Beta Carboline MAOIs - towards a more effective e-liquid

[kinabaloo]

I learned some tricks along the way those times but am waiting on the acid info before doing some more.

Here's my first try responses (as Tescela asked) :

I have noticed something about this that feels rather strange in a way, and also exciting. And I'm wondering if it's really true. But it feels very much true. And why wouldn't it?!

Well, that's a big clue. I want to be sure before I say anything, so I'll give it more time.

Now, the liquid has been replaced fully, I can taste the tobacco - not strong, but my liquid is weak - yet it's more like tobacco than smoking; nicer.

Also, I do feel more relaxed but I also feel that is so hard to be objective about in such a situation. But I felt it before I checked / asked myself, if you see what I mean. It's subtle, and if I am right, it's rather good; not drowsy, not spaced out or such; just the stress / fretting is down. I noticed this preety quickly, and because 'after the fact', seems real. If it is replicable over many days I will claim it real.

In short, no 'wow' in terms of taste or head-effect (but then i do still smoke some analogs and my liquid is weaker than planned).

However, there is something else, something better that it does

Really surprised myself, because I hadn't given it any thought till I noticed. To be honest I was just happy with the process and didnt think much at all about how the end-product would be (I had done a very simple tobacco soak before, so it wasn't completely a new thing). But to the extent that I did think about the end product, when the taste time came, was taste (hopefully a wow taste), and maybe a 'woh' or 'woohoo' or something. But nothing much there, on either point. The relaxation, yes, i think there's something; and maybe excellent for it's subtlety.

But then there's the clincher

Wonder if anyone can deduce it ... (it's so obvious I have to smile)

I have noticed something about this that feels rather strange in a way, and also exciting. And I'm wondering if it's really true. But it feels very much true. And why wouldn't it?!

Well, that's a big clue. I want to be sure before I say anything, so I'll give it more time.

Now, the liquid has been replaced fully, I can taste the tobacco - not strong, but my liquid is weak - yet it's more like tobacco than smoking; nicer.

Also, I do feel more relaxed but I also feel that is so hard to be objective about in such a situation. But I felt it before I checked / asked myself, if you see what I mean. It's subtle, and if I am right, it's rather good; not drowsy, not spaced out or such; just the stress / fretting is down. I noticed this preety quickly, and because 'after the fact', seems real. If it is replicable over many days I will claim it real.

In short, no 'wow' in terms of taste or head-effect (but then i do still smoke some analogs and my liquid is weaker than planned).

However, there is something else, something better that it does

Really surprised myself, because I hadn't given it any thought till I noticed. To be honest I was just happy with the process and didnt think much at all about how the end-product would be (I had done a very simple tobacco soak before, so it wasn't completely a new thing). But to the extent that I did think about the end product, when the taste time came, was taste (hopefully a wow taste), and maybe a 'woh' or 'woohoo' or something. But nothing much there, on either point. The relaxation, yes, i think there's something; and maybe excellent for it's subtlety.

But then there's the clincher ...

Wonder if anyone can deduce it ... (it's so obvious I have to smile)

So, what's special about this new liquid ???

It doesn't taste much different, I don't get a special buzz from it, and yet it is remarkable ...

Maybe no-one can work it out because I'm not quite in the same boat as most people here.

What's remarkable about WTA? The obvious thing really but it just crept up on me - and surprised me; with WTA I don't feel like having a smoke ! And since it's basically a liquid smoke, why would I ? Duh

When i would vape nic liquids it would often make me want to smoke more; didn;t think about that till the last hour or so; but it's obvious in retrospect why.

Today I was just happy to do the extraction process and make it work - 'look at that beautiful amber color'; 'the alkaloids went into the oil and then out again!' Then, well if had a special taste or special buzz, bonus !

Didn't give it a thought that it might do what we had always hoped it would do. Don;t know why I didn;t think of this beforehand, but I didn't.

