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I pulverize to a powder using a small food processor, but I think the real trick to maximizing recovery would be to rupture the plant cells in a much more aggressive manner... such as with an ultrasonic extraction setup. This isn't the same thing as an ultrasonic bath (like used to clean jewelry), but is a piece of specialized laboratory equipment. Perhaps the ultrasonic batch would have some advantage but to get the really powerful cavitation and shearing forces going, it takes a high power lab unit that immerses into the solvent/tobacco mix and raises hell.
When considering the trade-offs, I usually consider how I would do things given access to the right equipment -vs- how I can do things "good enough" given the limitation that I can't just set up in a prep lab at work and do whatever I want... and try to minimize the difference.
When considering the trade-offs, I usually consider how I would do things given access to the right equipment -vs- how I can do things "good enough" given the limitation that I can't just set up in a prep lab at work and do whatever I want... and try to minimize the difference.
I think this is the problem area, rather than the chemistry / process.
How about freezing ?
Hi slopes.
I make all my guestimates on a transfer efficiency of 50%. I think this is 'highly conservative' (for safeties sake), as I am my own guinea pig and I believe the actual efficiency is less than this. I'm more interested in creating 'something that works' than optimizing the efficiency, as I don't have the tools, time, or training to engineer the process.
mentioned by kin, there is a titration method or 2 or three listed here on ECF, but there is no way they can work on the end product of this process for several reasons. The biggest one, is that the alkaloids are not in freebase form but in salts, so an acid titration would be meaningless. Even if the process ended as freebase alkaloids, this process is far too impure to give any kind of accuracy. The only way's I can think of to actually measure it are both expensive (waste a lot of tobacco) and dangerous (concentrating the nicotine).
other than safety and ensuring that I don't ever have too high a concentration, I don't care what the efficiency is, only it's effects. As mentioned in before, for whatever reason, the effects of the maoi's are very noticeable... so I know I am getting them. They do seem too strong in relation to the available nicotine, and have been experimenting with adding nic only juice trying to find the 'sweet spot', and have stumbled across some very satisfying combinations.
I say stumbled.... my 'experiments' can not even be called that, because my approach has been very alchemical and holistic, trying what seems a good idea at the time. I can write it up, but there is no 'definitive guide' so much as guidelines. I compare this to basement wine making due the number of factors involved, and the lack of lab equipment. You can still make good wine without knowing the alcohol, acid, tannins, sugar content, etc.
Scientific method experimentation may be the most accurate method, but ingenuity and 'throwing stuff til it sticks' can come up with viable solutions too. I will write up what I've been throwing, and maybe someone else will come up with a new ice wine.
interesting...... I keep my experimental bag of baccy in the freezer, and a few months in there would create needles of ice that would rupture the cells. Freezer burn put to good use! This may explain partly why I seem to be getting results with substandard processes.
Interesting re the freezing
Wouldn't need a month; one night would do the trick, if it does rupture the cell walls (as t can do with some types of food - or is that just the super-structure?)Couldn't one freebase the liquid sample first then titrate with an acid (subtracting the know quantity of base / comparing with a just base titration)?
I doubt there would be any impurities that could affect the titration; it might be an inneficient process but it should be restricting to alkaloids effectively.
I suspect that the efficiency of extraction is possibly over 50%, hence it's effects (partly of course that is the preponderence of MAOIs that i expected). Even if it was 30% that is 3x better than (the heat of) combustion; better still for the MAOI fraction.
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tceight - thanks for your reply. I can't wait to try one of your methods.
Can I clarify the following points...
1) The heating of bicarbonate to make carbonate is not a part of your last detailed process (and is instead a possible alternative to one of its steps)?
2) That the simplified method you describe in your last instruction set requires no heating at all?
3) Am I to understand that an icing pump replaces your turkey baster - into which you put a coffee filter base before the prepared tobacco/oil mixture is tipped in (with a suitable container positioned below)?
4) That the icing pump is used (in preference to the turkey baster) so that after the filtering process is completed, the whole device can be used to 'squeeze' (compact) down the remaining mixture so as to extract any remaining oil from it?
Many thanks again, in advance.
Can I clarify the following points...
1) The heating of bicarbonate to make carbonate is not a part of your last detailed process (and is instead a possible alternative to one of its steps)?
2) That the simplified method you describe in your last instruction set requires no heating at all?
3) Am I to understand that an icing pump replaces your turkey baster - into which you put a coffee filter base before the prepared tobacco/oil mixture is tipped in (with a suitable container positioned below)?
4) That the icing pump is used (in preference to the turkey baster) so that after the filtering process is completed, the whole device can be used to 'squeeze' (compact) down the remaining mixture so as to extract any remaining oil from it?
Many thanks again, in advance.
