe.

- assuming there is 200mg of alkaloids in the oil, you would add 10ml of PG to get 20mg/ml.
This stuff is way stronger than any nic juice i've tried, so I kept adding 10ml at a time, until I had 40ml. (5mg/ml assuming)

So, either I am way off in my guestimates of extraction efficiency, or the WTA is Very synergistic.
- next batch, I will just add the 40ml of pg to the 25ml of oil all at once and simplify this step further.

Step 10... dripped my homemade WTA into a fresh atty and ... wow. Warning... going back to straight nic is going to be tough.

this whole process is just an age old "acid/ base extraction", but with the advantage of using the PG as the final solvent, one avoids ever having to concentrate nicotine to dangerous levels.
Nonetheless, there is NO recommendation on my part that anyone try this themselves. This is just a writeup of my own experiments and results.

Extra stuff...
Step 7, 9 and step '11', can be 'monitored' for accuracy by the use of Turmeric (curcamin), It will change from yellow to red at pH 7.5-8.5.

Step 11, if you so choose (I think it unnecessary) is to add baking soda to your WTA juice to neutralize it. Take 1/2 ml (10 drops) and add to a few ml of distilled water and turmeric.
Dilute some of the baking soda solution from step one 10:1 and add it drop by drop until it turns red. (one drop did it for me so maybe try 20:1) Then use that ratio to neutralize the PG/Glycerine. Or, if you like curry flavoured juice, add the Turmeric to the juice, and add the sodium carbonate until it turns red.

Play safe, and use common sense. :)
 
Cream of tartar is potassium bitartrate, also known as potassium hydrogen tartrate.

Ingenious use of the curcumin :)

"It took 24hr's just to saturate the tobacco, and another 4 days to get 25ml back."
= So that's what took the time ;) Only joking, this was well worth waiting for.

Potentially 800mg alkaloids extracted (depending on the tobacco) but it is also the synergistic effects of the non-nic alkaloids that contributes to the potency also (as you said).

Bravo !
 
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