Getting late, trying to get a good photo of the new liquid, need to give my appraisal of the new liquid, need to finish some work, need to do a few other things, check email, blah blah blah ... reach for a smoke time. But I didn't. and later still didn;t - and I still dont want to. Is this me ??

Even my somewhat half-baked first attempt at WTA does the trick - now that's a great feeling !

And I'm kinda more ashamed that I didnt see it coming than I am of still smoking sme analogs.

Yet now i have first-hand complete confidence in WTA

as opposed to just complete confidence ​

 

[Hotwire]

It has banished the cigarette cravings?

That's understadable, since the wta liquid is essentially a cigarette, just in liquid form. Sounds great to me.

It's like taking vitamin a is not a carrot and the wta liquid sounds like drinking a carrot smoothie instead of eating a carrot - different form of the exact same thing - not a synthetic replacement like vitamins or vaping current nic only juices.

I want some I want some I want some.

Willing to sell me some to try..?

 

[kinabaloo]

It has banished the cigarette cravings?

I want some I want some I want some.

Willing to sell me some to try..?

It was not that well made, I must be honest. The first stage I can do great. But the filtering was insufficient and it clogs up my attys after a while It also ended up too weak as I used only a small amount of tobacco.

But in a day or two we'll hopefully know more and then I'll repeat with more care. It's not difficult at all. I was more in experiment mode than production mode and rushed some stages, that's all.

Anyone can do it

 

[tceight]

It has banished the cigarette cravings?

I want some I want some I want some.

Willing to sell me some to try..?

you know, this might be a grassroots approach as well.
Not selling, but centralized rings of private producer clubs.
I'd be willing to meet up with like minded individuals in the TO area and 'share with fully informed friends'. No way would I ever sell to someone.
if we get enough people making it, this site can put people in touch, and then wider distribution can occur.

 

[VAP3n00b]

Sorry for the noob? But what is wta?

 

[tceight]

Sorry for the noob? But what is wta?

acronym for whole tobbaco alkaloids. The basic premise being that the minor alkaloids besides nicotine are as important or more important than nicotine itself. Not sure who originally coined the term, I first heard it when DVAP was doing his extractions.

 

[VAP3n00b]

acronym for whole tobbaco alkaloids. The basic premise being that the minor alkaloids besides nicotine are as important or more important than nicotine itself. Not sure who originally coined the term, I first heard it when DVAP was doing his extractions.

Thanks for clarifying. I think I need some wtas.

 

[Hotwire]

Well when any of you guys makes a batch you are happy with, let's just say I am willing to be an objective tester if you will, who is willing to cover costs in what would be a joint project involved in researching and developing better e-liquids using wta.

I'm pretty sure perhaps a distillation or filteration and even adding some flavor drops could improve the crude product a lot (re gunking up atty and taste.)

 

[tceight]

Well when any of you guys makes a batch you are happy with, let's just say I am willing to be an objective tester if you will, who is willing to cover costs in what would be a joint project involved in researching and developing better e-liquids using wta.

I'm pretty sure perhaps a distillation or filteration and even adding some flavor drops could improve the crude product a lot (re gunking up atty and taste.)

there is the expertise here to make an incredibly pure product, DVAP has already done it, and also done some objective testing. (ok, subjective... no blind's) What we are attempting in this thread (atm) is to provide an 'adequate' method for people to do it themselves at home, as there is no commercial equivalent, and the laboratory process for 'pure' alkaloids is fraught with dangers for the layman to attempt. As crude as it is, I'm pretty damn proud of what has been accomplished with so little.

if you are a venture capitalist with the funding to start a commercial venture, GO FOR IT!!

 

[Hotwire]

I am neither a venture capitalist nor am I willing to bother to go through the steps you guys have in making this stuff as I have neither the time nor the patience.

i'm just a guy wanting to try the stuff out and hoping some day someone makes it available for me to try.

In the meantime I guess i'll be struck with 50% vape and 50% smoking that I'm at.

