It's kinda chicken and egg. The quantity we can practically measure is pH, so lower or high pH at some concentration says something about the Ka and pKa.
You can figure out one knowing the other, and vice versa.
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It's kinda chicken and egg. The quantity we can practically measure is pH, so lower or high pH at some concentration says something about the Ka and pKa.
You can figure out one knowing the other, and vice versa.
Try this: whether protonation occurs depends on the pKa, how much occurs depends on the pH (not just how many molecules are around but their concentration) - right ?
Yep. As mentioned earlier, you just need enough millimoles of acid to protonate the base. In the case of nicotine, you have that singly at resulting pH 5.8 and doubly at resulting pH 1. Nice thing is, a weak acid protonating a base will result in further dissociation of the acid since the protonation of the base serves to drop the free H+ concentration... end result, equal millimoles of weak acid and nicotine will have a resulting pH of ~ 5.8 (all the nicotine is single protonated by all the acid). This is the reason that acetic acid can be used instead of strong acid in the titration to determine nicotine.
We're getting at the issue. In the end it's about millimoles (or you could say moles) but millimoles is often a useful unit.
If you have 1 gram of nicotine, you have 6.2 millimoles of nicotine. It will be single protonated to 100% by exactly 6.2 millimoles of monoprotic acid whether strong or weak at which time the pH is ~ 5.8 (see nicotine protonation graph). Any additional millimoles of acid will drive the pH down while simultaneously driving the double protonation up.
It's a headache to wrap around it.
I think I got it. All about the equibriums.
Thanks for that DVap. I;m much more used to digital logic; this requires a different sort of model. But I think I got it, finally.
On the web, chemistry is either very simple or inpenetrable.
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After several days of vaping WTA, I still have the nagging question... what if this process has only succeeded in concentrating a super-high level of nicotine within the juice whilst the actual alkaloids present are playing a minor role in its effect? I wonder about this because I do have some high-nicotine-strength commercial juice and at the times when i have overdone vaping that stuff, the 'too much' feeling has been similar.
On another note, one of my manual batteries has developed a fault resulting in it being stuck in the 'on' position (I hope it isn't the acid in my WTA juice that is the cause). The happy consequence of this has been that the C-E2 atty bubbles away heating juice on its own accord and a slight drag on the device produces plenty of WTA vapour and feels pretty much as close to smoking a real cigarette as it's possible to get! I disconnect the battery by unscrewing it a bit and it soon runs down.. but it's a great experience.
On another note, one of my manual batteries has developed a fault resulting in it being stuck in the 'on' position (I hope it isn't the acid in my WTA juice that is the cause). The happy consequence of this has been that the C-E2 atty bubbles away heating juice on its own accord and a slight drag on the device produces plenty of WTA vapour and feels pretty much as close to smoking a real cigarette as it's possible to get! I disconnect the battery by unscrewing it a bit and it soon runs down.. but it's a great experience.
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I would explain your effects by pointing out that one of the likely main effects of the other alkaloids is that their behaviour as MAO inhibitors. Nicotine boosts dopamine (and other messengers such as serotonin) and MAO acts to bring the lebels back yo equilibrium. So an OD of either will have a common effect - an extra high level of dopamine. It would take longer to clear if OD on the other alkaloids.
"On another note, one of my manual batteries has developed a fault resulting in it being stuck in the 'on' position"
Hmmm, some relationship between your two points perhaps ?!
I can picture the scenario and see its good-side though
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I believe this is it (virk method): http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/nicotine/44958-so-we-getting-we-not-nicotine-252.html
(are we getting it thread, p. 252.)
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Hmmm, some relationship between your two points perhaps ?!
I can picture the scenario and see its good-side though
The rogue battery only happened today... at which point only very small 'quick' drags were needed to satisfy - so the relationship you hint at is a tenuous one
Joking aside, it's worth wondering if wta-based juices would in fact create the need for a whole new type of e-cigarette in which it can best be vaped. In my experience with wta, the accent is very much on the quality of its vapour rather than its quantity. With wta, there is not so much of a need for large, power-hungry devices that belch out every-greater quantities of steam in an effort to compensate for the missing alkaloids in the juices being used. One common experience of wta juice is the ease at which it is possible to have too much (and put the device aside) and how similar that experience in itself is to using analogues.
This morning's enjoyable experience with my broken battery started me wondering if an ideal wta ecig might have timed 10 minute sessions (with an auto cut off) during which time its C-E2 atty 'simmered' on half-coil power before 'boiling' into full power at each inhalation. I think for me, that would be approaching the most perfect vape.
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Thanks, kardenm! I thought I remembered something about your methodology being extremely simple relative to the others discussed here, and this confirms it.
At the time of that post, DVap expressed some concerns about the purity (not surprisingly), but a lot has transpired in this thread in the last couple of weeks (including the emergence of some potential flexibility in DVap risk/benefit perspective), so perhaps it would be helpful to get current comments from DVap, as well as Kinabaloo, tceight, slopes...and the rest of the group, because this approach seems so simple that -- if it facilitates complete discontinuation of analog use -- perhaps it is a short-term methodology to embrace.
I'm guessing that part of this evaluation process would be for others here to replicate this methodology and report on their vaping experience relative to "purer" forms of WTA (with DVap's methodology presumably representing the other end of the "purity" spectrum from Virk's).
