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DVap. ABSOLUTELY NOT a shot at you or anyone else on here. My apologies for the missunderstanding. I really appreciate all you have done to make this happen. I see you as the main science guy behind these developments at least in that you have the ability and willingness to do some real lab work and analysis. I was mainly "taking a shot" at myself. I like to experiment but find it difficult to follow up with reports let alone try to teach it to the non scientific readers. Too many other things going on right now for me.
Please don't be offended. I didn't mean to even imply anything negative. Was just trying to find a way to give kina some credit. He tries to be modest but obviously spends alot of time going over and thinking about all this stuff to the benifit of the rest of us (as do you and some others).
Thanks again for all your efforts.
No. They are dissolved. I couldn't centrifuge them out to save my life.
We'll put it down to an unfortunate word choice along with a touch of hypersensitivity.
So isn't that the problem right there.
One can dissolve 100g of freebase alkaloids in 1 liter of water.
So the idea that as organc molecules they will prefer to be dissolved in the organic solvent (the oil) seems quite wrong.
So perhaps the only thing we can do is keep the carbonate solution to an absolute minimum volume-wise compared to the oil.
Lot's of catching up to do here!
good to see the activity, but makes it tough to keep up!
I think it's a combination of the few fish/big ocean effect as well as the inherent properties of mineral oil.
The more I mess around with it, the more my mental model of what's going on changes to picture it as a big pile of noodles. If you were to fractionally distill it, there is a large component of solids in there, and I believe these long chains contribute 'slowing things down' in transfers.
without washing between steps, there is a LOT of crap still in there. In this last batch, I ended up washing 3 times with basic water, and once with oil after the acid phase.
I evaporated the basic water down, and was left with over half a gram of brown goo. After seeing this, all my extractions will include washing, despite the probable alkaloid losses.
however, this is NOT pure water, and no doubt there is some. This is just harm reduction, not elimination.
The mineral oil, well I'm sure you get some alkanes in the mix when you smoke analogs too.
What is my greater concern, as said ad nauseum, is to keep from adding anything other than known 'safe' chemicals in the process. This entire process would be far easier I removed this stipulation.
What must be kept in mind is that this is not a one time thing, and there is possibility/likelyhood of vaping this for years.... so for instance, someone decides to use lye from the hardware store. It has trace levels of heavy metals, and they accumulate over time. You might very well have been better off smoking.[/QUOTE]
I'll take that bet! After boiling down the crap, I KNOW what's still in there.
As it's such a higher alkaloid content, I'm assuming that the tobacco strains used are chosen for taste, and maybe profile as well.
good to see the activity, but makes it tough to keep up!
no, VG wasn't added at this point.
I think it's a combination of the few fish/big ocean effect as well as the inherent properties of mineral oil.
The more I mess around with it, the more my mental model of what's going on changes to picture it as a big pile of noodles. If you were to fractionally distill it, there is a large component of solids in there, and I believe these long chains contribute 'slowing things down' in transfers.
yes, the obvious removal is the actual plant material.
without washing between steps, there is a LOT of crap still in there. In this last batch, I ended up washing 3 times with basic water, and once with oil after the acid phase.
I evaporated the basic water down, and was left with over half a gram of brown goo. After seeing this, all my extractions will include washing, despite the probable alkaloid losses.
I found this info once, and the miscibility of oil in pure water at STP was insignificant, (less than 200ppb)
however, this is NOT pure water, and no doubt there is some. This is just harm reduction, not elimination.
The mineral oil, well I'm sure you get some alkanes in the mix when you smoke analogs too.
What is my greater concern, as said ad nauseum, is to keep from adding anything other than known 'safe' chemicals in the process. This entire process would be far easier I removed this stipulation.
What must be kept in mind is that this is not a one time thing, and there is possibility/likelyhood of vaping this for years.... so for instance, someone decides to use lye from the hardware store. It has trace levels of heavy metals, and they accumulate over time. You might very well have been better off smoking.[/QUOTE]
And mine. My primary goal was a selfish one, and I assume those risks for myself.
I'll take that bet! After boiling down the crap, I KNOW what's still in there.
Nice find. I was looking for something like this. I'd like to see the profile of Rustica in comparison to nicotiana tabacum.
As it's such a higher alkaloid content, I'm assuming that the tobacco strains used are chosen for taste, and maybe profile as well.
a lesson learned only by 'doing'. I'd have nickels, and a lot less wasted tobacco.
yeah, I feel that. A few times this thread has started down that road, and each time it does I feel like deleting my account.
It could be that the vegetable oil ends up being far superior. That's a next step, after the mineral oil is quantified, then we can add another easter egg.
Your comments show a complete lack of understanding of the history and development behind this method.
Like most things, the final simplicity hides the ammount of effort that went into it. You think all I did was take an existing procedure, and apply it to tobacco alkaloids? I came to ECF because the vaping wasn't 'doing it for me',
I found DVAP's WTA, and the incredible amount of effort he had put into both the extraction and the subsequent testing, and wanted it for myself. Having no chemistry background, and wanting a 'safe' process.... lets just say it was a long, multithreaded and expensive journey, with a lot of research and discussion, to get to the point of bringing it all together into a fully described kitchen safe 'method' posted back in August of last year, and a subsequent post describing the 'upgrade' to citric acid later on.
guess those were just 'useless posts of lab results needing to be turned into useful information'.