 

[slopes]

Thanks for the positive words tceight - and thanks for all the help too.

Are you advancing your established methods with this new trial - or are you steering more towards the kitchen method Dvap described in his trial?

 

[kardenm]

as kin said, not 'toxic'. I posted a paper on here about toxicity of mineral oil. Average consumption in north america is 60 grams a year. For inhalation, the hazard is known as lipoid pneumonia. It would take a substantial amount of oil to make this happen, and it's a physical process not a chemical one.

Thanks tceight and kina. I would assume then that there is not much difference with any of the oils (olive, veg, mineral, etc.), that the physical effect would be about the same. I just needed to know wether vaping small amts during experimental testing would be dangerous. Didn't think it would be but hadn't done any research yet.

 

[tceight]

Thanks for the positive words tceight - and thanks for all the help too.

Are you advancing your established methods with this new trial - or are you steering more towards the kitchen method Dvap described in his trial?

what Dvap did, was copy the initial base/mineral oil extraction to determine the effectiveness.
The rest of his process, was not a 'kitchen' one, but a lab one.
I'm doing the initial process, with some small changes now that I know the mineral oil is better than I thought.
I will then use a 'laboratory process' to get the alkaloids, and measure them.
Then I will redissolve the known quantity into mineral oil, and re extract them, again with a lab process at a higher pH and measure them. If they are the same masses, I will re dissolve them again, and then re extract with a kitchen acid, then back to the lab process to measure them again.
whew.. sounds like a lot more work when I type it out! lol

if everything works out according to plan, then we can write up a simple repeatable process.

right now, I have 49 grams (about 4 packs) of tobacco, 50ml of base solution, and 200ml of oil sitting and soaking. I've got to work for the next couple days, so it will be Sat. when I get back to it again. Should be lots of time to soak up whatever is in there.

edit.. those who have been following may notice the oil is X4 what I would normally use. This is because I am not concerned with 'concentration' at this point, but rather I'm trying to get as much of the total available alkaloids. I'm aiming for about 400mg
this is all scaled up so that the amounts are measurable. Seems such a waste that I won't get to vape this. 4 packs of cigarettes are over 40$ here in Ontario.

 

[kinabaloo]

In my experience, at least with some gentle mashing (but no grinding), the leaf is stripped bare in an hour. This is with extra carbonate powder Plus saturated carbonate solution. The dried leaf is like white dust afterwards. Maybe the efficient migration of the freebased alkaloids into the oil takes longer (?) It seems to me that not having the mix too dry (as well as not too wet) will help in that, by making sure there is good contact between the two liquids. Ultimately a comparative study can confirm or disprove it, but I think an hour is probably long enough (and may have some other benefits).

This is just a note for reference; good luck with your exams or whatever and let's hope for good news come the weekend.

How come the end product will not be vapable? Do you need all of it to do accurate titrations ?

 

[Virk]

Well that depends on how strong the mix is. When I really feel like I've had enough, it can last an hour or so. It's not always a pleasant feeling either... a queasiness can creep up on you.

I'd like to know if the other few people who have tried the WTA are occasional analogue smokers? I say this because i haven't taken one single puff of a real cigarette for six months now... and this stuff really gives me that 'first cigarette' feeling (or how I used to feel as a smoker if I inhaled a cigar). Perhaps for those who still make limited use of cigarettes, the effect of WTA is less pronounced.....

Here are my own observations of using my WTA from snus, and just last week from swedish snus. No cigarettes in 4 months and not a snus user so my first use of WTA literally knocked my socks off. There was a period of a couple days determining the correct strength to use and once I figured that out everything was/is great. Getting that proportion figured out was interesting, try it, have affects like scalp tingling, dizzy, relaxed, etc. then wait until they were gone and try again and find out they really weren't gone yet, so it took a few days.