Thoughts?
The weekend is nigh, and this would be an easy process for some to run concurrently with the other approaches?
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The rogue battery only happened today... at which point only very small 'quick' drags were needed to satisfy - so the relationship you hint at is a tenuous one
Joking aside, it's worth wondering if wta-based juices would in fact create the need for a whole new type of e-cigarette in which it can best be vaped. In my experience with wta, the accent is very much on the quality of its vapour rather than its quantity. With wta, there is not so much of a need for large, power-hungry devices that belch out every-greater quantities of steam in an effort to compensate for the missing alkaloids in the juices being used. One common experience of wta juice is the ease at which it is possible to have too much (and put the device aside) and how similar that experience in itself is to using analogues.
This morning's enjoyable experience with my broken battery started me wondering if an ideal wta ecig might have timed 10 minute sessions (with an auto cut off) during which time its C-E2 atty 'simmered' on half-coil power before 'boiling' into full power at each inhalation. I think for me, that would be approaching the most perfect vape.
A new type of PV... This is a good reason for the profit-driven PV manufacturers to perk up and take an interest in WTA eliquid.
Just to be clear, the method was used by "Virk".
I have also been vaping some extract made this way but have not yet noticed any dramatic effect like Virk. However it is too early to give any definitive report plus I do smoke some analogs still (3-5 per day) so the effect may be harder to notice. I do like the taste it adds. All I can say so far.
Very different logic! I should mention, and I think I have before, that I am really not an "acid/base" type of chemist, so I'm not immune to applying the wrong basic principle while forgetting to consider another. This isn't really my thing.
The point of 100% pyrrolidine protonation and 0% pyridine protonation happens to be the titration endpoint for my titrimetric nicotine determination where nicotine and acid exist in equimolar concentrations. Double protonation doesn't begin until single protonation is at 100%. The reason that this neutralization point falls on the acidic side of pH 7, I should know off the top of my head, but it's not coming to me. A real acid/base chemist would be a handy thing around here.
Oh well.. Off to the mountains overnight to ponder whether I should let the surgeon fool around with my insides.
I hope things turn out OK DVap. I've had a pain in the side of my neck for over a year now... feels like a permanent semi-slipped disc. Most of the time it's in the background and then it'll go through a patch of it giving me trouble. I haven't sought any medical advice on it yet because I was sort of hoping it would eventually go away... but maybe I should.
Thanks for linking that Kardenm, it's been a crazy week at work, no time here. I had to chuckle at 'the Virk method' haha.
The simple distilled water snus soak just seemed too easy not to try, so I did. Then I spent several days figuring out a way to filter the liquid. I found a combination of polyfil, cotton, and paper coffee filters used to strain the liquid by force through a large syringe works pretty good. I'm sure I'm losing some of the good stuff but at least it's cleaner and still works.
In the most concentrated form the wta effects on me were big, still are. I think it had a lot to do with the fact that I had not used any tobacco product in 3 months so I was not getting any MAOIs at all and then hit my system with wta and it was very strong.
Now that I've been using it for 3 weeks, the effects are less, but then again I'm not pushing it, I'm using the least amount possible and still satisfied with the results. I still forsee that as time goes on I will build up a resistance and want more, just like when I smoked. Actually I think this has already begun to happen, I found myself adding another drop to premixed liquid, then wanting another and not having any side affects but still satisfied. With that said, I still vape less often when using wta.
I just now doubled up my wta strength and tried it, I'm definitely building up a resistance to it but do not 'need' to double it up, was just testing it out while posting here. And yeah, I can still feel it, just not as pronounced. 5 minutes later added a stronger nic and the effects hit harder.
I really like the vape and the taste from some of the flavors but I'm pretty sure the nicotine level is extremely low, there is no TH whatsoever until I add my own nic. to the mix.
I have no doubt that this works and works very well. My guess is that it works better on those who gave up tobacco completely and are struggling with what they are missing. For those who are ok with nic only juice, I would not recommend even trying this, I mean, why bother adding more addictive vaping if you don't need it.
Just wanted to add this update with more of my observations to this thread.
Thanks for the update Virk.
The distilled water soak probably captures about 30% of the alkaloids. If you can think of a way to alkalize the water in a way that does not add undue amount of unwanted stuff to the mix, you could raise the amount captured substantially.
The distilled water soak probably captures about 30% of the alkaloids. If you can think of a way to alkalize the water in a way that does not add undue amount of unwanted stuff to the mix, you could raise the amount captured substantially.
Yeah I'm sure I could raise the strength but in all honesty I see no reason to do so, it's just not necessary unless you want to mass market for large quantities. As it is now, I could over supply a vendor myself with these results, and it still needs to be diluted, at least for me.
But the point here is the potency of it already. At 30% best guess and I still dilute it another 70% after that for my own use! That's impressive isn't it? Or am I really just a light weight after stopping all tobacco use?
edit...I wanted to add this... 3 weeks and I've not even thought of or considered a real cigarette, that's success in my book!
But the point here is the potency of it already. At 30% best guess and I still dilute it another 70% after that for my own use! That's impressive isn't it? Or am I really just a light weight after stopping all tobacco use?
edit...I wanted to add this... 3 weeks and I've not even thought of or considered a real cigarette, that's success in my book!
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