I agree that Kin does an incredible amount of research, more than you know. He's even spent time researching some stuff for me unrelated to this. I've nothing but respect for what he has accomplished here.
if you want to "give kina some credit", great, by all means. Text is cheap. but try to do so in a way that doesn't disparage others, or the others may just walk away. No one is being paid to be here or to contribute.
interesting point, and aligns with the original premise that 'alkanes suck'(since disproved) and may actually work to our advantage, coming back to minimizing the amount of water in the first basic soak, to maximize mechanical effeciency and put simple diffusion to work for us.
and I thought it was a shot at me. lol
I bet you geeky chemist types following along just 'cringe' at the whole battleaxe approach. lol
it is a strange marriage of different principles coming together in a non standard fashion, using substandard methods and compounds.
As the partition coefficient isn't all that great, then the physical may be just as important as the chemical in the subsequent manipulations?
This is after 3 basic water washes, and 1 oil wash.
no more colour was coming out at all, and is as 'clean' as I can get it.
Still lots of colour, and assuming the ~200mg in there, this is 5mg/ml acidic water.
It's crystal clear, should have wiped off the fingerprints.
The water beside it is there for comparison.
now you are coming around to my way of thinking!
might I suggest, oh.... 0.5 to 1 ml per gram?
" you want the tobacco barely moist, not wet at all......"
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now you are coming around to my way of thinking!
might I suggest, oh.... 0.5 to 1 ml per gram?
" you want the tobacco barely moist, not wet at all......"
But it must be enough to reach all the tobacco.
I play it by eye anddidnt keep track of how much I put in, but those figures are likely close.
While it might seem a good idea to have more oil, it would be important to add it later i think, let the carbonate solution do its job first; otherwise the oil could prevent contact of the carbonate and the tobacco. Allow 1 hour for carbonate solution only ?
~~~
ps : I was always in the minimal carbonate solution camp.
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how I do it,
is add a bit of tobacco to the container, then add a few drops, bit more, etc.
I've also moistened the tobacco, then added the dry carbonate before grinding up the whole mix.
I let sit for about 20-30 min, usually as long as it takes to get the rest of the stuff ready.
If you think about it, even 'dry' tobacco has a lot of water in it, and you don't need enough to dissolve 'all' the alkaloids, it just has to act as an intermediary.
is add a bit of tobacco to the container, then add a few drops, bit more, etc.
I've also moistened the tobacco, then added the dry carbonate before grinding up the whole mix.
I let sit for about 20-30 min, usually as long as it takes to get the rest of the stuff ready.
If you think about it, even 'dry' tobacco has a lot of water in it, and you don't need enough to dissolve 'all' the alkaloids, it just has to act as an intermediary.
Not what I meant at all. I was trying to say I do appreciate all the background and history and work, yours included tceight.
"You think all I did was take an existing procedure, and apply it to tobacco alkaloids? guess those were just 'useless posts of lab results needing to be turned into useful information'"
No. Never said or meant any such thing. Sorry you all misunderstood. Never meant to imply lab results were usless, quite the opposite. Geez. I really feel bad that you were offended. Should have kept my mouth shut. You guys are my heros. Thanks for your effort tceight, Dvap, slopes, kina, others.
maybe I am sensitive to it. The same sorta thing happens to me work, some middle manager comes and blows off data from a huge pile of work , summing it up in one line (inaccurate to the point of wrong) in 'his' report... then pat's himself on the back self amazed at his capacity as a manager, and takes a vacation while those in the trenches slog on. I'm possibly projecting my hostility at that mindset on you. Sorry.
something somewhere has gone wrong....
I just basified that crystal clear, well washed extract, in an attempt to move it back to organic.
Nothing seems to be happening, there is no colour change at all.
I'm wondering if all that cleanup has taken out all the alkaloids!! :-S
I just basified that crystal clear, well washed extract, in an attempt to move it back to organic.
Nothing seems to be happening, there is no colour change at all.
I'm wondering if all that cleanup has taken out all the alkaloids!! :-S
Saw something similar last night. Had 10mls dirty, water/snus extract combined with some leftover acidified water from oil extraction. Very dark brown. Added satd carbonate soln till pH about 9, then 20-30 mls mineral oil (heavy), stirred for a while, let separate. No color at all in the oil. Not at all what I expected. ?? There is a relatively large amount of water for probable amount of alkaloids. Maybe to much water? Haven't had chance to mess with since. May get back to it tonight. Probably just start over.
assuming a partition coefficient of say 4:1 (I hope that's worst case)... and I washed 3 times with 1/2 volume, and assuming 200mg to start,
1st wash, I could have lost 25mg.
2cd wash, another 22mg
3rd wash, another 19mg
so a total of 66mg, I should still have ~ 130mg left.... I hope. :-S
1st wash, I could have lost 25mg.
2cd wash, another 22mg
3rd wash, another 19mg
so a total of 66mg, I should still have ~ 130mg left.... I hope. :-S
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