I don't vape it straight, that was just too 'strong' for me and personally I want to use the least amount as needed in order to satisfy any cravings I may have. I've found this balance for me and it works out to just a few drops per day mixed into my regular ejuice. It's diluted now to the point I get no perceivable side affects but I do still get the (I'm done) feeling and no longer have to chain vape.

From my experience so far, it's not the nicotine that satisfies at all, it's more about the wta, and then add nicotine to the wta and it's compounded even more. My guess is that someone who is still smoking or using snus will have less affects.

A question I am paying attention to now is... is it more addicting? I believe it might be but do not know yet. I have a feeling that the ingredients in the wta are what makes us addicted (mentally). The biggest side affect now is I feel relaxed after vaping and have no desire whatsoever for a cigarette, even during stressful times. This is huge for me as vaping nic alone did not do this.

Anyway I wanted to add this observation to the collective minds in here and I'll keep an eye on my consumption and cravings.

As it is right now, after several different extractions, I have 100ml of concentrated wta in 5 different flavors which at this rate will last years, so I'm pretty happy, not counting the one absolutely horribe tasting bottle of thunders lol.

Oh also, I did try PF as well, it really tastes bad but it did make me very sleepy just from 1 drop, I won't use it again, the wta is my ticket.

 

[kinabaloo]

Here are my own observations of using my WTA from snus, and just last week from swedish snus. No cigarettes in 4 months and not a snus user so my first use of WTA literally knocked my socks off. There was a period of a couple days determining the correct strength to use and once I figured that out everything was/is great. Getting that proportion figured out was interesting, try it, have affects like scalp tingling, dizzy, relaxed, etc. then wait until they were gone and try again and find out they really weren't gone yet, so it took a few days.

I don't vape it straight, that was just too 'strong' for me and personally I want to use the least amount as needed in order to satisfy any cravings I may have. I've found this balance for me and it works out to just a few drops per day mixed into my regular ejuice. It's diluted now to the point I get no perceivable side affects but I do still get the (I'm done) feeling and no longer have to chain vape.

From my experience so far, it's not the nicotine that satisfies at all, it's more about the wta, and then add nicotine to the wta and it's compounded even more. My guess is that someone who is still smoking or using snus will have less affects.

A question I am paying attention to now is... is it more addicting? I believe it might be but do not know yet. I have a feeling that the ingredients in the wta are what makes us addicted (mentally). The biggest side affect now is I feel relaxed after vaping and have no desire whatsoever for a cigarette, even during stressful times. This is huge for me as vaping nic alone did not do this.

Anyway I wanted to add this observation to the collective minds in here and I'll keep an eye on my consumption and cravings.

As it is right now, after several different extractions, I have 100ml of concentrated wta in 5 different flavors which at this rate will last years, so I'm pretty happy, not counting the one absolutely horribe tasting bottle of thunders lol.

Oh also, I did try PF as well, it really tastes bad but it did make me very sleepy just from 1 drop, I won't use it again, the wta is my ticket.

Excellent report Virk !

I think every point is spot on. Besides, it's a well-written report and best of all, it is so encouraging; key point is, as I found, it really does hit the mark and end the craving for a smoke.

Point raised that need to go in notes to final write-up:

* Everyone will need to find their level; and that will likely involve some ratio of the WTA with nornal nicotine-only e-liquid. This could vary quite widely and the amount of WTA will likely be lower for those who have been off tobacco / snus for some time. As with getting nic level right, it will take a little careful adjustments. Slopes found that too.

Almost certainly the satiation is correlated with it being more 'addictive' - it works because it is an effective alternative - but a far safer one; the problem is not the addiction per se, but all the baggage that comes with smoking - the combustion toxins etc.

I have been mulling whether there is a difference between relaxation and drowsiness (is drowsiness just scaled up relaxation or something else; that was my main reservation about PF, apart from the fact that it couldn't be as 'complete').