Hi Slopes.
step one is not an alternative, and in my experience is the most important step of all. It's important to use sodium carbonate, NOT sodium BIcarbonate, as the former will get you a pH of only about 8.5.
Sodium carbonate is not some esoteric chemical... it's used around the house for water softening in laundry, in pools, etc. The method I suggested for making your own, was to ENSURE that only 'FOOD GRADE' chemicals were used in this process.
so... start with Baking Soda (sodium BIcarbonate) spread it out on tinfoil and bake it for a couple hours at 400F to convert it to sodium carbonate. Let it cool, and put it in an airtight container.
You only have to do this once, and you will have years and years worth supply.
Step 2. Heating speeds the process. if you have the time, it's not required. Kin's suggestion of shaking/tumbling etc speeds the process too. Lots of factors can be experimented to speed this up.
ie, heat increases mean kinetic energy, also increases convection, faster dissolution
shaking tumbling, increases mixing, bringing lower concentration solute in contact,
smaller particle size (grinding) increases surface area contact. (picture a jar full of stones vs a jar full COPYRIGHTDMCA's.)
Oh, the 212F is not a majick number... I used a double boiler to ensure the oil did not get too hot, and therefore max temp at STP is 212F/100C
Step 3/4 the icing gun replaced the 'interface displacement' method of recovering the oil. The interface method gives a cleaner final product, even visually, no filtration is required and no water gets carried over to deal with. icing gun is just 'quicker'. you can just squeeze out the oil any way you want.... it gets messy though.
OK - the efforts of a layman:
1) Baked Bicarbonate of Soda in the oven at 200C for 2 hours (spread thinly on a metal tray). No discernible difference in its appearance or texture... it perhaps looks slightly yellower.
2) Boiled 50ml purified water. Added power (as above) in large pinches. It fizzed as it entered the boiling water. Added more until water looked very slightly less transparent. I must have put about a level desert spoon in all together.
3) 20g of tobacco is ground up in coffee grinder. Not exactly a 'powder' - but close. Has a slight moist oily feel.
1) Baked Bicarbonate of Soda in the oven at 200C for 2 hours (spread thinly on a metal tray). No discernible difference in its appearance or texture... it perhaps looks slightly yellower.
2) Boiled 50ml purified water. Added power (as above) in large pinches. It fizzed as it entered the boiling water. Added more until water looked very slightly less transparent. I must have put about a level desert spoon in all together.
3) 20g of tobacco is ground up in coffee grinder. Not exactly a 'powder' - but close. Has a slight moist oily feel.
I haven't added any drops of the liquid yet. When the cooked powder fizzed (when placed in the water) I was a bit worried the cooking process hadn't worked at converting it from Baking Soda to sodium carbonate. If you think it sounds Ok I will proceed.
Did you notice the bicarnoate release steam when in the oven ?
If it fizzed when placed in the water it sounds like it was converted to the carbonate.
If it fizzed when placed in the water it sounds like it was converted to the carbonate.
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I looked in a couple of times when cooking but couldn't really see any steam being released (although the cooking of it did smell). There were no tiny craters in the powder after 2 hours to suggest any gasses had been let out. I guess it didn't do what I was imagining it would.
When I placed it in the water there was an immediate fizz and then it quickly settled down and mixed in. Adding the powder resulted in a small number of slightly 'soapy' looking little bubbles at the edge of the waterline.
I think I will go ahead and add the drops to the baccy.
When I placed it in the water there was an immediate fizz and then it quickly settled down and mixed in. Adding the powder resulted in a small number of slightly 'soapy' looking little bubbles at the edge of the waterline.
I think I will go ahead and add the drops to the baccy.
Maybe the oven was not hot enough.
But if has yellowed a bit maybe it has converted ok.
Hard to say. Perhaps try adding the bicarb to some water to see if the fizz is different. Fizz as in bubbles would suggest it is still bicarbonate.
Wikipedia says the conversion is fast at 200C http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_bicarbonate
But it might be best to go higher to be sure. Say, 300C
Best to try the bicarbonate conversion again to be sure.
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It must have converted. I just read somewhere saying bake for an hour at 160C. Mine was in for 2 hours and was definitely 200C. In fact it is a fan-assited oven so probably dispersed any released gas quickly.
Yes, just checked. It will fizz.
Na2CO3 (aq) + 2 HOH (l) -> H2CO3 (aq) + 2 NaOH (aq)
The H2CO3 part (carbonic acid, simply just CO2 dissolved in water) decomposes to CO2 bubbles and water (HOH).
So when the sodium carbonate is dissolved in water, it creates a solution of sodium oxide (sodium hydroxide) and the hydroxide ions make the solution alkaline.
In contrast, the bicarbonate fizzes when heated and if reacts with an acid, not simply by being dissolved (unless the liquid is acidic).
So, yes, it was converted just fine
Will need to note that in the polished protocol write up.
The fan obviously made it hard to see.
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