My computer was down yesterday, so was excited to read this morning before work. All kinabaloo's posts were edited out. Why?
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Hi all,
Was getting too confusing. I am running more tests to work out the bugs and solutions.
Was getting too confusing. I am running more tests to work out the bugs and solutions.
Here's a pic of the tobbaco after extraction of the alkaloids.
One can see it looks bleached, a pale gray color (plus some crystalised carbonate)
This stage works very well.
One can see it looks bleached, a pale gray color (plus some crystalised carbonate)
This stage works very well.
OK. I am going to try diluting my stiff oil/water/tobacco mixture with a small amount of vodka so that I can press the liquid from it in the garlic press. I'll then heat the extracted liquid to evaporate the alcohol and reduce a bit.
There is some mineral oil in the mix (but I ran out of it yesterday).
The garlic press is no good with fine powders and stiff mixes.
I thinned out my mix with some vodka - until it had a creamy consistency. I then placed the mix onto a small cafetiere and, using the plunger, pressed the liquid out (poured off into a dish as I went along). This took a while to collect all the last drips. As the dregs were still fairly moist, I wrapped them in a piece of cloth and twisted the tie to gather the remaining liquid.
I'm not sure now if the collected liquid is oil-based or water-based (!). I will let it settle and see what it looks like.
It might be worth investing in one of these... If there's a route for the liquid to exit, it would be ideal.
Grassleaf Heavy Duty T Lock Pollen Press
Grassleaf Heavy Duty T Lock Pollen Press
It's looking a bit like oxtail soup at the moment 
There is an oil in there - but I'm not sure how much yet. I'm thinking the longer I leave it as it, the more vodka will evaporate.
There is an oil in there - but I'm not sure how much yet. I'm thinking the longer I leave it as it, the more vodka will evaporate.
If you wait a few weeks maybe ...
What's it matter though, you just need the top oil layer.
What's it matter though, you just need the top oil layer.
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Been running various tests. At the moment I'm rechecking the use of avocado oil (fatty acids vs alkanes).
Isn't there a process where you can wash the fat off with distilled water/sodium carbonate solution? But I'm probably chasing up the completely wrong tree here.
My tentative conclusions are that mineral oil does not work well. That a vegetable oil like avocado seems to work very well - at both stages, taking in the alkaloids from the alkaline water during the tobacco soak and releasing then in the acidic water (ascorbic acid). Sometimes some of the oil turns to fat, but this doesn't seem to do any harm.
So I will rerun my first try with lower volumes (higher concentrations). The first batch was good, even if weak (because of over dilution).
Hoping tceight will try to duplicate what I found - to make sure it is truely following the process for sorting out just the alkaloids.
~~~
The second try was astonishingly good at extracting the goodies from the tobacco - i think i had extra carbonate crystals in the mix as well as saturated water. When it dried the tobacco was like a white ash. The photo i posted earlier shows some color but that's because i took it with indoor lighting plus it was still a little damp. Now it is almost white and crumbles to dust between one's fingers.
The extraction with carbonate (hydroxide) can work very well.
~~~
Took the extract that the mineral oil took little color from and add avocado oil, shook and let settle a few times (only takes 5 minutes total). It took a quite lot of color (not all, but not all that's colored is what we want). Onto the acid stage and again the color goes almost entirely to the acidic water. It does take a fair bit of acid though. That's probably because of picking up some carbonate water as it I am working with small amounts and the syringe will sometimes pull liquid upwards from the layer below.
So I will rerun my first try with lower volumes (higher concentrations). The first batch was good, even if weak (because of over dilution).
Hoping tceight will try to duplicate what I found - to make sure it is truely following the process for sorting out just the alkaloids.
~~~
The second try was astonishingly good at extracting the goodies from the tobacco - i think i had extra carbonate crystals in the mix as well as saturated water. When it dried the tobacco was like a white ash. The photo i posted earlier shows some color but that's because i took it with indoor lighting plus it was still a little damp. Now it is almost white and crumbles to dust between one's fingers.
The extraction with carbonate (hydroxide) can work very well.
~~~
Took the extract that the mineral oil took little color from and add avocado oil, shook and let settle a few times (only takes 5 minutes total). It took a quite lot of color (not all, but not all that's colored is what we want). Onto the acid stage and again the color goes almost entirely to the acidic water. It does take a fair bit of acid though. That's probably because of picking up some carbonate water as it I am working with small amounts and the syringe will sometimes pull liquid upwards from the layer below.
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kinabaloo - that sounds very positive.
My latest effort involves simmering ground tobacco powder in a distilled water/sodium carbonate solution. Reducing the liquid down, and then filtering out the waste matter.
I mix the liquid with a small amount of high% vodka in sealed bottle, shake and wait to see if it separates. If so, the alcohol should begin to pick up the alkaloids.
My latest effort involves simmering ground tobacco powder in a distilled water/sodium carbonate solution. Reducing the liquid down, and then filtering out the waste matter.
I mix the liquid with a small amount of high% vodka in sealed bottle, shake and wait to see if it separates. If so, the alcohol should begin to pick up the alkaloids.
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I know alcohols are polar organic molecules hence miscible with water but I cant see what the role is intended to be.
After eextraction the alkaloids will be in organic (freebase) form hence non-polar and migrate to the oil (to the extent that the oil is a reasonably good solvent).
~~~
later : wondering if after convert the alkaloids to sallts at the last stage, we could reconvert them to freebase form (which will dissolve nicely in the VG / PG) and thereby perhaps be more usable / efficaceous in the vape
After eextraction the alkaloids will be in organic (freebase) form hence non-polar and migrate to the oil (to the extent that the oil is a reasonably good solvent).
~~~
later : wondering if after convert the alkaloids to sallts at the last stage, we could reconvert them to freebase form (which will dissolve nicely in the VG / PG) and thereby perhaps be more usable / efficaceous in the vape
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Sounds intriguing with the avocado oil. Maybe I abandoned the vegetable oils too soon. I'm going to make up a few different small batches at the same time, trying to keep all variables as close to the same as possible except for the oil. Then I'll extract with the most efficient chemicals I have at my disposal, and attempt to quantify the extraction. None of this will be vapable, but should I hope prove educational.
another job in the job jar, is to measure the pH of my bottle of citric acid, as it is another potential variable that is causing a difference in our extractions.
Can anyone lend me some 'time'?
Sounds intriguing with the avocado oil. Maybe I abandoned the vegetable oils too soon. I'm going to make up a few different small batches at the same time, trying to keep all variables as close to the same as possible except for the oil. Then I'll extract with the most efficient chemicals I have at my disposal, and attempt to quantify the extraction. None of this will be vapable, but should I hope prove educational.
another job in the job jar, is to measure the pH of my bottle of citric acid, as it is another potential variable that is causing a difference in our extractions.
Can anyone lend me some 'time'?
Good idea the batch testing
However, I'd use ascorbic acid as that's what everyone can use. I'm more interested in that than in something that works only if you have a lab/doctorate.
The pH of ascorbic I noted in an earlier post. It seems to work excellently with the avocado oil (perhaps olive oil would be the next best thing - cold-pressed, just like my avocado oil)
To me, the difference in efficacy of veg oil over mineral is massive*; just hope it is replicable.
* Either I'm doing something wrong, or the difference is shocking.
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I figured it would be best to optimize parameters as much as possible on one front, and then from there, do batch samples of the most promising solvent at different concentrations and types of acids. Unfortunately, the lack of quality equipment means the sample sizes are going to have to be large enough (ie. expensive) to be able to quantify the results.
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