Any noticeable difference between 'standard' snus and the Swedish version ?

~~~

"a few drops per day" - that is a really low ratio of WTA to nic-only, around 5-10% WTA. Even though you are more a WTA-needing person than a nic-needing one (like me). Very interesting. What I made was somewhere no higher than 5mg/ml, yet it still worked. This happily also suggests that WTA could be rather economical and well worth the effort (though it's not a difficult procedure to carry out).

~~~

btw, what acid did you use? And any idea of mg/ml strength of your end-product?

 

[Virk]

Strangely, I prefer the regular snus vs swedish, but that's just based on taste. I haven't noticed a difference in strength, they seem the same to me.

I know this much, it works for me, and such a low 'dose' or concentration, it's really unbelievable. Now to see if I want more as time goes on is what I'm watching for now, I expect it will happen.

edit: And yes, it's a very weak amount I am using, this was my goal. My concentration is 20% wta 80% distilled water, I then dilute this about 6 drops of nic juice to 1 drop wta for non regular use and 10 to 1 for a daily mix, so... that 100ml is effectively 1000ml. A little goes a long way indeed.

correction... I don't actually know it's 20% / 80%, thats actually incorrect, it's 100% distilled water.

 

[Virk]

And now I'll just confuse myself with my edits. My concentration is 100% distilled water with the wta in it haha, does that make sense? I then dilute it 6 to 1 for a strong vape and 10 or 12 to 1 for a daily.

And now it's bedtime, be back tomorrow night...

...no acid... i used only distilled water then filtered it like crazy, per my post two weeks ago.
Nic strength in the concentrate is maybe 4mg (negligible) depending on the particular snus used. The other ingredients, I have no idea, you guys are suppose to know that stuff. My extraction is 1ml per snus, and recovery after filtering is pretty close to all of it, maybe a 20% loss of water.

~one last thing then I'm off... I sent wta to someone who follows this thread, we'll see if he/she replies about it on Friday or Saturday.

 

[kinabaloo]

I was thinking more of mg alkaloids / per ml water but that's a bit complicated to assess because it means knowing or guestimating the alkaloids in the snus (somwhere around 2% by weight), the effeciency of the extraction (hard to say, anywhere from 25% to 90%), and the volume of acidified water at the last stage; with some losses also through parts of layers left behind.

In my case I roughly calculated my yield as 2ml of 3-5mg/ml wta. Obviously this figure changes the ratio figure, but anyway, we can take it that you use much less WTA than nic-liquid, so unless your ni-liquid is very low in nicotine, this suggests that for you, the ratio of wta to nic is on the low side (more nic, less wta).

Everyone will be different but having some idea of the average can serve as a useful guide - start lower than that and see.

 

[kinabaloo]

And now I'll just confuse myself with my edits. My concentration is 100% distilled water with the wta in it haha, does that make sense? I then dilute it 6 to 1 for a strong vape and 10 or 12 to 1 for a daily.

And now it's bedtime, be back tomorrow night...

...no acid... i used only distilled water then filtered it like crazy, per my post two weeks ago.
Nic strength in the concentrate is maybe 4mg (negligible) depending on the particular snus used. The other ingredients, I have no idea, you guys are suppose to know that stuff. My extraction is 1ml per snus, and recovery after filtering is pretty close to all of it, maybe a 20% loss of water.

~one last thing then I'm off... I sent wta to someone who follows this thread, we'll see if he/she replies about it on Friday or Saturday.

I'm remembering now !

So it is not the base-acid extraction method, justa water soak. You'll have more 'gunk' that way and maybe less alkaloids but it's interesting to know it still works. Downside might be that as the gunk build up in the atty, it starts to 'smoke a bit' - maybe barely noticeable, but also will affect the wicking/flow and may also shorten the atty life.

Anyway, look forward to the next report.

~~~

I know much of the gunk will be in suspension and you filtered carefull, so what else is there might not be so great; after all, not every alkaloid will be desirable. However, I think of the two, reducing to just alkaloids will be better.